"Maybe its real ,and I'm not Chosen "

[Alan Gross]

Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

Do you have any inclination to write 'Armeninism and Calvinism' on a piece of paper and throw it away and open up a Bible and never mention them again?

Adam sinned, all are lost, hopeless, have no ability, and all the thoughts of their imagination ARE ONLY EVIL, continually, and all will go to Hell.

That is what The Bible Teaches.

All children of Adam are Condemned, Damned, and Will Experience The Wrath of God, Forever, for their carnal, fleshly, God-hating, sin against The Eternal Trice-Holy Lord God Almighty.

There is NOTHING you or I can do about it.

If you do not believe that Adam sinned and that that left him dead in trespasses and sins, then spend your life proving you are The Enemy of God.

Otherwise, His Eternal Plan of Salvation to Glorify His Son by Redeeming those He Chose, is THE ONLY HOPE, of wretched, wicked, vile, and naked blind, dead, lost souls.

Admit that it is THAT GOD you hate and leave John Calvin out of it, unless you are also too provokatively cowardly to do that.

It's a cheap trick to play card tricks with the name John Calvin and IT IS TOO CHEAP to Talk about.

There is No 'Armenian vs Calvinism Debait'.

Adam sinned.

Ether a lost soul is Led by God Through His Eternal Word to TAKE THEIR POSITION, as a natural born sinner, as a child of Adam who sinned, that is undone, weighed in the balances and left wanting, or THEY GO TO HELL.

To deny that is Eternally Fatal.

 

[AustinC]

No because that's not biblical soteriology. What you believe is a system that is imposed onto the bible .
Notice Romans 5.11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now recieved the atonement.
So Jesus dies for everyone's sins but look at what has to happen ? they have to recieve it .

The "we," in Romans 5:11, is it the ones who believe or is it all humanity? The "our" in Romans 5:11, is it the ones who believe or is it all humanity?
If it's all humanity then you are back to universalism. If it's just believers then the atonement is limited to believers. Which is it?

There is, by the way, nothing that says a person must do something to make God do something. Look at the verse. You are projecting into the verse what is not there.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Do you have any inclination to write 'Armeninism and Calvinism' on a piece of paper and throw it away and open up a Bible and never mention them again?

I live in the UK its usually one or the other unfortunately.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The "we," in Romans 5:11, is it the ones who believe or is it all humanity? The "our" in Romans 5:11, is it the ones who believe or is it all humanity?
If it's all humanity then you are back to universalism. If it's just believers then the atonement is limited to believers. Which is it?

There is, by the way, nothing that says a person must do something to make God do something. Look at the verse. You are projecting into the verse what is not there.

If were just simply looking at this verse then these believers had to recieve the Atonement. So I think its safe to say all believers had to recieve the Atonement. Therefore even though while we were yet sinners Christ died for us until we recieved the atonement we were lost and without hope and without God . Eph 2.11 .
Now some start using the negative inference fallacy by saying the ' our' and the' US 'only refers to believers or the elect . But yet when Paul says in Gal 2.20
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me

No one thinks Jesus only died for just Paul .

 

[MB]

I don't see (John 6:44) as speaking only to the disciples. The 'All' is identified in (John 6:37). "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

I see (John 12:32) speaking to the same 'All'.

Quantrill

The point is all are drawn.
MB

 

[Quantrill]

The point is all are drawn.
MB

I disagree. If 'all' represents all of mankind, then all are saved. (John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.' The only ones drawn here are those who will be saved.

The verse assumes some are not drawn. Not all can come to Christ.

Quantrill

 

[AustinC]

If were just simply looking at this verse then these believers had to recieve the Atonement. So I think its safe to say all believers had to recieve the Atonement. Therefore even though while we were yet sinners Christ died for us until we recieved the atonement we were lost and without hope and without God . Eph 2.11 .
Now some start using the negative inference fallacy by saying the ' our' and the' US 'only refers to believers or the elect . But yet when Paul says in Gal 2.20
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me

No one thinks Jesus only died for just Paul .

Paul is not saying Jesus only died for him. In Galatians 2:20 Paul is speaking about himself, but it also applies to every believer whom God has made alive with Christ.

What is clear is Jesus atonement is limited to those the Father has given him to believe.

 

[canadyjd]

.....
I believe Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

The moment you concede that God must intervene in a persons life for that person to believe onto salvation you are acknowledging that God choses who will be saved and that “free will” in mankind is a lie.

Even if you “qualify” the word “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike”, you still have God choosing to pass over those who will not respond, because He knows who will respond to that conviction.

And when you qualify “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike” you are saying there is something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe.

In short, God is denied the glory of bringing His people to salvation and given to those “better” people who had something special inside that led them to believe.

peace to you

 

[Alan Gross]

The moment you concede that God must intervene in a persons life for that person to believe onto salvation you are acknowledging that God choses who will be saved and that “free will” in mankind is a lie.

Even if you “qualify” the word “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike”, you still have God choosing to pass over those who will not respond, because He knows who will respond to that conviction.

And when you qualify “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike” you are saying there is something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe.

In short, God is denied the glory of bringing His people to salvation and given to those “better” people who had something special inside that led them to believe.

peace to you

That is extraordinarily beautiful...

...but what should we except from God's Gifts.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Paul is not saying Jesus only died for him. In Galatians 2:20 Paul is speaking about himself, but it also applies to every believer whom God has made alive with Christ.

What is clear is Jesus atonement is limited to those the Father has given him to believe.

I know Paul is not just speaking of him self nor of believers but Jesus died for all sinners . Who is not a ' sinner ' ?
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5.8

1 John 2:2-4


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The moment you concede that God must intervene in a persons life for that person to believe onto salvation you are acknowledging that God choses who will be saved and that “free will” in mankind is a lie.

Even if you “qualify” the word “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike”, you still have God choosing to pass over those who will not respond, because He knows who will respond to that conviction.

And when you qualify “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike” you are saying there is something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe.

In short, God is denied the glory of bringing His people to salvation and given to those “better” people who had something special inside that led them to believe.

peace to you

I see your importing your presups into each statement you made there.

/////The moment you concede that God must intervene in a persons life for that person to believe onto salvation you are acknowledging that God choses who will be saved and that “free will” in mankind is a lie.///// ' intervene ' ? that's general . I simply said about what the Holy Spirit does to the whole world . That does not then conclude ' God chooses who will be saved ' thats a faulty assumption. God has sovereignly chosen to send the Holy Spirit to : And when he is come, he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:



////And when you qualify “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike” you are saying there is something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe./// More faulty assumptions here . How does " occurs to ALL sinners alike " equate " something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe. The Holy Spirit is when he is come, he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Not ,ok bill over there lets give him 85 % sprinkles and Joe he needs 68% sprinkles. No the whole world .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Where does

The moment you concede that God must intervene in a persons life for that person to believe onto salvation you are acknowledging that God choses who will be saved and that “free will” in mankind is a lie.

Even if you “qualify” the word “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike”, you still have God choosing to pass over those who will not respond, because He knows who will respond to that conviction.

And when you qualify “conviction” with “occurs to all sinners alike” you are saying there is something within each person that believes that makes them better than those that don’t, because they chose to believe.

In short, God is denied the glory of bringing His people to salvation and given to those “better” people who had something special inside that led them to believe.

peace to you

Where does it say God passes over anyone ? The Holy Spirit does not ' pass over anyone ' .
It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

 

[canadyjd]

Where does

Where does it say God passes over anyone ? The Holy Spirit does not ' pass over anyone ' .
It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

Ok, again, God is all knowing and all powerful. Do you agree? If God wanted to, He has the power to exert whatever influence is necessary to bring anyone and/or everyone to salvation. Do you agree God has that power? Is God able to bring anyone or everyone He choses to salvation, if He wanted to?

According to your statements, God Holy Spirit must intervene with “conviction” for someone to be saved. You also stated God Holy Spirit convicts all people “the same”. Is that correct?

If that is true, then by God deciding to use the same amount of “conviction” on everyone, knowing that “conviction” will not be powerful enough for many/most to come to salvation, then God has deliberately passed over those people.

Additionally, the people that do respond to “conviction” by God Holy Spirit must have something inside themselves that sets them apart from those that don’t.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

I know Paul is not just speaking of him self nor of believers but Jesus died for all sinners . Who is not a ' sinner ' ?
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5.8

1 John 2:2-4


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Look at both your verses, Barry. In both cases nothing is said or implied that Jesus died for all humanity.
Romans 5:8- The "us" is referring to believers, not to all humanity. (Jesus died for his sheep. Us.)
1 John 2:4 - "Our" sins refers to the believers John is addressing as well as all believers across the whole world. (Jesus died for his sheep. All his sheep.)

Barry, your insistence on universalism and then denying universalism at the same time is your great conundrum.

When all is used, it is in reference to all believers. If it is all humanity, then all humanity is saved. Jesus did not shed his blood in vain.

 

[canadyjd]

Just one more question. What is it exactly about God choosing who will be saved that you find objectionable?

Please don’t tell me it’s a false doctrine based on out of context passages of scripture. I already know you believe that.

What do you find objectionable about God choosing who will be saved?

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

The point is all are drawn.

Look at it carefully, MB.
According to John 6:44, those that are drawn will come to Christ, and all those that come to Christ will be raised up at the last day.


So, if all men everywhere are drawn, then all men are given to Christ by the Father.
All that are given to Christ will come to Him.
All that learn "of" ( by or from ) the Father will come to Christ.
All that believe on Him are the ones given to Him by the Father.

John 6:37-45.

Therefore,
All that are drawn will believe.
Are you following this sequence?

In the end, if all men who have ever lived and died were "drawn" to Christ, then all men who have ever lived are saved.
In other words,
If everyone is drawn, then everyone will believe and everyone will be raised up when Christ comes again instead of part being raised up in one phase, and the rest for the Judgement.

That's Universalism.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Ok, again, God is all knowing and all powerful. Do you agree? If God wanted to, He has the power to exert whatever influence is necessary to bring anyone and/or everyone to salvation. Do you agree God has that power? Is God able to bring anyone or everyone He choses to salvation, if He wanted to?

According to your statements, God Holy Spirit must intervene with “conviction” for someone to be saved. You also stated God Holy Spirit convicts all people “the same”. Is that correct?

If that is true, then by God deciding to use the same amount of “conviction” on everyone, knowing that “conviction” will not be powerful enough for many/most to come to salvation, then God has deliberately passed over those people.

Additionally, the people that do respond to “conviction” by God Holy Spirit must have something inside themselves that sets them apart from those that don’t. We also know at that time the Gospel is going out into the world . 1 cor 15.1-4 . We know from rom 1.16 The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation . And we know from 1 cor 1.21 God is pleased by the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe . We can go to other scriptures ,but I'm not going to start adding to the bible philosophy on what God could or could not do that is not in the bible. However its clear God does know all things but that ' knowledge ' is not causative.

peace to you

Again let's avoid the philosophy. The bible says And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: So this is talking about when the Holy Spirit is given after Jesus ascends and send s the Holy Spirit on the Day of pentacost. From that moment on The Holy Spirit has the above ministry .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Ok, again, God is all knowing and all powerful. Do you agree? If God wanted to, He has the power to exert whatever influence is necessary to bring anyone and/or everyone to salvation. Do you agree God has that power? Is God able to bring anyone or everyone He choses to salvation, if He wanted to?

According to your statements, God Holy Spirit must intervene with “conviction” for someone to be saved. You also stated God Holy Spirit convicts all people “the same”. Is that correct?

If that is true, then by God deciding to use the same amount of “conviction” on everyone, knowing that “conviction” will not be powerful enough for many/most to come to salvation, then God has deliberately passed over those people.

Additionally, the people that do respond to “conviction” by God Holy Spirit must have something inside themselves that sets them apart from those that don’t.

peace to you

See with your deduction I can easily counter that with ' God can execute salvation any way He pleases. which is what I believe. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism.

 

[MB]

I disagree. If 'all' represents all of mankind, then all are saved. (John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.' The only ones drawn here are those who will be saved.

The verse assumes some are not drawn. Not all can come to Christ.

Quantrill

Why do you assume that? The Pharisee's the people who murmured against Him and left because they could not conceive what He was saying about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. They all had been drawn according to you. This is why I said this drawing was for the disciples.

What if the whole world will be saved. Would it upset you and if so why?
The Father sent the son to save the world isn't this the Father's will. I'm not claiming the whole world will be saved. I'm saying that it's God's will.

Obviously there are many who will not be saved because they do not believe. No one is saved with out believing.
MB

 

[MB]

Look at it carefully, MB.
According to John 6:44, those that are drawn will come to Christ, and all those that come to Christ will be raised up at the last day.


So, if all men everywhere are drawn, then all men are given to Christ by the Father.
All that are given to Christ will come to Him.
All that learn "of" ( by or from ) the Father will come to Christ.
All that believe on Him are the ones given to Him by the Father.

John 6:37-45.

Therefore,
All that are drawn will believe.
Are you following this sequence?

In the end, if all men who have ever lived and died were "drawn" to Christ, then all men who have ever lived are saved.
In other words,
If everyone is drawn, then everyone will believe and everyone will be raised up when Christ comes again instead of part being raised up in one phase, and the rest for the Judgement.

That's Universalism.

Since when do all believe? No one is saved with out believing in Christ Jesus. Let me ask you the same question I asked someone else. Would it upset you if all were saved.? Didn't The father send His Son to save the world? Where did Christ say He doesn't want to save the world or do the will of the Father?

I'm not claiming the whole world will be saved because being drawn does not mean you will believe. You are assuming this is so. We already know Judas was drawn but was lost. Look this passage over real close.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
MB