"Maybe its real ,and I'm not Chosen "

[Quantrill]

And yet Jesus says He will draw all men when He be lifted up , signifying what death . So after His death Jesus draws ALL men , making a mockery out of Calvinism and its mistakes choosing to formulate doctrines on salvation based on verses before the Gospel even takes place.

I have already explained the 'all'. And, I am not concerned with 'Calvinism'. I am concerned with Scripture.

All of the Bible is the Word of God. All is for the man of God. (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

Thus, your problem.

Quantrill

 

[Dave G]

@MB
Here's what I see when I read it:

37) ALL that the Father gives to Jesus shall come to Him... Each and every one.
38) Jesus came down from Heaven to do the Father's will, not His own.
39) The Father's will is that Jesus should lose none of those that were given to Jesus by the Father, but should raise them up at the last day.
40) The will of the Father is also every one that sees the Son and believes on Him may have everlasting life, and Jesus shall raise them up at the last day.
41) The Jews complained to Him because He said that He was the bread that came down from Heaven.
42) The Jews then said, "isn't this Jesus, the son of Joseph? Don't we know His mother and father? Why is He saying that He came down from Heaven?"
43) Jesus answered and said, " Don't complain among yourselves."
44) No man can come to me, unless the Father draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
See anything in common here? Who is going to be raised up at the last day?
"All which He has given me" from verse 39, "Every one that sees the Son and believes on Him" from verse 40, and the ones drawn by the Father in this verse.

45) It is written in the prophets ( Isaiah to be more specific, Isaiah 54:13 ), "they shall all be taught of God". Every man that has heard and has learned of the Father comes to Christ.
46) Not that any man has seen the Father, except he which is of God, he has seen the Father.
47) Truly Jesus says, He that believes on me has everlasting life.

Those that were given to the Son by the Father are the same as, those who are "of God"... are the same as, those that are drawn by the Father... are the same as, every one that believes on Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave G]

So, @MB...
According to what I see this entire passage saying,

IF you've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, it was because you were first given to the Lord Jesus to grant eternal life to ( John 17:2 ) by your Heavenly Father.
You were lovingly drawn by the power of the Holy Ghost to His words ( per John 8:43-47 ), and you believed them because you are one of Christ's sheep ( per John 10:26-27 ).
Jesus will then raise you up at the last day, the day of His coming again.

So...
How is any of this a bad thing for you?




As always good sir,
I wish you well, and may you have a pleasant evening.

 

[canadyjd]

I'm happy to discuss the bible .

It has been my observation over the years I’ve been on this board that much quoted and researched bible verses are dismissed out of hand with, “you are taking that out of context.... distorting the clear meaning... reading your pre-conceived beliefs into the text... aren’t smart enough to understand.. and so on and so on.

As I pondered this phenomenon, I began to wonder why anyone would put so much effort into “proving” their beliefs to people who just ignore all that effort and never even consider the point of view you are making.

And so, I have a strategy. I’ll engage folks in conversation and if they seem willing to engage in meaningful conversation, I’m happy to put in the effort. If they appear to be unwilling to engage in meaningful conversation, I will simply thank them for the conversation and move on.

Thank you for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Barry Johnson]

It has been my observation over the years I’ve been on this board that much quoted and researched bible verses are dismissed out of hand with, “you are taking that out of context.... distorting the clear meaning... reading your pre-conceived beliefs into the text... aren’t smart enough to understand.. and so on and so on.

As I pondered this phenomenon, I began to wonder why anyone would put so much effort into “proving” their beliefs to people who just ignore all that effort and never even consider the point of view you are making.

And so, I have a strategy. I’ll engage folks in conversation and if they seem willing to engage in meaningful conversation, I’m happy to put in the effort. If they appear to be unwilling to engage in meaningful conversation, I will simply thank them for the conversation and move on.

Thank you for the conversation

peace to you

its my experience Calvinists are using philosophy and then from that philosophy the bible is viewed through a system . Its a worldview to which the Bible is not the authority but a paradigm.

 

[MB]

Your dichotomy is not biblically sound

I see Jn 12 32 is not Biblical.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

its my experience Calvinists are using philosophy and then from that philosophy the bible is viewed through a system . Its a worldview to which the Bible is not the authority but a paradigm.

Your comments are exactly the kind of response I am speaking of.

Instead of engaging in a meaning conversation, you make a personal attack by claiming I view scripture through a lens of philosophy (you earlier stated something about Hinduism) and that I don’t see the Bible as authoritative.

When you come to a conversation with that kind of thinking, it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion.

Peace to you

 

[AustinC]

I see Jn 12 32 is not Biblical.
MB

You love sentences in isolation. Read the whole so that you can grasp what is actually said.
If we hold your opinion we must be universalists.

John 12:29-43 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

 

[MB]

You love sentences in isolation. Read the whole so that you can grasp what is actually said.
If we hold your opinion we must be universalists.

John 12:29-43 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

Is this suppose to convince me that it doesn't say what it says? That Jesus was lifted up and draws all men unto Him? I think maybe you need to read it your self again because Jn. 12 32 says what it says with or with out the rest of what you posted.
MB

 

[MB]

So, @MB...
According to what I see this entire passage saying,

IF you've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, it was because you were first given to the Lord Jesus to grant eternal life to ( John 17:2 ) by your Heavenly Father.
You were lovingly drawn by the power of the Holy Ghost to His words ( per John 8:43-47 ), and you believed them because you are one of Christ's sheep ( per John 10:26-27 ).
Jesus will then raise you up at the last day, the day of His coming again.

So...
How is any of this a bad thing for you?




As always good sir,
I wish you well, and may you have a pleasant evening.

You have no scripture that say man is saved before he believes. IOW's nothing backs up what you claim is actually true.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Is this suppose to convince me that it doesn't say what it says? That Jesus was lifted up and draws all men unto Him? I think maybe you need to read it your self again because Jn. 12 32 says what it says with or with out the rest of what you posted.
MB

It should convince you that your assertion is wrong. However, it's doubtful you will read the whole and thus understand what God is saying to us. You are free to ignore and thus remain ignorant.

 

[MB]

It should convince you that your assertion is wrong. However, it's doubtful you will read the whole and thus understand what God is saying to us. You are free to ignore and thus remain ignorant.

For your information I did read and have read it many times over the years and nothing in Jn. 12 supports you at all Verse 32 still says Christ will draw all men to Him. All men means exactly that. It does not mean the elect it does mean the chosen, or Calvinist for that matter.
There is nothing in scripture that supports Calvinism or you. And what you may think of me rolls off me like water off a duck's back.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Your comments are exactly the kind of response I am speaking of.

Instead of engaging in a meaning conversation, you make a personal attack by claiming I view scripture through a lens of philosophy (you earlier stated something about Hinduism) and that I don’t see the Bible as authoritative.

When you come to a conversation with that kind of thinking, it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion.

Peace to you

Not personal . The problem with holding to Calvinism ( whist appreciating its not monolithic) it is easy to critique. The 5 points understood are exposed and packaged in such a way we can poke at it . I'm not being personal. I'm saying those that hold to the ' TULIP worldview ' do base their arguments on philosophy. Its usually the question of freewill and God's soverinty.

 

[canadyjd]

Not personal . The problem with holding to Calvinism ( whist appreciating its not monolithic) it is easy to critique. The 5 points understood are exposed and packaged in such a way we can poke at it . I'm not being personal. I'm saying those that hold to the ' TULIP worldview ' do base their arguments on philosophy. Its usually the question of freewill and God's soverinty.

Even if it is unintended on your part, it is personal when you question the foundation of my beliefs. I base my beliefs on scripture. I attempt to view scripture in the context it was written.
I am always willing to change my mind, but I have to be convinced from scripture.

I understand you disagree with my beliefs and I would enjoy a conversation about scripture. But if you come to the conversation believing the foundation of my beliefs is Hindu fatalism, then I’m going to spend all my time trying to refute that claim, and you will dismiss out of hand any argument I make.

I see such an effort as a meaningless.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

For your information I did read and have read it many times over the years and nothing in Jn. 12 supports you at all Verse 32 still says Christ will draw all men to Him. All men means exactly that. It does not mean the elect it does mean the chosen, or Calvinist for that matter.
There is nothing in scripture that supports Calvinism or you. And what you may think of me rolls off me like water off a duck's back.
MB

That's simply false. Everything in John 12 shows you that you have misunderstood.

We're not talking about Calvin. We're talking about John 12. You cannot fall on your crutch.

 

[MB]

That's simply false. Everything in John 12 shows you that you have misunderstood.

We're not talking about Calvin. We're talking about John 12. You cannot fall on your crutch.

It's simple you don't know what you are talking about
Your so unpleasant I placed you on my do not respond list
.MB

 

[MB]

Even if it is unintended on your part, it is personal when you question the foundation of my beliefs. I base my beliefs on scripture. I attempt to view scripture in the context it was written.
I am always willing to change my mind, but I have to be convinced from scripture.


I understand you disagree with my beliefs and I would enjoy a conversation about scripture. But if you come to the conversation believing the foundation of my beliefs is Hindu fatalism, then I’m going to spend all my time trying to refute that claim, and you will dismiss out of hand any argument I make.

I see such an effort as a meaningless.

peace to you

With you it's always the same you take offense when ever your wrong and get mad because you cannot prove what you believe. Typical Calvinist
MB

 

[atpollard]

With you it's always the same you take offense when ever your wrong and get mad because you cannot prove what you believe. Typical Calvinist
MB

How could anyone possibly find the accusation that their Christian beliefs are really non-biblical, Hindu philosophy offensive?
People are just so darn thin skinned, right? You meant it in a GOOD WAY. You were just trying to edify another believer.

The only part that I don't understand is how can he be "wrong" if he refused to talk with you? Doesn't he need to say something to be wrong?

For example:

With you it's always the same

This is wrong, because canadyjd responds in lots of different ways to different things, so it is always different.

... you take offense when ever your wrong and get mad because you cannot prove what you believe ...

This is wrong, too. canadyjd said nothing about being mad, what he said was he didn't want to waste time "talking" with you if you had already made up your mind and had no intention of listening to anything he said. Right and wrong do not enter into it. He stated the sort of dialog he desired to have and that you clearly wanted to have a different sort of dialog.

Typical Calvinist.

Here again you have made a statement, and that statement appears incorrect. Very few of the Calvinists on this board would walk away from you and simply state that they have no desire to have a conversation with you. Most would take your anti-Calvinist baiting and respond with some sort of negative post about how your theology is wrong. Some Calvinists would be quite dogmatic in their efforts to correct you.

I hope you can see the difference. You made clear statements that were easily refuted as false, while the gist of canadyjd's message has been:

I understand you disagree with my beliefs and I would enjoy a conversation about scripture. But if you come to the conversation believing the foundation of my beliefs is Hindu fatalism, then I’m going to spend all my time trying to refute that claim, and you will dismiss out of hand any argument I make.

I see such an effort as a meaningless.

 

[canadyjd]

With you it's always the same you take offense when ever your wrong and get mad because you cannot prove what you believe. Typical Calvinist
MB

First, I’m not mad at anyone or anything. I’m simply explaining why I’m not going to spend an enormous amount of time and energy trying to present my beliefs in biblical context to people who will not even consider what is written and dismiss it out of hand.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

It's simple you don't know what you are talking about
Your so unpleasant I placed you on my do not respond list
.MB

I know what John wrote in chapter 12 and it's not what you teach.