Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??

[BobRyan]

We are mortal beings. But more specifically we have immortal spirits clothed with a mortal body. Someday this mortal body will put on immortality and house this immortal spirit, and both body and spirit will be forever with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

#1. Our body does NOT put on another body. We the "mortal person" must put on immortality
this mortal must put on immortality

#2. There is no text saying we have an immortal spirit.

#3. In 1Cor 15 it is a DIFFERENT body that is given to us at the resurrection.

#4. In 2Cor 5 THIS tent - THIS body is decaying - but we have ANOTHER body that is made in heaven for us - received at the point when as stated in 1Cor 15 "death is swallowed up".

NAKED (mentioned in 2Cor 5) is the state of death -- where this body is mere dust and we have not yet received our eternal body at the 1Cor 15 resurrection of the saints.

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity


Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK is right to bring up the subject of 1Cor 15 - and the resurrection of the saints as the POINT that we all look to - to receive immortality.


1Cor 15
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

One property named for the heavenly body is that it is imperishable.


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

Here Paul is not referring to people that never go to sleep at night. Rather he is actually describing death as sleep. And by that token - is also talking about those who will still be alive at the return of Christ.

1Cor 15:
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Here we see that the saints - the person - is CHANGED at the return of Christ.

Again - we see that the "dead are RAISED" and when they are raised - they are raised with imperishable bodies - bodies that have that property.

53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 "" O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?''
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

Notice that what is mortal is subsumed by what it immortal life - at the return of Christ. That will come in handy when you get to 2Cor 5.


57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. 16



Because we know that WE shall be changed that we as “mortal man” shall at the resurrection “put on immortality” we know that our toil is not in vain. THIS is the focus of the NT saints!
The focus of the NT authors is always that the hope of the Christian is the return of Christ and the change that takes place at that time. That is the focus of the saints while on earth.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Death in the Bible never means annihilation.
It speaks of eternal death, or eternal separation from God almighty.

HP: Excellent point. Death also means a total unwillingness. EX: Dead to sins.

Those in hell will remain dead, i.e. totally unwilling to obey God, with NO HOPE OF CHANGE OR FORGIVENESS, and that for eternity.

 

[BobRyan]

HP said
Death also means a total unwillingness

The death and destruction brought to Sodom and Gomorrah was not simply "leaving them to CONTINUE lives totally unwilling to obey God" - RATHER it was FIRE and Brimstone as Christ stated - that destroyed them "by reducing them to ashes".

there is just no way to water this down. The second DEATH is stated this way -

In Rev 20:9 "Fire Came Down out of heaven and Devoured them"

Christ states the SAME happened to Soddom and Gomorrah

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

This is the ONLY event in all of history that uses the same terms - that parallels that same future event.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: there is just no way to water this down.

HP: You get out your water hose and attempt to wash away the truth of eternal punishment with this passage, now almost daily. In order to do it, you insert your own blinders on to the multitude of passages to the contrary, and insist that to reduce those to ashes means the annihilation of that which cannot and will not be annihilated according to Scripture, i.e., the living soul.

The end of physical existence in this world is simply to begin the immortal existence in the world to come, for sinner and saint.

Your narrow and novel idea of what it means to be 'destroyed' or 'reduced to ashes' is self serving, but not in accordance to reason or Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

The end of physical existence in this world is simply to begin the immortal existence in the world to come, for sinner and saint.

#1. NO TEXT promises "immortality" for the wicked as you suggest above.

#2. I AM glad to see you admit that the saints are not NOW immortal and can only BECOME immortal at some point after death -- hopefully you admit this happens when "THIS MORTAL puts on IMMORTALITY" 1cor 15

 

[DHK]

The death and destruction brought to Sodom and Gomorrah was not simply "leaving them to CONTINUE lives totally unwilling to obey God" - RATHER it was FIRE and Brimstone as Christ stated - that destroyed them "by reducing them to ashes".

there is just no way to water this down. The second DEATH is stated this way -

In Rev 20:9 "Fire Came Down out of heaven and Devoured them"

Christ states the SAME happened to Soddom and Gomorrah

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

This is the ONLY event in all of history that uses the same terms - that parallels that same future event.

Go see my warning or advice to you on the first page of this thread. 2Pet.2:6 from which you just quoted has nothing to do with this thread, as does the Flood, nor the earth swallowing up Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, nor the untimely deaths of Annanias and Sapphira. Physical death is physical death, and nothing more. Whether a person is killed by a miraculous event similar to a volcanic eruption, or an earthquake, or drowning in a Flood or something like a sudden heart attack, they are killed. The result is the same. They die. Their bodies are separated from their spirits which shows death. That has nothing to do with your take on annihilation. A body destroyed in the Flood was not annihilated--the spirit lived on. A body destroyed in the fire of Sodom was not annihilated--the spirit lived on. Annanias and Sapphira were not annihilated. They died and their spirit lived on. To be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord. You do like taking Scripture out of its context don't you?

 

[DHK]

#1. NO TEXT promises "immortality" for the wicked as you suggest above.

#2. I AM glad to see you admit that the saints are not NOW immortal and can only BECOME immortal at some point after death -- hopefully you admit this happens when "THIS MORTAL puts on IMMORTALITY" 1cor 15

Tyndale was burned and his ashes scattered. Someday God will resurrect the atoms of that body into a new body without any ailment or disfunction whatsoever. It will be a glorified body like the body of Jesus Christ. A "Person" cannot "put on" a body unless he be a "person" first. We exist primarily as "spirit beings" but housed in bodies. The bodies decay; we live on. Our spirits will always live on; whether in hell or in heaven. Someday this spirit will "put on" an immortal body. Right now this spirit is housed in a body that faces corruption and decay.

We wait for the redemption of our bodies (Rom.8:23).
If "we" are waiting for the redemption of our bodies, who is the "we?" It is something other than the bodies. It is the spirit. Our spirits (the being within us, our actual person) await the redemption of our bodies. The body is simply a living corpse composed of atoms. The real you is your spirit and soul.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The point that I see as still relevant is that even BR defeats his own presuppositions that be ‘reduced to ashes’ means annihilation, when he admits that those reduced to ashes still remain somewhere to stand before God in future judgment. So now we have men, men that are annihilated by being reduced to ashes, and a third realm of annihilated beings still in existence. Strange annihilation to me.

It would appear to me that BR supports the idea that nothing (something already annihilated) is still in need of annihilation. I would have thought that once should have been enough.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

In that BR has admitted that those ‘reduced to ashes’ are still alive and waiting judgment, that establishes the fact that the text that mentions being ‘reduced to ashes’ does not in any way prove that the wicked are annihilated from existence or that they ever will be. He must produce another text that establishes that those reduced to ashes are then later annihilated. Did I miss that referenced text?

 

[Hope of Glory]

HP: Point well taken. One has to take into account that Scripture is first and foremost a spiritual book, and as such must be spiritual discerned.

I agree with this statement, but I also am firmly convinced that the Holy Spirit will never "discern" contrary to what is written.

I'm not talking about things that we don't understand or disagree upon. I'm talking about the Bible says "A", but the spirit tells me that it's really "s". That's how cults get started.

 

[Hope of Glory]

In Rev 20 we see that they both go in at the same time and in the same place. But we do not see that they all are tortured for the same length of time.

And where do we see that in Revelation 20?

 

[Andre]

If we are going to live eternally with Him, how would this differ substantially in believing or stating that we are basically created as ‘immortal’ at least in a sense?

Hello

I think that believers receive immortality at the resurrection, not before. I think that 1 Corinthians 15 teaches this rather clearly - the mortal puts on immortality. If one already has an immortal soul, then what, exactly, is the "thing" that puts on immortal: the body?

1 Cor 15 also says that, at Christ's return we are made alive. Again, if our immortal soul is already alive, what, exactly, is being made alive? The body? Well, I thought that the immortal soul is the bearer of consciousness, experience, thought, communications, etc. Wrapping this immortal spirit in a body does not really "make one alive" - one is really already alive and just getting a new "suit".

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 15

The text is very clear - a body (which by definition is physical) is something a person HAS - your argument seems to be with the text of scripture itself.

1Cor 15:
35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead raised? And with what kind of bodydo they come[/quote]

?''

Clearly the DEAD are raised and they are raised with a body – it is “they” the person – that is the “mortal” putting on the new body – the new immortal body.

Clearly the DEAD come up WITH a body of some type. The physical aspect of BODY is an ATTRIBUTE that the PERSON who is DEAD (and then comes to life) . It is silly to suppose that “the body HAS a body”.

While some may object to these clear facts about the resurrection - yet scripture is unmistakable here.

1Cor 15
36 You fool!

That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

ALL these comparisons and contrasts are of PHYSICAL bodies. The contrast is NOT between Physical and non-Physical - BUT RATHER between Earthly and heavenly (or spiritual).

The assumption that the heavenly - or spiritual - is NOT physical is pure fiction and not found in the comparisons provided in the text.

1Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, ""The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.'' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Here again - the image we bear is a physical concept. And the contrast is between EARTHLY and heavenly NOT between PHYSICAL and non-Physical.

There IS a natural body and THERE IS (there EXISTS) a spiritual body according to the text. These bodies are REAL and by definition physical. But that does not mean the heavenly body is limitted to JUST the physical properties of the earthly - indeed it may have even more, but whether it does or not - it is still matter, an object, something that has physical properties.

It has an image - it gives to us - an image.

It is an attribute of the person that is raised - just as our own bodies are today. The person has a body.

 

[Andre]

I have explained this verse to you now at least three or four times, and yet you will not believe. It is you that takes on the form of argument that when I say X you say Y, and offer no evidence. You offer opinion (yours), and I offer the Word of God. Sorry to say, but opinion is not worth a hill of beans. If your opinion cannot be backed up by the Word of God it is useless.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The gift of God is "eternal life." A phrase that is contrasted with "death" specifically "eternal death." Paul is making a contrast between the two concepts.

Look at the context. Is the context speaking of temporal or eternal consequences. See verse 22, the preceding verse:

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
--If one is free from sin the end or result is everlasting life.
If you are not free from sin the end or result is everlasting death.
The context is eternity. What is your destiny? Will you have eternal life or eternal death? The wages of sin is eternal death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Paul didn't have to insert the adjective "eternal" before death, in order to make the meaning of the verse clear. It is clear by means of the context of the passage.
However your mind is made up and you will not listen to reason. So no matter what I say will not convince you.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

This is faulty reasoning and I will prove it.

Here is Romans 6:22 and 6:23

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

I am asserting that the redeemed receive eternal life and the lost are annihilated. Is there anything, and I mean anything, in the above text that speaks against such a reading?

No there is not.

All that verse 22 does is establish that the context is eternity for the redeemed, not for the unredeemed. Verse 22 says nothing, absolutely nothing, about the unredeemed. So no context at all is established in respect to the unredeemed and the argument that verse 23 has to be talking about some eternal state of affairs for the unredeemed is simply false.

Let's say the subject was the fate of cats who overeat in some hypothetical, yet obviously possible, universe where cats get eternal life if they do not overeat and good old fashioned "you die and you're gone" death if they do. A "scripture" that parallels the structure of Rom 6:22-23 might be as follows:

For you cats who have been set free from overeating, the benefit you reap is eternal life. For the wages of overeating is death, but the result of eating properly is eternal life.

If DHK's argument is followed, we are forced to conclude that since "by context we are talking about eternity", overeating cats must experience "eternal" death, not good old fashioned death.

I trust this puts the matter to bed.

 

[BobRyan]

And where do we see that in Revelation 20?

In Rev 20 - both the Devil and the wicked are tossed into the lake of fire and brimstone - "after the 1000 years are completed".

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and [b]fire came down from heaven and devoured them.[/b]
[/quote]

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 20
12 And [b]I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing[/b] before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and [b]the dead were judged[/b] from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And thesea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown

into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Andre]

Use Biblical definitions.
Death in the Bible never means annihilation.

My Bible does not have an annex of "definitions". I think that you are using circular arguments. To establish that, for example, the "definition" of death in the Bible is "conscious separation from God", you actually need to provide some texts that demonstrate this - texts that also do not allow "death" to be read in the good old "extinction" sense.

There are no Biblical "definitions" - there are only conclusions that people draw in respect to what words like "death" mean in the context of the Scriptures. Give us just one text where "death" has to mean "conscious seperation from God" to the exclusion of the alternative that it means extinction.

 

[BobRyan]

The point that I see as still relevant is that even BR defeats his own presuppositions that be ‘reduced to ashes’ means annihilation, when he admits that those reduced to ashes still remain somewhere to stand before God in future judgment.

My argument is that the FIRST death only kills the body the SECOND death by contrast "destroys BOTH body AND SOUL" Matt 10:27-28.

In the case of the FIRST death sufferred by the people of Sodom they were subjected to eternal fire. They and their city.

But Christ said that in the SECOND death - that of fiery hell - they will have BOTH body AND SOUL destroyed.

You keep arguing that IF both body AND soul were not destroyed in the FIRST death -- THEN they will not BOTH be destroyed ithe SECOND.

Your argument does not hold.

My point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Go see my warning or advice to you on the first page of this thread. 2Pet.2:6 from which you just quoted has nothing to do with this thread, as does the Flood,

You claim it - but the "Details" of 2Peter 2 (where the destruction of the wicked PAST and the destruction of the wicked FUTURE are both LINKED IN THE TEXT) AND of 2Peter 3 (where the flood is brought up in connection with the fiery destuction of both the wicked and the world) quickly debunk the speculation you suggest in your statement above.

I keep pointing these inconvenient details IN THE TEXT out to you highlighting them in blue and then telling you that you need to IGNORE the sections highlighted to make your argument -- and you just keep "ignoring the text".

That is not a compelling form of argumen. It does nothing to sustain your point.

So I will continue to focus on that part of this discussion that you are not answering.

DHK
A body destroyed in the fire of Sodom was not annihilated--the spirit lived on.

Matt 10:28 does argue that the spirit "exists" - but does not argue that the spirit "exists beyond its destruction" - which is the argument you must make - and fail to sustain.

That which DESTROYS the body by reducing it to ashes in the FIRST death -- will "destroy BOTH body AND SOUL" in the SECOND death - in fiery hell.

By your admitting that its DESTRUCTION by everlasting fire in the FIRST death -- really DOES "reduce to ashes" the body and the cities.

THEN in the DESTRUCTION of BOTH body AND soul by everlasting fire in the SECOND death you have no basis for saying "yes but not by reducing to ashes as in REALLY destroy".

Therein lies your problem sir.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In that BR has admitted that those ‘reduced to ashes’ are still alive

If you have ANY quote from me saying "that which is reduced to ashes is STILL ALIVE" then show it.

If you have any quote from SCRIPTURE saying "that which is reduced to ashes is STILL ALIVE" then show it.

So far you have failed to do it even once in all of this thread.

In John 11 John is dormant "asleep" then plainly "John is DEAD".

As Christ affirmed clearly in Matt 22 "God is NOT the god of the DEAD".

and waiting judgment, that establishes the fact that the text that mentions being ‘reduced to ashes’ does not in any way prove that the wicked are annihilated from existence or that they ever will be.

You are dancing - instead of exegeting.

You can not tiptoe past the inconvenient points in Matt 10:28 that CONTRASTS the first death with the second.

In the first death the soul becomes dormant and the PERSON is said to "sleep" while the body is destroyed and the "spirit goes back to God who gave it".

But at the SECOND death THEN "BOTH body AND SOUL are DESTROYED" -

You need to find a way for that thing that is DESTROYED to stay alive. That did not happen in the first death because the body that is reduced to ashes IS NOT ALIVE. If you think it is - a quick visit to the city morgue will convince you otherwise. "From dust to dust".

That same "DEADNESS" is then applied to BOTH body AND SOUL in the case of the second death - and this is devasting to the case you are trying to make.

So the point remains.

In Christ,

Bob