Mary was probably a nice person???

Are you saying that Mary was predestined for salvation and did not have a free will choice in the matter? That seems to contradict RCC doctrine.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Are you saying that Mary was predestined for salvation and did not have a free will choice in the matter? That seems to contradict RCC doctrine.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Not interested in answering my questions or continuing to defend the indefensible? Ok. See ya.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Time to cut and run with unanswered questions.

 

Interesting thought. If I am alone, and tell my deceased father "I wish you were still here. But you're not. You're with the Lord now, and I miss you." Am I engaging in idolatry?

Just a thought.

 

The BIBLE teaches what you hold most important by word or deed is what you worship.

that is how money can become Idolatry.

I have been in RC churches wgere they have Jesus bowwing down to Mary.

you to San Antonio across from the court house is such a church.

 

Interesting thought. If I am alone, and tell my deceased father "I wish you were still here. But you're not. You're with the Lord now, and I miss you." Am I engaging in idolatry?

Just a thought. </font>[/QUOTE]Tell me. Do you refer to your dad as Holy? Do you have a theology that says he was concieved without sin? Do you ask him to pray for you? Do you implore him to be your salvation? Somehow, I doubt you do. Apples and Oranges.

Joseph Botwinick

 

No, no, no, and no. And yes, it's somewhat apples and oranges.

The crux I was getting at is, if someone talks to a person who is physically dead, but is with the Lord, is that idolatry? Such as a relative.

 

But Mary's prayers are more powerful, right?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Are you expecting an answer? Do you believe he has superior powers to mediate between you and God? Do you believe that the instructive prayer from Jesus, "OUR FATHER---", is referring to someone other than God?

In short, this prayer tells us to pray TO GOD, not to a saint, angel, relative etc.

I have on occasion remembered some misdeed or ugliness that I did against a now dead relative, and I have prayed for God to tell that person that I am now sorry, and wish forgiveness for the transgression of the past, but in no way am I praying TO the recepient of my plea!

Personally, I think that satan is ALMOST as pleased with prayers TO anyone other than God as he would be for prayers to himself; JMHO!

 

No, no, and no.

I've asked a question, and received a reply in the form of a question. Can someone please just answer my questions with a yes or no, sans caveat. I'm in no danger of deifying Mary, or anyone deceased. Just trying to get specifics.

Good point, and I concur that your avenue was just. However, if you had called out to that deceased person "I'm sorry for having sinned againt you", is that in any way idolatrous? I don't see how it would be.

 

If this context is your frame of reference, then I agree with you!

I mistook your comment to mean "praying" to a dead relative/friend; for that I apologise!

 

No offense taken. THanks for your input.

 

you know I see worship in heaven but never prays. us God wor the Bible as a ref.

the close I could find is:

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.


I have always taken this as the prayers of us saint here on earth.

 

Joseph says:

But Mary's prayers are more powerful, right?

Let me ask you this, do you believe in the power of one interceding for another? Like when I pray on behalf of someone else. I am assuming this is a yes.

And my other assumption is that you would agree that some intercessions are more powerful then others.

Let me explain, if I ask you to do something on behalf of your kids, you can probably say yes or no. But if your mother asks you to something for your kids, I am hoping that you will give your mother's request a higher consideration then mine.

As a matter of fact, I am hoping that you will give your mother's request the highest priority.

Common sense to me.

So the issue is not mary idolotry,the issue here is that if someone in heaven can intercede on our behalf. Are the people in heaven still part of the mystical body? is the intercession of someone in heaven more powerful then someone on earth? I would say yes.

We catholics beleive in that, everyone here on earth and/or in heaven are and will be forever part of the mystical body and can intercede for each other.

You can have your deceased husband, wife, John the Apostle, Jude, Peter or Paul intercede on your behalf.

You can have people that are in heaven, closer to God, pray for you. Or you can have me, a sinner, pray for you. It doesn't matter, we are all part of the mystical body of Christ. But, I bet their prayers are more powerful then mine.

Or you can just, simply, ask His mother to pray for you.

Thanks
Armando

Thanks

Armando