Mary's blood ransomed the world!?

[LisaMC]

T2U,

Would you care to share your insight?

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

These verses (words spoken by Jesus Christ, Himself) say that there is/was no one born of a woman who was greater than John the Baptist. Was Mary not "born of a woman?"

 

[Catholic Dad]

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not
risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a
greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater
than he.

These verses (words spoken by Jesus Christ, Himself) say that there is/was no one born
of a woman who was greater than John the Baptist. Was Mary not "born of a woman?"

LisaMC,

In Luke, it says that "there is not a greater prophet". (and the context of Matthew is about John the Baptist as prophet). Mary (especially at the time the statement is made) is not a prophet.

Also, If you take the verses the way you seem to be implying, was not Jesus also "born of a woman?"

In Christ,
Catholic Dad

"Sinne Clanna Gael. Ní fiú cur inár gcoinne. Comhshamhlófar sibh." "

We are the Irish. Resistance is useless. You will be assimilated."

[ February 13, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Catholic Dad ]

 

[Carson Weber]

Was Mary not "born of a woman?"

No one is advancing the notion that Mary is the greatest prophet in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by LisaMC:

These verses (words spoken by Jesus Christ, Himself) say that there is/was no one born of a woman who was greater than John the Baptist. Was Mary not "born of a woman?"

Well then, wan't Jesus also born of a woman?

Are you willing to apply the same standard in regards to Jesus? Did He make an exception for Himself?

As an aside, in Luke at least it says "not a greater prophet". I don't know of anyone that would say that Mary is a prophet.

 

[LisaMC]

Catholic Dad,

In Luke, it says that "there is not a greater prophet". (and the context of Matthew is about John the Baptist as prophet). Mary (especially at the time the statement is made) is not a prophet.

Mary wasn't a prophet? Define "prophet" please.

Also, If you take the verses the way you seem to be implying, was not Jesus also "born of a woman?"

So, have you demoted Jesus to a mere man or prophet?

 

[LisaMC]

Carson,

No one is advancing the notion that Mary is the greatest prophet in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Reread the verses:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

The verse is only saying that whoever is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist. Once again you have wrested Scripture.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by LisaMC:
So, have you demoted Jesus to a mere man or prophet?

No.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he

Was Jesus born of a woman?

If yes then why does the above not include Jesus?

Jesus did not make an exception for Himself in His statement.

Please reconcile your beliefs in light of the above.

 

[LisaMC]

T2U,

Well then, wan't Jesus also born of a woman?

So, what is it a RCC rule that everytime Jesus makes a statement, from which we know He is excluded, that by default Mary is excluded? Jesus was more than a prophet or man.

Are you willing to apply the same standard in regards to Jesus? Did He make an exception for Himself?

So, then where do you draw the line at what Jesus said. Just to whom is he referring? Why do you assume Mary is excluded? Who else would be excluded? Anybody? Nobody?

As an aside, in Luke at least it says "not a greater prophet". I don't know of anyone that would say that Mary is a prophet.

Define "prophet."

Did Mary not foretell her own pregnancy, that she would birth the Messiah? Did she not foretell that all generations would call her blessed?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by LisaMC:
The verse is only saying that whoever is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist. Once again you have wrested Scripture.

Originally posted by LisaMC:
These verses (words spoken by Jesus Christ, Himself) say that there is/was no one born of a woman who was greater than John the Baptist. Was Mary not "born of a woman?"

Now I'm confused.

You are all over the place on this, Lisa.

How about a clarification?

 

[LisaMC]

T2U,

Was Jesus born of a woman?

If yes then why does the above not include Jesus?

Jesus did not make an exception for Himself in His statement.

I have already answered those questions. How about you answer a few yourself.

Please reconcile your beliefs in light of the above.

Please do not presume to give me orders.

 

[LisaMC]

T2U,

Now I'm confused.

You are all over the place on this, Lisa.

How about a clarification?

I have never seen people as easily confused as Catholics. Bless your heart, no wonder your Catholic.

If you will clarify exactly what you don't understand about what I said, I will be able to clear it up for you.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by LisaMC:
So, what is it a RCC rule that everytime Jesus makes a statement, from which we know He is excluded, that by default Mary is excluded? Jesus was more than a prophet or man.

The point is that your logic is not consistent here. Sort of like Curits and "none is righteous".

I find fault with your interpretation because you wish to claim that the text is making a statement without exception (specifically that Mary is not an exception) but refuse to apply that to Jesus.

Without exception is without exception. No?

Did Mary not foretell her own pregnancy, that she would birth the Messiah? Did she not foretell that all generations would call her blessed?

Uh... no. The angel revealed it to her.

Wow. I must admit to being surprised by your last remark.

 

[Catholic Dad]

Catholic Dad,
quote:In Luke, it says that "there is not a greater prophet". (and the context of Matthew is about John the Baptist as prophet). Mary (especially at the time the statement is made) is not a prophet.


Mary wasn't a prophet? Define "prophet" please.

A prophet is one who publically proclaims a message from or the coming of the Lord. John made straight the path and proclaimed that Jesus was coming. Jonah went to Ninaveh to proclaim God's message to them. Aside from a private revelation to her cousin Elizabeth (my soul proclaims the greatness of my Lord) can you show me where the Bible states that Mary was a prophet? Even if you consider Mary a prophet, I would consider John a greater prophet.

quote:

Also, If you take the verses the way you seem to be implying, was not Jesus also
"born of a woman?"


So, have you demoted Jesus to a mere man or prophet?

Shame on you!. I am doing nothing of the sort. It was you who first posted this verse, not me. I am merely responding to your post and asking you the same type of question you asked. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Although He is fully man, he is certainly not a mere man. Nor is He a prophet--He is God.

Now please respond to the three posts that were posted to you. Is John the greatest that lived or is Jesus greater? If Jesus is greater, how do you reconcile Matthew's quote except to say that Jesus is not mere man or prophet. Do you consider Jesus a mere man or a prophet based on the Bible quotes you listed?

Regardless of all of the above, as Carson said, no one is claiming that Mary is the greatest prophet.


In Christ,
Catholic Dad

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by LisaMC:
I have never seen people as easily confused as Catholics. Bless your heart, no wonder your Catholic.

I will overlook the personal attack.

It does cause me to wonder however if you are feeling slightly less than confident in your arguements.

 

[LisaMC]

T2U,

I see "Kingdom of God/Heaven" as wherever God is. So, read the verses again:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by LisaMC:
If you will clarify exactly what you don't understand about what I said, I will be able to clear it up for you.

Originally posted by LisaMC:
The verse is only saying that whoever is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist. Once again you have wrested Scripture.

Originally posted by LisaMC:
These verses (words spoken by Jesus Christ, Himself) say that there is/was no one born of a woman who was greater than John the Baptist. Was Mary not "born of a woman?"

My confusion is over how you reconcile these two differing interpretions that you have for the relevent verses.

1) The least in heaven is greater than John the Baptist

2) No one is greater than John the Baptist

 

[LisaMC]

T2U,

My confusion is over how you reconcile these two differing interpretions that you have for the relevent verses.

1) The least in heaven is greater than John the Baptist

2) No one is greater than John the Baptist

Please, read the verses.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Then look a little closer at what I said:

The verse is only saying that whoever is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist. Once again you have wrested Scripture.

These verses (words spoken by Jesus Christ, Himself) say that there is/was no one born of a woman who was greater than John the Baptist. Was Mary not "born of a woman?"

To insist that I am contradicting myself, is to say that Jesus contradicted Himself within one statement.

 

[GraceSaves]

Lisa,

Is your argument, in a nutshell, that because of our exalted status of Mary, that in light of this verse, we are wrong, for that would make her less than John the Baptist?

This part of the thread has really taken me off course. If my surmising above is incorrect, please let me know your intent.

God bless,

Grant

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by LisaMC:
To insist that I am contradicting myself, is to say that Jesus contradicted Himself within one statement.

I'm bowing out, Lisa. You are no doubt a very nice person, but we are simply talking past each other.

 

[LisaMC]

T2U,

The point is that your logic is not consistent here.

How so? Who made the rule, that Jesus had to purposefully exclude Himself in order that we know when He makes a statement that He is not referring to Himself?

I find fault with your interpretation because you wish to claim that the text is making a statement without exception (specifically that Mary is not an exception) but refuse to apply that to Jesus.

Where's the rule that an exception has to be made? Besides, Jesus did make an exception in that verse:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Whoever is least in the Kingdom of God/Heaven is greater than John the Baptist.

Without exception is without exception. No?

So, then every statement Jesus makes includes Himself, unless He specificallys says, " . . . except for Me . . . ?"

Uh... no. The angel revealed it to her.

Really? Receiving a message from an "angel" excludes one from being considered a prophet?

Wow. I must admit to being surprised by your last remark.

Well, I'm not surprised at your surprise.