Mary

[Matt Janes]

In my early days but I believe I have grown out of that and am now watching, waiting for the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

I have on some occasions in my youth experienced being "filled with the Holy Ghost".
But it was an experience to bring me to a greater place :

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

HankD

Well I pray I could reach your level of spiritual growth and maturity... I'm still at the charismatic baptism of the holy ghost stage.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I addressed the vain repetition verse in the OP. There are prayers in heaven recited over and over again night and day

Matt, it's not the repetition that is wrong. I've got some former students who are Islamic that I pray for all the time!! It's the vanity of the words that's wrong not their repetitiveness. VAIN repetition. Meaningless repetitions. Words that do and mean nothing the first time let alone the 20th time.

This is embarrassing, but when I was about 10 years old, my mother would ask me to pray at the Sunday dinners we had at home. I know now why she asked me and not my father who usually prayed. She was trying to learn if I even KNEW how to pray. For a few weeks, here is what I said verbatim: "Dear God, thank you for the birds and the trees and the flowers. Thank you for the mommas and the daddies and the teachers and the preachers and everybody - amen."

After a few weeks of that, she and my father knew that I most certainly did not know how to pray. I was just babbling vain repetitions. Words that were meaningless in their rote recitation and not their repetition. That prayer was meaningless the first time because I was just saying to my PARENTS what I thought they wanted to hear. I was not speaking TO God.

I have an elderly friend who shared with me once that when she prays, sits in her living room and pulls up an empty chair. She prays and talks to God as if he is sitting in that empty chair.

There are many ways to have a private prayer time with God. The use of meaningless words repeated over and over in rote repetition is not one of them.

But the use of speaking to God about the same subject multiple times, such as praying for a specific lost person or praying for a specific medical problem, is perfectly fine. God said so when Jesus gave the parable of the persistent widow in Luke 18:1-8.

It isn't the repeating. It's that the words having no meaning and never did to begin with.

 

[Matt Janes]

Matt, it's not the repetition that is wrong. I've got some former students who are Islamic that I pray for all the time!! It's the vanity of the words that's wrong not their repetitiveness. VAIN repetition. Meaningless repetitions. Words that do and mean nothing the first time let alone the 20th time.

This is embarrassing, but when I was about 10 years old, my mother would ask me to pray at the Sunday dinners we had at home. I know now why she asked me and not my father who usually prayed. She was trying to learn if I even KNEW how to pray. For a few weeks, here is what I said verbatim: "Dear God, thank you for the birds and the trees and the flowers. Thank you for the mommas and the daddies and the teachers and the preachers and everybody - amen."

After a few weeks of that, she and my father knew that I most certainly did not know how to pray. I was just babbling vain repetitions. Words that were meaningless in their rote recitation and not their repetition. That prayer was meaningless the first time because I was just saying to my PARENTS what I thought they wanted to hear. I was not speaking TO God.

I have an elderly friend who shared with me once that when she prays, sits in her living room and pulls up an empty chair. She prays and talks to God as if he is sitting in that empty chair.

There are many ways to have a private prayer time with God. The use of meaningless words repeated over and over in rote repetition is not one of them.

But the use of speaking to God about the same subject multiple times, such as praying for a specific lost person or praying for a specific medical problem, is perfectly fine. God said so when Jesus gave the parable of the persistent widow in Luke 18:1-8.

It isn't the repeating. It's that the words having no meaning and never did to begin with.

Each hail Mary is quoting from scripture and a blessing of Jesus. Those who sow in blessings shall reap blessings says scripture. I see nothing vain about quoting scripture and blessing Jesus and his mother.

Scripture says all generations will call Mary blessed

 

[HankD]

Matt, there is a difference between repetition and persistence.

Repetition is rote, like rattling off 10 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers for penance.

Persistence - read about it in

Luke 18:1-8 New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Persistent Widow

18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”


HankD

 

[Matt Janes]

The Catholic Church condemns the worship of anybody or anything other than God:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in theimage and likeness of God":
There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Each hail Mary is quoting from scripture and a blessing of Jesus. Those who sow in blessings shall reap blessings says scripture. I see nothing vain about quoting scripture and blessing Jesus and his mother.

Scripture says all generations will call Mary blessed

Even rotely quoting scripture can be in vain.

And I do not see where the Bible says "Hail, Mary full of grace." I see the rest - but not that.

And those questions I asked you initially about the rosary - well those descriptions of Mary are not biblical.

She is not our intercessor. Jesus alone is.
She does not pray for us. She is deceased.
She is not the Holy Queen. God alone is holy.
She does not pray for us. Again, she is deceased.
She does not make us worthy. The blood of Christ alone makes us worthy.
She was not a perpetual virgin. The scripture says otherwise. "Joseph did not have relations with Mary UNTIL Jesus was born." Matthew 1:25

I cannot understand reciting over and over something that contradicts scripture.

Besides, if quoting a blessing from one person to another in the Bible is going to do something for a living human being, then why not quote repetitively the other blessings people in the Bible give each other? Why focus on Mary who cannot hear us. She is deceased.

 

[Matt Janes]

Even rotely quoting scripture can be in vain.

And I do not see where the Bible says "Hail, Mary full of grace." I see the rest - but not that.

And those questions I asked you initially about the rosary - well those descriptions of Mary are not biblical.

She is not our intercessor. Jesus alone is.
She does not pray for us. She is deceased.
She is not the Holy Queen. God alone is holy.
She does not pray for us. Again, she is deceased.
She does not make us worthy. The blood of Christ alone makes us worthy.
She was not a perpetual virgin. The scripture says otherwise. "Joseph did not have relations with Mary UNTIL Jesus was born." Matthew 1:25

I cannot understand reciting over and over something that contradicts scripture.

Besides, if quoting a blessing from one person to another in the Bible is going to do something for a living human being, then why not quote repetitively the other blessings people in the Bible give each other? Why focus on Mary who cannot hear us. She is deceased.

Mary has appeared to many people and many miracles have been linked to the Rosary.

I have personally experienced much Grace from God by reciting the Rosary, and if I give up that devotion it will seriously damage my mental and spiritual health. I've seen it happen before.

And the angel Gabriel said to her "hail full of grace".... She is full of grace and I've experienced that I am given some of those Graces when I recite the Rosary.

 

[HankD]

The Catholic Church condemns the worship of anybody or anything other than God:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in theimage and likeness of God":
There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

there is an old Native American saying "white man speak with forked tongue".

While the church of Rome says one thing it practices another.

HankD

 

[Adonia]

5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 2

When you yourself pray for others, you are "mediating" for them with God. Dear God, please help my friend Harry with his difficulties. Hey, why isn't Harry going directly to God himself, why are you getting involved?

 

[Adonia]

Can you cite the passage where that direct quote is please?

May I ask?

• Do you believe the words of the rosary that Mary can pray for you and that her prayers make you worthy?
• Do you believe the words of the rosary that Mary is our is your advocate and can show mercy to you?
• Do you believe the words of the rosary that Mary is the Holy Queen?
• Do you believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin?

These are the teachings of the rosary. Where is their scriptural documentation?

Do you have a problem with meditating on any of the following?

1. The Baptism of Jesus
2. The first miracle at the wedding in Cana.
3. Jesus's words about the Kingdom of God.
4. Jesus's transfiguration.
5. Jesus sacrifice at the Last Supper.
6. The angel Gabriel announcing to Mary that she would carry the Redeemer.
7. The day that Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth.
8. The birth of Jesus
9.The day Jesus was brought to the Temple after He was born.
10. The time Jesus was found by His parents in the Temple.
11. Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane.
12. The scourging of Jesus.
13. Jesus crowned with thorns.
14. Jesus carrying His cross.
15. The crucifixion of Jesus.
16. The resurrection of Jesus.
17. Jesus's ascension into heaven.
18. The descent of the Holy Spirit.

So there we have it, 18 times where the emphasis of the prayer is on Jesus Christ, His coming, and the Holy Spirit - all taken directly from the Scriptures. The 19th mystery is the Assumption of the Blessed Mother which orthodoxy teaches and I assume you would wholeheartedly reject and then the 20th, where direct from Revelation 12, 1 the Church has interpreted as Mary, Queen of Heaven.

 

[Adonia]

Why would we? We don't have to pray to a dead woman, we don't have to repeat the same rote prayer over and over.

We can go directly to God by the authority of Jesus Christ.

[Nasty personal comment edited.]

Then stop praying for others or have others pray for you!

 

[Adonia]

Moses didn't pray to the ark. Catholics actually do pray to the dead "saints", as you have already admitted you do.

None of the saints are dead, they are as alive in Christ as you or me.

 

[kyredneck]

where direct from Revelation 12, 1 the Church has interpreted as Mary, Queen of Heaven.

The woman of Revelation 12:1 is the same woman of Genesis 3:15; Psalms 87; Isaiah 54; Galatians 4:26-27, and is manifested in this temporal realm as all (OT & NT) the born from above children of the heavenly Zion.

She is NOT Mary, the mother of Jesus.

 

[Adonia]

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

So is the following repetition?

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

“ ‘Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord God Almighty,’b

who was, and is, and is to come.”

Wow, call me crazy, but this sounds like the repetition of a prayer to me - and in heaven no less!

 

[Adonia]

She is NOT Mary, the mother of Jesus.

How do you know? This is just what you have come to believe, how you have interpreted such passages, or how you have been taught what they mean. Is Mary the new Eve? Or the real live Ark of the Covenant in human form? The similarities are extraordinary.

 

[Adonia]

I am seeking the truth. Maybe Baptists have it right. I shall know when God enlightens me

Maybe it's the Mormons who have it all on the money. Or perhaps the JW's? Anyone for Eastern Orthodoxy? Sure a lot of them out there claiming the "whole truth and nothing but the truth" that's for sure.

 

[Scarlett O.]

When you yourself pray for others, you are "mediating" for them with God. Dear God, please help my friend Harry with his difficulties. Hey, why isn't Harry going directly to God himself, why are you getting involved?

No, Jesus as our intercessor speaks on behalf of the saved against the accusations of the devil. He is the ONLY one who can do that. "For there is one God and there is ONE intercessor between God and man and that is Jesus Christ." It's in 1 Timothy.

ONE intercessor.

Praying for someone, such as "Harry" is not you and I coming before God and acting on their behalf as a savior against the devil's accusations. You and I have sin. We cannot do that. But we can and should and are told to pray for people. God listens.

We should lift people up in prayer. Jesus, the intercessor, can defeat the devil's lies and covers our sins with his blood so that they do not speak against us like the devil does.

Praying for people and being a holy intercessor who can abolish the devil's lies are two entirely things.

 

[Adonia]

Praying to the dead is called Necromancy.

Only if you expect to get an answer that you can actually hear. We pray to the saints so they who are in heaven and right next to God can try to catch His ear an, to put in a good word for us and that's it. If things go our way it's called a miracle, if not we continue to pray regardless.

 

[David Kent]

Only if you expect to get an answer that you can actually hear. We pray to the saints so they who are in heaven and right next to God can try to catch His ear an, to put in a good word for us and that's it. If things go our way it's called a miracle, if not we continue to pray regardless.

It is still praying to the dead and that is necromancy.

 

[HankD]

Do you have a problem with meditating on any of the following?

1. The Baptism of Jesus
2. The first miracle at the wedding in Cana.
3. Jesus's words about the Kingdom of God.
4. Jesus's transfiguration.
5. Jesus sacrifice at the Last Supper.
6. The angel Gabriel announcing to Mary that she would carry the Redeemer.
7. The day that Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth.
8. The birth of Jesus
9.The day Jesus was brought to the Temple after He was born.
10. The time Jesus was found by His parents in the Temple.
11. Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane.
12. The scourging of Jesus.
13. Jesus crowned with thorns.
14. Jesus carrying His cross.
15. The crucifixion of Jesus.
16. The resurrection of Jesus.
17. Jesus's ascension into heaven.
18. The descent of the Holy Spirit.

So there we have it, 18 times where the emphasis of the prayer is on Jesus Christ, His coming, and the Holy Spirit - all taken directly from the Scriptures. The 19th mystery is the Assumption of the Blessed Mother which orthodoxy teaches and I assume you would wholeheartedly reject and then the 20th, where direct from Revelation 12, 1 the Church has interpreted as Mary, Queen of Heaven.

It is the adoration of Mary which is so offensive to Baptists.
While Baptist love Mary as the mother of our Lord's humanity she, a created being, is in no wise the Mother of God.
Baptists also avoid the use of statues in prayer, prayers to the departed and anything which resembles "worship" of Mary.

That is what is offensive, these other things do not excuse the error.

HankD