Medication vs 'Self" medicating

[agedman]

You still did not answer my question.
Can you tell me who said that Tourette Syndrome, epilepsy, and autism was due to sin?
[/FONT]

Actually, you apparently misunderstood the OP statement.

To derail consideration that ADD, ADHD, OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder), OPD (oppositional personality disorder), Tourette Syndrome, epilepsy, and autism is a manifestation of sin, this thread is to take the position that such may certainly be Godly attributes in which the person is strengthened and a testimony for others of God's great grace.​

I did not state anyone had said the question in bold that you asked, but was making a conditional statement in which such an argument was not the point of this thread.

Do you desire it to be part of the thread?

Do you consider "that ADD, ADHD, OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder), OPD (oppositional personality disorder), Tourette Syndrome, epilepsy, and autism is a manifestation of sin?"

 

[freeatlast]

Actually, you apparently misunderstood the OP statement.

To derail consideration that ADD, ADHD, OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder), OPD (oppositional personality disorder), Tourette Syndrome, epilepsy, and autism is a manifestation of sin, this thread is to take the position that such may certainly be Godly attributes in which the person is strengthened and a testimony for others of God's great grace.
​

I did not state anyone had said the question in bold that you asked, but was making a conditional statement in which such an argument was not the point of this thread.

Do you desire it to be part of the thread?

Do you consider "that ADD, ADHD, OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder), OPD (oppositional personality disorder), Tourette Syndrome, epilepsy, and autism is a manifestation of sin?"

Mixing different types of medical conditions with non medical conditions makes the question void as it is a baiting question. So I ask you;
Can you tell me who said that Tourette Syndrome, epilepsy, and autism was due to sin?
You need to seperate the two types and ask it seperately.

 

[DiamondLady]

Drugs mask sin Confession and forsaking sets free..

You know the problem with blanket statements such as this? They're easily proved false. Can drugs mask? Yes. Do they ALWAYS mask? No. Sometimes they allow a person to SEE their sin.

I am not a person who believes in running to the doctor to get a pill for every little problem of life. But I do believe, on the other hand, that God has gifted men and women the ability to heal through medicine, to help and aid people in living more fulfilling lives.

Are there mental problems that a pill won't help? Sure, absolutely. But I think we need to realize that there are more problems medication WILL help. Will a pill make a gay person less gay? Never. Will a pill take away a man's lust? Never. Will a pill help a little boy sit in his seat in kindergarten? Every day. Will a pill help people realize personal limits? Absolutely.

There's a difference, FAL, not all pegs are the same and they fit into different size holes.

 

[freeatlast]

You know the problem with blanket statements such as this? They're easily proved false. Can drugs mask? Yes. Do they ALWAYS mask? No. Sometimes they allow a person to SEE their sin.

I am not a person who believes in running to the doctor to get a pill for every little problem of life. But I do believe, on the other hand, that God has gifted men and women the ability to heal through medicine, to help and aid people in living more fulfilling lives.

Are there mental problems that a pill won't help? Sure, absolutely. But I think we need to realize that there are more problems medication WILL help. Will a pill make a gay person less gay? Never. Will a pill take away a man's lust? Never. Will a pill help a little boy sit in his seat in kindergarten? Every day. Will a pill help people realize personal limits? Absolutely.

There's a difference, FAL, not all pegs are the same and they fit into different size holes.

Show me in scripture where drugs are to be used to figure out we have sin. The only help a drug can offer for bad behavior is to cover the sin not expose it or cure it. If a drug could do what you suggest then we all need to be on drugs but God says confess and forsake. We are not to rely on drugs but the Spirit to point out our sins, drugs quench the Spirit not help Him.

 

[agedman]

Mixing different types of medical conditions with non medical conditions makes the question void as it is a baiting question. So I ask you;
Can you tell me who said that Tourette Syndrome, epilepsy, and autism was due to sin?
You need to seperate the two types and ask it seperately.

Then who is the authority to say what is and is not a medical condition?

 

[freeatlast]

Then who is the authority to say what is and is not a medical condition?

Well they once said homosexuality was a mental illness and God calls it sin. They claim that alcoholism is an illness, God calls it sin. They claim eating disorders are an illness, God calls them sin. So I think I will stick with God “THEE Authority” and you stick with the medical people.
If drugs were the way to deal with in in any fashion then we all need to be on drugs.

 

[Arbo]

Well they once said homosexuality was a mental illness and God calls it sin. They claim that alcoholism is an illness, God calls it sin. They claim eating disorders are an illness, God calls them sin. So I think I will stick with God “THEE Authority” and you stick with the medical people.
If drugs were the way to deal with in in any fashion then we all need to be on drugs.

Are you saying people should not seek medical advice? That's what it seems like.

 

[agedman]

Show me in scripture where drugs are to be used to figure out we have sin. The only help a drug can offer for bad behavior is to cover the sin not expose it or cure it. If a drug could do what you suggest then we all need to be on drugs.

FAL,

You seem to consider that, "The only help a drug can offer for bad behavior is to cover the sin not expose it or cure it."

Can you prove that statement?

When the tabernacle and all the vestments of the ministry were made and ordained, the oil was from the apothecary - what we might call a medical doctor and the oil a medical mixture.

Would you not agree that if God used such to establish what was holy then would it not follow that approval of medical helps were beneficial and not merely "covering the sin."

Then, by stating, "If a drug could do what you suggest then we all need to be on drugs." you invite a further critical view of the extreme.

Throughout this thread, medical helps has been targeted to those who perhaps could use medication because of a physical deficit. It is never about "covering sin" or "confessing and forsaking."

In fact, no one is opposed to confessing and forsaking, and no one would suggest agreement that "covering sin" was anything more than love. (see Proverbs 10:12)

It might seem you carve out what you consider good medical helps for some areas the OP list, but not allow medical helps for all the ones listed.

 

[agedman]

Well they once said homosexuality was a mental illness and God calls it sin. They claim that alcoholism is an illness, God calls it sin. They claim eating disorders are an illness, God calls them sin. So I think I will stick with God “THEE Authority” and you stick with the medical people.
If drugs were the way to deal with in in any fashion then we all need to be on drugs.

But none of these were listed in the OP, were they?

There is no argument that sin abounds in many evil manifestations in the areas of your post.

BUT, that is not the authority you seem to seek.

When you posted,

"Mixing different types of medical conditions with non medical conditions makes the question void as it is a baiting question. So I ask you;
Can you tell me who said that Tourette Syndrome, epilepsy, and autism was due to sin?
You need to seperate the two types and ask it seperately."​

I ask, "Then who is the authority to say what is and is not a medical condition?"

Your response did not address that question.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Since my diagnosis 3 years ago and startting treatment, I have become increasing more aware of my spiritual state and my relationship with God.

I honestly believe that God made my condition worse by allowing me to be born with this illness so that I could later become a better person later.

Noone can say for sure, but I feel in my heart that i am a better person and seravnt to God WITH the illness than I would be if it didnt exist.

And don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that I am a good person in the flesh, (none of us are), I am simply saying that I am a better person in spirit because of the trials I have been through.

John

 

[DiamondLady]

Show me in scripture where drugs are to be used to figure out we have sin. The only help a drug can offer for bad behavior is to cover the sin not expose it or cure it. If a drug could do what you suggest then we all need to be on drugs but God says confess and forsake. We are not to rely on drugs but the Spirit to point out our sins, drugs quench the Spirit not help Him.

FAL, you know as well as I do that there is no passage that says, "thou shalt take a pill". However, did not God give man the knowledge and ability to help others through medicine? Didn't Paul tell Timothy to take a little wine for his upset stomach? (Timothy probably had a stomach ulcer) Bible people used what they had on hand at the time for medication....herbs, tree barks, flowers. Now we call that homeopathic medicine. Was not Luke a doctor?

Not ALL bad behavior is caused by sin. Is some? Absolutely. We have a man in our church, he speaks out, comes up on the podium and helps direct the music,, repeats what people say and says, "yeah", passes gas and laughs about it. (All during the service). Is his behavior Sin? NO...he's mentally challenged and has the mind of a child. He does take medication to help him control these impulses, but they're still not sin and he's certainly not masking any sin. He loves church, loves Jesus....His favorite song that he loves to help direct? Jesus Loves Me. Michael accepted the Lord one day. He can barely speak in coherent words, yet God still touched his heart. We all love Michael and so we overlook his passing gas and smile when he wants to direct the music...but they're not sins.

It's okay not to be so rigid on things that you fail to see that not all situations are the same and that God sees the heart and can handle it all. If you know someone who is taking medications to mask sin, then pray for them. Befriend them and help them to understand that God loves them and wants to forgive their sin. It'll get you a lot further than screaming in their face about how horrid they are. "While passing through this world of sin,...Let Others See Jesus in You."

 

[seekingthetruth]

Show me in scripture where drugs are to be used to figure out we have sin. The only help a drug can offer for bad behavior is to cover the sin not expose it or cure it. If a drug could do what you suggest then we all need to be on drugs but God says confess and forsake. We are not to rely on drugs but the Spirit to point out our sins, drugs quench the Spirit not help Him.

First of all, the Bible does not give instructions for every given situation. The Bible teaches principles not specifics. We are told to rightly divide the teachings in those principles and apply them to our situation.

When a person argues that "it can't right because it is not in the Bible", they are basically stating that they have no knowledge of the principles that the Bible teaches.

A better understanding of biblical principle would give you more understanding and compassion for others. Being dogmatic without understanding is dangerous to yourself and to others.

John

 

[abcgrad94]

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That is, if an ADD child has been properly medicated and properly raised, then they will grow in wisdom and understanding of their own weakness and through the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God learn to deal appropriately with the sin that occurs.

If they are properly raised they will grow in wisdom and understanding of how to deal with the sin without a drug as they would know that confessing and forsaking will overcome their sins.
[/B]

You are showing your extreme ignorance by saying ADD behavior is a sin. As the parent of a child with ADD, I'm calling you out on this, because your judgmental, condemning attitude here is getting really, really old. Attitudes like yours are VERY harmful to people with ADD and can cause them confusion and give them scars they will carry their whole lives if they listen to such nonsense.

A person CANNOT HELP it if they have ADD. Do you have a child with ADD? Have you even had experience teaching children with this learning problem? It has nothing to do with sin. It has everything to do with how their brain functions. It is not a sin to have a hard time focusing, or sitting still, or needing to engage both halves of the brain at the same time to learn properly.

 

[agedman]

A person CANNOT HELP it if they have ADD. Do you have a child with ADD? Have you even had experience teaching children with this learning problem? It has nothing to do with sin. It has everything to do with how their brain functions. It is not a sin to have a hard time focusing, or sitting still, or needing to engage both halves of the brain at the same time to learn properly.

A LOT of bad information about medications and treatments are out there.

For example, some have actually bought into the idea that diet, or limiting sugar intake, or modified environment... can fix these conditions. That isn't true. Neither is it true that those ares are not to be taken into consideration. Extremes are problematic.

More to the point is what you stated about how the brain functions.

As a youth, one of the school field trips was to a "mental health" facility. We saw what I can only describe as mid-evil compared to what we know in this current time. I am certain that (if the Lord tarries) our own understanding will also be considered foolish, and ridiculed by those a 100 years from now.

Perhaps as the discussion continues, we will enjoy more anecdotal posts of the tribulation and triumphs parents, children, educators, pastors, and general pew sitters have witnessed.

There are so many tragedies and mistakes that have been made that might have all been avoided had Godly and accurate information and help been given.

 

[DiamondLady]

You are showing your extreme ignorance by saying ADD behavior is a sin. As the parent of a child with ADD, I'm calling you out on this, because your judgmental, condemning attitude here is getting really, really old. Attitudes like yours are VERY harmful to people with ADD and can cause them confusion and give them scars they will carry their whole lives if they listen to such nonsense.

A person CANNOT HELP it if they have ADD. Do you have a child with ADD? Have you even had experience teaching children with this learning problem? It has nothing to do with sin. It has everything to do with how their brain functions. It is not a sin to have a hard time focusing, or sitting still, or needing to engage both halves of the brain at the same time to learn properly.

I so agree with you. Our oldest son has discalculia. Big word to say his brain lacks synapses that allow him to calculate. In other words, the boy can't add in his head. He can memorize 2 + 2 but his brain lacks the ability to do sums in his head. We taught him techniques to work around the problem. It's the same in children with ADD/ADHD. It's how their brain functions...or fails to. Medication certainly doesn't mask it.

Some people simply need to get an education in mental illnesses.

 

[HAMel]

...you folks are shoveling sand against the tide.

I am on five doses of chemicals a day. Just enough to keep my arteries clear and the blood thin enough to make it's appointed rounds.

I don't like taking these chemicals but my age is creeping up on me and the time has come to start getting my affairs in order even if I live another 10 years. Nothing to do with "sin" even though I do sin on a daily basis but for sure, we are all going to die one day in the flesh, due to that original sin. Personally, I'll be glad when it's all over. :thumbs:

 

[agedman]

First of all, the Bible does not give instructions for every given situation. The Bible teaches principles not specifics. We are told to rightly divide the teachings in those principles and apply them to our situation.

When a person argues that "it can't right because it is not in the Bible", they are basically stating that they have no knowledge of the principles that the Bible teaches.

A better understanding of biblical principle would give you more understanding and compassion for others. Being dogmatic without understanding is dangerous to yourself and to others.

John

Understanding does not always equate to living by Biblical principle which is one of the keys to a victorious Christ like walk.

Many might preach and/or teach and have lives that bring shame and rebuke. It is application that is necessary.

We believers who have been a witness or even carry scars of the horrible background endured during formative years do tend to be re-actively rigid and hold to Biblical precepts; we at times look with some measure of disdain upon anything that might move us out of our "comfort zone" security. Rather than Biblical principles building personal precepts, we (generally speaking) use Biblical precepts to build personal principles. There must be a balance; both precept and principle are important to the believer.

One of the neat passages in Scripture is the opening of Romans 5. The verses show a series of steps that "educate" the believer into ultimate purpose for which God saved us.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.​

 

[freeatlast]

FAL,

You seem to consider that, "The only help a drug can offer for bad behavior is to cover the sin not expose it or cure it."

Can you prove that statement?

When the tabernacle and all the vestments of the ministry were made and ordained, the oil was from the apothecary - what we might call a medical doctor and the oil a medical mixture.

Would you not agree that if God used such to establish what was holy then would it not follow that approval of medical helps were beneficial and not merely "covering the sin."

Then, by stating, "If a drug could do what you suggest then we all need to be on drugs." you invite a further critical view of the extreme.

Throughout this thread, medical helps has been targeted to those who perhaps could use medication because of a physical deficit. It is never about "covering sin" or "confessing and forsaking."

In fact, no one is opposed to confessing and forsaking, and no one would suggest agreement that "covering sin" was anything more than love. (see Proverbs 10:12)

It might seem you carve out what you consider good medical helps for some areas the OP list, but not allow medical helps for all the ones listed.

I would ask you to show me someone who has had their sin cured by a drug. The only thing that happens is to mask it not fix it. The proof is one of the posters here who uses drugs and he still went went into a rage while on the drug. Drugs for behavior are nothing but a covering and even that does not work well. The bible gives the cure for sin an it is being rejected to accept the way of the world. Confession and forsaking is the only way to deal with sin, not drugs.

 

[agedman]

...you folks are shoveling sand against the tide.

I am on five doses of chemicals a day. Just enough to keep my arteries clear and the blood thin enough to make it's appointed rounds.

I don't like taking these chemicals but my age is creeping up on me and the time has come to start getting my affairs in order even if I live another 10 years. Nothing to do with "sin" even though I do sin on a daily basis but for sure, we are all going to die one day in the flesh, due to that original sin. Personally, I'll be glad when it's all over. :thumbs:

"Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

Would that My Bride and I spend this evening breathing in the wonders of the celestial in your presence!

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, you know as well as I do that there is no passage that says, "thou shalt take a pill". However, did not God give man the knowledge and ability to help others through medicine? Didn't Paul tell Timothy to take a little wine for his upset stomach? (Timothy probably had a stomach ulcer) Bible people used what they had on hand at the time for medication....herbs, tree barks, flowers. Now we call that homeopathic medicine. Was not Luke a doctor?

Not ALL bad behavior is caused by sin. Is some? Absolutely. We have a man in our church, he speaks out, comes up on the podium and helps direct the music,, repeats what people say and says, "yeah", passes gas and laughs about it. (All during the service). Is his behavior Sin? NO...he's mentally challenged and has the mind of a child. He does take medication to help him control these impulses, but they're still not sin and he's certainly not masking any sin. He loves church, loves Jesus....His favorite song that he loves to help direct? Jesus Loves Me. Michael accepted the Lord one day. He can barely speak in coherent words, yet God still touched his heart. We all love Michael and so we overlook his passing gas and smile when he wants to direct the music...but they're not sins.

It's okay not to be so rigid on things that you fail to see that not all situations are the same and that God sees the heart and can handle it all. If you know someone who is taking medications to mask sin, then pray for them. Befriend them and help them to understand that God loves them and wants to forgive their sin. It'll get you a lot further than screaming in their face about how horrid they are. "While passing through this world of sin,...Let Others See Jesus in You."

Medical intervention and spiritual issues do not blend. The only remedy for sin is confession and forsaking, not drugs. God has given the way to deal with sin. Some people just do not trust Him for it.