Matthew 7:21-23?

[SovereignGrace]

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”[Matthew 7:21-23]

I’ve always believed that as soon as a lost person dies, they go to hell. Now, hell isn’t the lake of fire, but is a place of the departed dead, hades, Sheol. Would not a lost person immediately upon death know his/her fate then? If so, then why did Jesus say the above, as it sounds like many will be surprised of His verdict on the day of judgment?

Your input is much needed and appreciated. TIA.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This thought just struck me a few minutes ago and I wonder why I never thought of this as many times as I’ve read it and pondered upon it.

 

[Van]

I think the passage indicates the lost (those that thought they were saved, but were not) will seek to overturn their judgment when provided the opportunity. Thus "on that day" refers to their judgment day rather than the day they are aware they are in Hades.

 

[canadyjd]

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”[Matthew 7:21-23]

I’ve always believed that as soon as a lost person dies, they go to hell. Now, hell isn’t the lake of fire, but is a place of the departed dead, hades, Sheol. Would not a lost person immediately upon death know his/her fate then? If so, then why did Jesus say the above, as it sounds like many will be surprised of His verdict on the day of judgment?

Your input is much needed and appreciated. TIA.

Jesus is speaking of the day of the great throne judgment. Perhaps they were attempting to make one final, desperate plea by claiming all the “good works” they had done in His name.

Interesting the phrase “I never knew you”. Apparently, being “known” by Jesus is needed to be able to do the “will of the Father”.

peace to you

 

[37818]

In the Judgement not everyone are resurrection from lower Hades. There are two other places. A place in Death [not Hades], from the sea. And possibly the upper Hades that was emptied at Christ's ascension. Beyond this in Revelation 20:13 Scripture is silent on all the lost.

 

[kyredneck]

This thought just struck me a few minutes ago and I wonder why I never thought of this as many times as I’ve read it and pondered upon it.

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, Nor standeth in the way of sinners, Nor sitteth in the seat of scoffers:
2 But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps 1

 

[SovereignGrace]

In the Judgement not everyone are resurrection from lower Hades. There are two other places. A place in Death [not Hades], from the sea. And possibly the upper Hades that was emptied at Christ's ascension. Beyond this in Revelation 20:13 Scripture is silent on all the lost.

That's not my point, but I do thank you for your answer. It seems to me that Jesus is saying some(many??) will be caught flatfooted by His proclamation of Him never knowing them. When the rich man died, he was immediately in hades/sheol/nether world. Now whether that is a parable or a true event, I do not know. But from that it seems he knew immediately he was doomed. So on the day of judgment, if that is a true event, he will not be surprised by being cast into the lake of fire. These who claimed to do many works in His name seem to be surprised by His proclamation.

 

[SavedByGrace]

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”[Matthew 7:21-23]

I’ve always believed that as soon as a lost person dies, they go to hell. Now, hell isn’t the lake of fire, but is a place of the departed dead, hades, Sheol. Would not a lost person immediately upon death know his/her fate then? If so, then why did Jesus say the above, as it sounds like many will be surprised of His verdict on the day of judgment?

Your input is much needed and appreciated. TIA.

The intermediate state of the saved and lost, is very clear in the account in Luke's Gospel, of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Here we read of what I believe to be factual events, of these two who died, and went to different places, "And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (16:23). The Rich Man went to a place called "Hades", which is a "place of departed spirits"; and Lazarus, to what is known as "Abraham's Bosom", which is supposed to be, "to be partaker of the same blessedness as Abraham in paradise". It is also clear in this passage, that Hades is a place of "torments", the Rich Man says, "for I am tormented in this flame" (v.24), and further, "But now he (Lazarus) is comforted and you are tormented".

The passage in Matthew is, in my opinion, talking about professing "christians", who have the outward appearance of being a "believer", but never beed truly born-again. The Lord would never tell those who are truly saved, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.". Indeed there are many who think that they can get to heaven by their "good works", which is impossible; or make a "profession" at a Church service, or elsewhere, by raising their hand, without actually "repenting and believing", and assume that they are "saved", because the "pastor" says so!

This is a very important thread!

 

[SovereignGrace]

The intermediate state of the saved and lost, is very clear in the account in Luke's Gospel, of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Here we read of what I believe to be factual events, of these two who died, and went to different places, "And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (16:23). The Rich Man went to a place called "Hades", which is a "place of departed spirits"; and Lazarus, to what is known as "Abraham's Bosom", which is supposed to be, "to be partaker of the same blessedness as Abraham in paradise". It is also clear in this passage, that Hades is a place of "torments", the Rich Man says, "for I am tormented in this flame" (v.24), and further, "But now he (Lazarus) is comforted and you are tormented".

The passage in Matthew is, in my opinion, talking about professing "christians", who have the outward appearance of being a "believer", but never beed truly born-again. The Lord would never tell those who are truly saved, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.". Indeed there are many who think that they can get to heaven by their "good works", which is impossible; or make a "profession" at a Church service, or elsewhere, by raising their hand, without actually "repenting and believing", and assume that they are "saved", because the "pastor" says so!

This is a very important thread!

Thank you for your response, but this again, does not answer my question. It seems (to me) that they are caught off-guard by Jesus' pronouncement of "I never knew you". Maybe I am the one who is reading too much into this. I'm prepared to own this if I have as I am never above being corrected. It appears the rich man knew his condemnation as soon as he died, so those who are not saved, yet believe they are, upon death go to be reserved for judgment in the same place the rich man is(provided that is not a parable and a real event). So why would they seem to be caught off-guard by this is what I am asking.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Thank you for your response, but this again, does not answer my question. It seems (to me) that they are caught off-guard by Jesus' pronouncement of "I never knew you". Maybe I am the one who is reading too much into this. I'm prepared to own this if I have as I am never above being corrected. It appears the rich man knew his condemnation as soon as he died, so those who are not saved, yet believe they are, upon death go to be reserved for judgment in the same place the rich man is(provided that is not a parable and a real event). So why would they seem to be caught off-guard by this is what I am asking.

because they assumed that they were "saved", when in fact they were not. their surprise is in the fact that they did all of the things that Jesus mentions, and yet not really one of His

Contextually, in the verses before, Jesus talks about the good and bad fruits, which is the lives of those who claim to be Christians.

 

[SovereignGrace]

because they assumed that they were "saved", when in fact they were not. their surprise is in the fact that they did all of the things that Jesus mentions, and yet not really one of His

Contextually, in the verses before, Jesus talks about the good and bad fruits, which is the lives of those who claim to be Christians.

But my point is that they seemed to be caught flatfooted on the day of judgment, after they had already died. So, why do they seemed to be surprised by this proclamation? If the lost go where the rich man is, they know their fate is already sealed, so on the judgment they should have already realized this. Right?

 

[SavedByGrace]

But my point is that they seemed to be caught flatfooted on the day of judgment, after they had already died. So, why do they seemed to be surprised by this proclamation? If the lost go where the rich man is, they know their fate is already sealed, so on the judgment they should have already realized this. Right?

This is not an easy subject, as we do not have all of the facts disclosed to us in the Bible. As we know from the account in Luke, that after a person dies, they know where they are, whether Hades or Paradise. Yet, as you point out from the account in Matthew 7, those who Jesus rebukes, do seem to be surprised at what He tells them, as they expected to have made it to heaven.

We also do know from Matthew 25, that there will be a time when Jesus is to separate the Sheep from the Goats, and tell them of their destiny

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory. And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats. And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left. Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (31-34)

Is the answer in WHEN all of these things will take place? As there are no contradictions in the Bible, we cannot assume any errors. Though there are paradoxes, and many difficult passages.

 

[37818]

That's not my point, but I do thank you for your answer. It seems to me that Jesus is saying some(many??) will be caught flatfooted by His proclamation of Him never knowing them. When the rich man died, he was immediately in hades/sheol/nether world. Now whether that is a parable or a true event, I do not know. But from that it seems he knew immediately he was doomed. So on the day of judgment, if that is a true event, he will not be surprised by being cast into the lake of fire. These who claimed to do many works in His name seem to be surprised by His proclamation.

Yes. Trusting in one's own works rather than in God's gift according to His will. In Matthew 25:31 all the "religious" and lost goats who were not His sheep. Same problem to be understood. Before their resurrection did they not know they were lost?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes. Trusting in one's own works rather than in God's gift according to His will. In Matthew 25:31 all the "religious" and lost goats who were not His sheep. Same problem to be understood. Before their resurrection did they not know they were lost?

Well, I look at it like this. Hell/hades/Sheol/nether world is the holding cell where all the lost reside until the day of judgment and then they are brought forth and stand before Christ who renders the guilty verdict. They would have to know they are already condemned, just waiting for judgment to be pronounced unto them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@SavedByGrace

You posted this and this is what I’m pondering.

Yet, as you point out from the account in Matthew 7, those who Jesus rebukes, do seem to be surprised at what He tells them, as they expected to have made it to heaven.

Would they not know heaven is not theirs as soon as they died? Do not the lost upon death reside in hell/hades/Sheol/nether world until the day of judgment? If yes, then why do they seem to act as if this has caught them completely off-guard?

I asked this on another site and a person said (not verbatim) that maybe this would be one last plea and are using their good works as a way to argue for mercy. That seems as good an explanation as any I’ve read, probably better.

 

[DaveXR650]

But my point is that they seemed to be caught flatfooted on the day of judgment, after they had already died. So, why do they seemed to be surprised by this proclamation? If the lost go where the rich man is, they know their fate is already sealed, so on the judgment they should have already realized this. Right?

This is a warning that a profession of faith is nothing without "fruit". The people in Matthew 7:21-23, even though they claimed to do good things are "workers of iniquity (lawlessness). A good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit and a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. The message from the Puritan preachers and more recently John MacArthur is that you need to beware that you don't deceive yourselves with a false profession of faith. It is not only possible to deceive others, but more scary still is that we can deceive ourselves.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is a warning that a profession of faith is nothing without "fruit". The people in Matthew 7:21-23, even though they claimed to do good things are "workers of iniquity (lawlessness). A good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit and a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. The message from the Puritan preachers and more recently John MacArthur is that you need to beware that you don't deceive yourselves with a false profession of faith. It is not only possible to deceive others, but more scary still is that we can deceive ourselves.

Thank you for your response, but this still doesn’t answer my question. Why do those who Jesus will rebuke on the day of judgment seem to be surprised by this?

 

[37818]

Well, I look at it like this. Hell/hades/Sheol/nether world is the holding cell where all the lost reside until the day of judgment and then they are brought forth and stand before Christ who renders the guilty verdict. They would have to know they are already condemned, just waiting for judgment to be pronounced unto them.

One would think so. Matthew 25:31 teaching is on the works of the save, sheep, and lost goats. Revelation 20:11-15, is on a judgement of works. But the determining factor is being in the book. Matthew 7:21 it is a matter of doing God's will. And we understand our works will not be how we are saved. Rather our works are a result of God, Ephesians 2:10. Our difficulty is on what we are not told about. Until Revelation 20:23, the place in nether world is not the sole place of the lost. Salvation is solely the gift. Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8.
In Matthew 7:22 they were trusting in what they did.

 

[kyredneck]

This is a warning that a profession of faith is nothing without "fruit".

Wow, and this coming from a died in the wool 'faith aloner'.

Romans 2:13
James 2:24

 

[kyredneck]

Why do those who Jesus will rebuke on the day of judgment seem to be surprised by this?

They're not the only ones taken by surprise:

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Mt 25