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Matt. 23:13 (again!)
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
Hi IT, I have provided four lines of evidence for the fact "total spiritual inability" is bogus.
You seem to claim, carefully avoiding any actual assertion, that the men entering heaven were not seeking God. Ludicrous.
Next, channeling the RYR, you say he only thought he was seeking God. You can deny scripture till the cows come home. The soil that received the gospel with joy, only thought that was what he was doing. The men entering heaven only thought they were entering heaven. Good grief.
Folks, the case has been made, now all we get are assorted "taint so" posts.
There real argument is 400 years of godly, scholarly theologians could not be wrong. Jesus, OTOH teaches some traditional views are wrong.
You seem to claim, carefully avoiding any actual assertion, that the men entering heaven were not seeking God. Ludicrous.
Next, channeling the RYR, you say he only thought he was seeking God. You can deny scripture till the cows come home. The soil that received the gospel with joy, only thought that was what he was doing. The men entering heaven only thought they were entering heaven. Good grief.
Folks, the case has been made, now all we get are assorted "taint so" posts.
There real argument is 400 years of godly, scholarly theologians could not be wrong. Jesus, OTOH teaches some traditional views are wrong.
Hi JamesL, man (people) has the ability to seek God and trust wholeheartedly in Jesus, without being regenerated (made alive) and thus while still spiritually dead in their sins.
The four lines of evidence against total spiritual inability are:
The four lines of evidence against total spiritual inability are:
1) No verse or passage, contextually considered says fallen people cannot seek God or trust in Christ. Verses like 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 3:10-12 do not actually support the premise. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says "the things from the Spirit" and does not say all "the things from the Spirit." Likewise, Romans 3:11 does not say "there is none who seeks God" at any time.
2) Several passages teach that fallen men do seek God, sometimes by works and sometimes by faith. See Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9:30-33, etc.
3) Jesus taught in parables to prevent people from responding and being healed, and He would not have need to teach in parables is total spiritual inability was valid.
4) God hardened hearts in Romans 11 to facilitate spreading the gospel to the Gentiles. He would not have needed to harden hearts of the Jews if they had already been hardened by total spiritual inability.
2) Several passages teach that fallen men do seek God, sometimes by works and sometimes by faith. See Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, Romans 9:30-33, etc.
3) Jesus taught in parables to prevent people from responding and being healed, and He would not have need to teach in parables is total spiritual inability was valid.
4) God hardened hearts in Romans 11 to facilitate spreading the gospel to the Gentiles. He would not have needed to harden hearts of the Jews if they had already been hardened by total spiritual inability.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Van... it has been so long... and yet you've changed little to none at all.
1) Not only is your exegesis and your word additions garbage, but other passages such as Rom. 8:8ff and 1 Cor. 12:3 indicate what man cannot do without being empowered by the Spirit. You are arguing against logical inferences (like the inane idea that since the text doesn't say "at any time" therefore there are times when the text is clear and succinct, yet your view requires them as well.
2) Facepalm... don't have time for this one. It might helped if you tried to prove your points b/c I'm not seeing what you are asserting. In fact, I see the opposite: "30 What should we say then? Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained righteousness—namely the righteousness that comes from faith."
3) You are pressing this idea of parables farther than it needs to go. This is the evangelists way of connecting Jesus with the prophet Isaiah and his message (specifically as found in Isaiah 6). And these parables were about the growth of the kingdom. It was God's plan for the people of God that he was hiding truth from the Pharisees and alike. This is not about the gospel per se. So there is a category error here as well.
4) Again, see #3. But this is about the flow of salvation history. And notice, God is the one directing the events so certain people come to faith and others don't. This is not on the personal level but on the grand scale of all humanity. And it is from the perspective of God's sovereign activity not human's ability. So again, you have a category error.
That said, I went ahead and slapped my palm on my face anticipating your response. In case you were wondering.
Another 5 pointer chimes in with personal incredulity as if that fallacious argument had merit.
Note the change of verse, now Romans 8:8 and 1 Corinthians 12:3 somehow support the bogus premise.
Romans 8:8 concludes a sentence started in verse 6: For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Does this passage say fallen unregenerate people are unable to ever set their minds on godly things, such as spiritual milk? Nope. So what we have here is an effort to take a passage dealing with the behavior of some indwelt people, setting their minds on fleshly desires, and attempting to rip it out of context and apply it to those not indwelt. Twaddle.
Next we get 1 Corinthians 12:3 and the statement that no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. While unsaved people can say "Lord, Lord" (Matthew 7:22) the actual idea is without the Spirit of Christ indwelling us, Jesus is not truly Lord of our life. Only born anew believers belong to Jesus, we are His sheep, and He is our Shepherd, our boss, our Lord. So again, the 5 pointers rip this out of context and claim the unsaved cannot seek God or trust in Christ. Twaddle.
Then denial is offered to refute all the passages where fallen people seek God. LOL
Next Matthew 13:10-15 is said not to actually mean what it says, that is pressing too hard. LOL again.
Finally, God hardening hearts somehow means individuals hearts did not need to be hardened, they really could not receive the gospel anyway. Folks, either we trust in scripture or we trust in scripture denial.
Note the change of verse, now Romans 8:8 and 1 Corinthians 12:3 somehow support the bogus premise.
Romans 8:8 concludes a sentence started in verse 6: For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Does this passage say fallen unregenerate people are unable to ever set their minds on godly things, such as spiritual milk? Nope. So what we have here is an effort to take a passage dealing with the behavior of some indwelt people, setting their minds on fleshly desires, and attempting to rip it out of context and apply it to those not indwelt. Twaddle.
Next we get 1 Corinthians 12:3 and the statement that no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. While unsaved people can say "Lord, Lord" (Matthew 7:22) the actual idea is without the Spirit of Christ indwelling us, Jesus is not truly Lord of our life. Only born anew believers belong to Jesus, we are His sheep, and He is our Shepherd, our boss, our Lord. So again, the 5 pointers rip this out of context and claim the unsaved cannot seek God or trust in Christ. Twaddle.
Then denial is offered to refute all the passages where fallen people seek God. LOL
Next Matthew 13:10-15 is said not to actually mean what it says, that is pressing too hard. LOL again.
Finally, God hardening hearts somehow means individuals hearts did not need to be hardened, they really could not receive the gospel anyway. Folks, either we trust in scripture or we trust in scripture denial.
Verse 9 says they cannot please God.
No matter how much you twist God's Word --the Word is true and you are wrong.
What you are, in fact doing, is making stuff up. In verses 6-8 none of those people are indwelt. They are not believers. They do not have the Holy Spirit. It's as plain as day.
"The mind governed by the flesh is death." (v.6)
"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."(v.7)
"Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. (v.8)
It takes active effort on your part to deliberately try to subvert God's Word. You should tremble before it --yet you intentionally wrest it at every turn.
Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.
________________________________________________________________
Do you truely see, understand, perceive what the above means?
Yet another taint so post, devoid of any rebuttal.
Matthew 23:13 says fallen, unregenerate people were entering heaven, demonstrating the mistaken doctrine of total spiritual inability is bogus. Those on the other side offer obfuscation and deflection and personal attacks. Just read it folks.... If they had been regenerated, they would have not been blocked. It is a lock. Scripture means what it says, not the opposite of what it says.
Matthew 23:13 says fallen, unregenerate people were entering heaven, demonstrating the mistaken doctrine of total spiritual inability is bogus. Those on the other side offer obfuscation and deflection and personal attacks. Just read it folks.... If they had been regenerated, they would have not been blocked. It is a lock. Scripture means what it says, not the opposite of what it says.
Once again Rolleyes
1 Where does the text say that these people were unregenerate?
2. Were they entering the kingdom of heaven or not? If they were blocked, they didn't enter.
3. Who controls who enters the kingdom of heaven? God? 'Fallen unregenerate people'? Or the scribes and Pharisees?
LOL Martin, you questions have been answered multiple times. Scripture is clear. Why not accept it?
According to 5 pointers, they could not have been entering unless regenerated, and they could not be blocked if regenerated. Thus both total spiritual inability and irresistible grace are shown to be bogus.
Scripture says there were entering. Why as the question. Scripture says they were blocked. Why ask the question. Obfuscation anyone.
God and God alone controls entry into His kingdom. If He credits our faith as righteousness, He transfers us from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son. I think they never fully developed wholehearted faith because of the bogus teachings of the scribes. What we know for sure is Jesus said the scribes were responsible for preventing them from entry. Just throw that one on your denial bond fire.
According to 5 pointers, they could not have been entering unless regenerated, and they could not be blocked if regenerated. Thus both total spiritual inability and irresistible grace are shown to be bogus.
Scripture says there were entering. Why as the question. Scripture says they were blocked. Why ask the question. Obfuscation anyone.
God and God alone controls entry into His kingdom. If He credits our faith as righteousness, He transfers us from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son. I think they never fully developed wholehearted faith because of the bogus teachings of the scribes. What we know for sure is Jesus said the scribes were responsible for preventing them from entry. Just throw that one on your denial bond fire.
The above is MM's post #2. It entirely deals with your reasoning on the subject.
You can dishonestly try to hide and deflect and misrepresent all you like. It just shows the kind of person you are. I would hope that you can change your ways and deal with others in an honest fashion.
I see yet another post devoid of on topic content, but simply another personal attack. This behavior demonstrates Matthew 23:13 teaches total spiritual inability is bogus so they want to shift the subject to my behavior. I think that action is on page one of their playbook.
According to 5 pointers, the men entering heaven could not have been entering unless regenerated, and they could not be blocked if regenerated. Thus both total spiritual inability and irresistible grace are shown to be bogus.
Scripture says there were entering. Why question Scripture. Scripture says they were blocked. Why question Scripture. Obfuscation anyone (from page two.)
God and God alone controls entry into His kingdom. If He credits our faith as righteousness, He transfers us from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son. I think they never fully developed wholehearted faith because of the bogus teachings of the scribes. What we know for sure is Jesus said the scribes were responsible for preventing them from entry. Just throw that one on your denial bond fire.
According to 5 pointers, the men entering heaven could not have been entering unless regenerated, and they could not be blocked if regenerated. Thus both total spiritual inability and irresistible grace are shown to be bogus.
Scripture says there were entering. Why question Scripture. Scripture says they were blocked. Why question Scripture. Obfuscation anyone (from page two.)
God and God alone controls entry into His kingdom. If He credits our faith as righteousness, He transfers us from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son. I think they never fully developed wholehearted faith because of the bogus teachings of the scribes. What we know for sure is Jesus said the scribes were responsible for preventing them from entry. Just throw that one on your denial bond fire.
Well, it's good that we can agree on one thing. The Scripture is indeed perfectly clear.
That is exactly correct. The Lord Jesus declares that He will build His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. If these people were of the elect, a bunch of Pharisees will not stop them. The best example, and possibly the very one that our Lord had in mind, was the man born blind in John 9. The Jewish leaders tried persuasion, falsehood, abuse, and eventually excommunication, but they couldn't keep the man out of the kingdom (John 9:35-38).
[The Question Mark key is at the bottom right of your keyboard]
If they entered, they weren't 'blocked.' If they were 'blocked,' they didn't enter. It's make your mind up time. Which is it?
Praise the Lord! That's something else we agree on.
Then the scribes and Pharisees could not 'block' these people effectively, could they?
You might think that. The Scriptures do not tell us. What the Lord Jesus tells us is that, 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me' (John 6:37). If these people were among those given to the Son by the Father to redeem, then they came; if not at this time, then later. He also says, 'And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' If they came in true repentance and faith, nothing would prevent them.
They were responsible for seeking to keep them out. As I have explained, and as you have consistently ignored, aphiemi does not mean to 'block;' it means to 'forgive' or to 'let go.'
I think you'll find that's a bonfire.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Truth is not dependent nor based in what you think.
I would have hoped you were more insightful and hermeneutically responsible than what you have shown in this thread. Your intent is that you feel you've found a proof text, one passage that does away with dogma taught throughout the Scriptures. This is a huge error and it is typically what is practiced in what could be deemed sects as they propagate heterodox teachings from the self same exegetical fallacy.
No man can stand in God's way and prevent His elect from entering the kingdom of God whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world, Eph. 1, John 6:37. The verse you allude to does not pit against this truth nor prove this truth to be false, it is your interpretation that is amiss.
Hi IT, not sure why you posted #36. First you offer a non-sequitur. Then an ad homenim. Then a misrepresentation (one passage claimed, when more than a dozen cited.) Then the false claim your mistaken doctrine is taught throughout scripture after I have shown it is never taught in scripture. Good Grief. Folks, all they have is obfuscation and personal attacks. Oh I see I missed one, the ol guilt by association ploy.
Next, we get a statement, no one can stand in God's and prevent His elect from entering heaven. Of course not, and on one said otherwise. All these prove "A" then claim "B" has been proved arguments of fallacious. Scripture says the men of Matthew 23:13 were entering heaven. But they were blocked. Thus they had sufficient spiritual ability to seek God without being under the influence of irresistible grace.
Folks, wait for another effort to change the subject.
Next, we get a statement, no one can stand in God's and prevent His elect from entering heaven. Of course not, and on one said otherwise. All these prove "A" then claim "B" has been proved arguments of fallacious. Scripture says the men of Matthew 23:13 were entering heaven. But they were blocked. Thus they had sufficient spiritual ability to seek God without being under the influence of irresistible grace.
Folks, wait for another effort to change the subject.
Hi Martin, these people of Matthew 23:13 were entering heaven, thus seeking God. No one said they had been elected by God yet. So your first argument is a change of subject. Only the elect enter heaven. True, but having nothing to do with the fact these not yet elect men were in the process of entering heaven by seeking God.
Next Martin finds fault with how I say something. Anytime an opponent resorts to this action, they are admitting they cannot refute what is actually being said.
Then we get more obfuscation, they were entering but they did not enter. So simple a child could grasp it.
We do not agree on nullifying scripture. Jesus said people entering were blocked. You can deny it till the cows come home, but scripture cannot be broken.
Obviously they had not been given because God had not credited their faith as righteousness because false teachings had corrupted it in some way.
In summary, one post after another seeks to change the subject and avoid the obvious truth, total spiritual inability is bogus as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.
Next Martin finds fault with how I say something. Anytime an opponent resorts to this action, they are admitting they cannot refute what is actually being said.
Then we get more obfuscation, they were entering but they did not enter. So simple a child could grasp it.
We do not agree on nullifying scripture. Jesus said people entering were blocked. You can deny it till the cows come home, but scripture cannot be broken.
Obviously they had not been given because God had not credited their faith as righteousness because false teachings had corrupted it in some way.
In summary, one post after another seeks to change the subject and avoid the obvious truth, total spiritual inability is bogus as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.
Van, no English translation renders it "heaven" but kingdom of heaven. One has to die to go to either everlasting perdition or everlasting glory. Matthew 13:23 does not support your wild contentions. You have no support from any commentator, Bible translation or any other authority. You are left alone once again on a broken limb.
Martin said:
The Greek word (G863) has a range of meanings. Thus the translators use the context to discern which of the meaning was intended at Matthew 23:13. The #1 meaning is "to send away" or not allow someone to stay or continue. So "do not allow those who are entering to go in" nicely translates the word meaning.
So yet another effort to change the subject and avoid the truth that total spiritual inability is unbiblical as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.