Messianic Kingdom

[Pastor Larry]

The verse you quoted proves that before Pentecost the disciples were expecting Jesus to set up an earthly kingdom according to the "traditions" the Rabbis had taught them all their lives, that's all it proves.

So why didn't Jesus correct them? He allowed them to go on believing what you call a lie about an earthly kingdom. Why would Jesus do that? Why didn't he tell them, "You misunderstand the kingdom"?

After Pentecost, the kingdom they teach is the same kingdom Jesus taught, the heavenly

kingdom of God. Indeed, on the day of Pentecost itself Peter explained to his Jewish listeners that Jesus was the fulfillment of the ancient Davidic promise.

Really? Then what is the "period of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time"?

You guys are talking about a "spiritual kingdom" or a "heavenly kingdom." Yet the word "restoration" talks of something that previously existed. This "heavenly kingdom" never existed. The OT prophets prophesied of a restoration of the kingdom that previously existed, which was an earthly kingdom.

So what is the restoration?

 

[OldRegular]

And what's that?

DT is based on the premise that God meant what he said. I don't think that is false, but perhaps you differ.

Then answer the question posed in the OP. It should be very simple if what you claim is true. Shall I repeat it?

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

 

[Me4Him]

I agree! Therefore, it appears that dispensational theology is based on a false premise. They dug themselves a hole and instead of climbing out they continue to dig deeper.

You're the one who is in the HOLE, but don't know it.

The "hole" of believing you're got it all figured out and there's nothing "NEW" to learn, so you've "CLOSED YOUR EYES/EARS".

But sad to say, you've got a lot of "company".

Baptist doctrine, Southern/OldRegular, won't take you to heaven, only the "TRUTH", learning the truth is the first priority, then you'll know which denomination/doctrine is closes to the truth.

Mormons, among others, go to church, say lord, lord, believe their doctrine, but it's not the "TRUTH".

Hell is forever, no second chance, do you think I'm going to put my trust/soul in some denomination/doctrine when Jesus sent the "Comforter" to lead/guide in all truth and all I have to do is "LISTEN"???

I may be dumb, stupid, poor, ugly, but I'm no "FOOL".

If my "Southern Baptist church" ever stops preaching what "I KNOW" to be the "TRUTH", as confirmed by the "Comforter", I won't hesitate to leave.

I'm a "Christian" first, a "Baptist" second, Baptist may change, Christian never will, but some folks have their priorities backwards.

Open your eyes/ears, get out of the "denominational rut", you'll be surprised at what you can learn.

 

[OldRegular]

You're the one who is in the HOLE, but don't know it.

The "hole" of believing you're got it all figured out and there's nothing "NEW" to learn, so you've "CLOSED YOUR EYES/EARS".

But sad to say, you've got a lot of "company".

Baptist doctrine, Southern/OldRegular, won't take you to heaven, only the "TRUTH", learning the truth is the first priority, then you'll know which denomination/doctrine is closes to the truth.

Mormons, among others, go to church, say lord, lord, believe their doctrine, but it's not the "TRUTH".

Hell is forever, no second chance, do you think I'm going to put my trust/soul in some denomination/doctrine when Jesus sent the "Comforter" to lead/guide in all truth and all I have to do is "LISTEN"???

I may be dumb, stupid, poor, ugly, but I'm no "FOOL".

If my "Southern Baptist church" ever stops preaching what "I KNOW" to be the "TRUTH", as confirmed by the "Comforter", I won't hesitate to leave.

I'm a "Christian" first, a "Baptist" second, Baptist may change, Christian never will, but some folks have their priorities backwards.

Open your eyes/ears, get out of the "denominational rut", you'll be surprised at what you can learn.

Me4Him

All the above is nonsense. You have already admitted that the question I asked cannot be answered.

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him

All the above is nonsense. You have already admitted that the question I asked cannot be answered.

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

You can't "SEE/UNDERSTAND" what you have no desire to "SEE/UNDERSTAND".

Not even "GOD", if he was standing there talking "FACE TO FACE" to you.

Israel believed they had it all figured out, look at the trap/snare they fell into,

Don't think it can't happen to you.

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

You can't hid behind a Denomination/Doctrine/Theology,

like Adam/Eve, Israel tried to hid in the fig leaves of a promise made to Abraham,

But a "Strong rushing wind" shook the Fig tree and many of them fell off,

and it's going to be the same for the churches,

God's judgment isn't by "Denominations/Doctrines", it's "INDIVIDUALLY",

That's why "individuals" are held accountable.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

You didn't answer OldRegular's question.

He asks you, where verse in the Bible that Christ did say anything that he offered an EARTHLY Messianic kingdom to the Jews?

He is waiting for you to prove a verse that Christ did actual offers an earthly messianic kingdom to the Jews.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[OldRegular]

You can't "SEE/UNDERSTAND" what you have no desire to "SEE/UNDERSTAND".

Not even "GOD", if he was standing there talking "FACE TO FACE" to you.

Israel believed they had it all figured out, look at the trap/snare they fell into,

Don't think it can't happen to you.

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

You can't hid behind a Denomination/Doctrine/Theology,

like Adam/Eve, Israel tried to hid in the fig leaves of a promise made to Abraham,

But a "Strong rushing wind" shook the Fig tree and many of them fell off,

and it's going to be the same for the churches,

God's judgment isn't by "Denominations/Doctrines", it's "INDIVIDUALLY",

That's why "individuals" are held accountable.

You are hiding behind the flawed dispensational doctrine of Darby and Scofield!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Topic Mantra: // Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? //

Who is 'the Lord' in this future place ON EARTH?

Ezekiel 48:35 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
It was rounde about eighteene thousande measures, and the name of the citie from that day shalbe, The Lord is there.

The-LORD-is-there, Israel !

 

[Ed Edwards]

A discussion of the same matters as in; this thread is being held here (for all Christians, not just Baptists):

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1331345

especially answering this topic montra:

// Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? //

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Please go over there at general religions discussion, that I made post about three kingdoms of God.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him,

You didn't answer OldRegular's question.

He asks you, where verse in the Bible that Christ did say anything that he offered an EARTHLY Messianic kingdom to the Jews?

He is waiting for you to prove a verse that Christ did actual offers an earthly messianic kingdom to the Jews.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Jesus answer every question asked of him, but they didn't understand his answers, why, they didn't have the "Spiritual discernment" necessary to understand.

Don't ask a question if you're not going to accept an answer that is different than what you think it should be and expect.

You don't know what you're rejecting, "OR ACCEPTING", until you understand it, one is as bad as the other if it's the wrong thing.

Closed minds never learn how God or the enemy operates, intelligent gathering is an important part of any war, literal or spiritual.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

Care prove a verse to us, please? :saint:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed,

Please go over there at general religions discussion, that I made post about three kingdoms of God.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Thank you Brother DeafPosttrib. I feel like grasshopper - hopping forth to five or six different topics. Just the one topic aught to be enough (except for persons who really don't want to talk to me, they can use their own topics & I'll use mine :type: )

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jesus answer every question asked of him, but they didn't understand his answers, why, they didn't have the "Spiritual discernment" necessary to understand.

Don't ask a question if you're not going to accept an answer that is different than what you think it should be and expect.

You don't know what you're rejecting, "OR ACCEPTING", until you understand it, one is as bad as the other if it's the wrong thing.

Closed minds never learn how God or the enemy operates, intelligent gathering is an important part of any war, literal or spiritual.

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it! :thumbs:

I have an answer, but the answer is to complicated to those who really want a two word answer.

DeafPosttrib: // He asks you, where verse in the Bible that Christ did say anything that he offered an EARTHLY Messianic kingdom to the Jews? //

He actually want's one and only one verse. This amounts to making a DEMAND on how God organizes God's Written Word. Only the people willing to STUDY God's Written Word find the best goodies.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

My demand?

The fact is, premillennialism, itself teaches that God still have special plan for Jews and Israel. It teaches that both Church and Israel are always distinction of God's program. They believe during Millennial kingdom, Israel will be the wold's capitol, and Jews will have special administration to rule over Gentiles.

Yet, their teachings are not biblical. Because, they fail to understanding the New Testament clearly make manifest Old Testament by fulfilled prophecies which concerning Jesus Christ and Calvary. Christ already made new covenant with many, not just for Jews only, also all nations by through his own blood of Calvary. The old covenant is now no longer effect upon us. Because Christ's blood already made atonement over our sins at once.

Now, we do not need another future physical high priests, physical sacrifices, physical temple anymore. Now, we are priests(Rev. 1:6). Christ replaced earthly temple, by his resurrection. Noe Christ is the temple. Nation was taken away from unbelieving, and given to Gentiles, now Church is a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9).

There is not a single verse find anywhere in New Testament say that unbelieving Jews will have another future literal physical building of temple again. Also, there is not a single verse find in New Testament say that, Jews will have an earthly Messianic nation again in future. WE do not need earthly or physical nation again anymore. Because it is mortal and sin. Now we have a perfect nation is given from Christ through calvary.

Church is Israel, Israel is Church. Church does not replace Israel. Church always Israel from the beginning. Gnetiles grafted with believing Jews in Olive Tree, now Israel is just expanding for 2000 years, and continue expanding because of accept Christ to become citizenship of commonwealth of Israel. God only have one family, and one wife.

So far, Larry, Me4Him, Ed, and others not yet prove us a clear verse find anywhere in N.T. & in four gospels that Christ offers Jews an earthly Messianic nation. Therefore, Dispensationalism doctrine is fallacy and fill of philosophy and men-making doctrine. It have no true foundation base upon God's Word with truth.

We have to read and throughout Bible from O.T. to N.T. to understand God's plan for us of salvation. Whole Bible is all about Jesus Christ, not just for Jews only.

We do not have to look down at physical earthly things. These are temporary, incorruptible, and sin. We have to look up above of heavenly things which are complete perfect and holy that Christ did fulfiiled them through Calvary and his resurrection.

So, OldRegular and I both are waiting for any disps to show us a clear verse in four gospels and N.T. say that Christ offers an earthly Messianic nation to Jews. If you know a clear verse, then show it to us then I will believe verse would support dispensationalism doctrine.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Pastor Larry]

So far, Larry, Me4Him, Ed, and others not yet prove us a clear verse find anywhere in N.T. & in four gospels that Christ offers Jews an earthly Messianic nation.

Let me ask you this: Why do you not believe the OT? Do you think God was lying in the OT? Your insistence on NT and Gospels only is a disservice to the whole counsel of God.

The fact is that the NT in Acts 3 makes clear that it was an earthly kingdom since it is a "restoration that was prophesied." How can you possibly deny that? IT is looking back to the OT and saying that those prophets prophesied of a restored kingdom that comes when thew Jews repent. Yet you want to deny that.

The gospels repeatedly say "The kingdom of God is at hand." That was a reference to the OT kingdom and its prophesies, and it was on earth. Jesus told the Pharisees "The kingdom of God is in your midst." The idea that it was inside of them as some suggest is silly since the Pharisees rejected Jesus and the kingdom of God in any case wouldn't be inside of those who reject Jesus. When Jesus said that, he was referring to his works and miracles on earth as a manifestation of the kingdom.

The truth is that we, as dispensationalists, accept the whole Bible equally. We believe God meant what he said in the OT as well as the NT.

Therefore, Dispensationalism doctrine is fallacy and fill of philosophy and men-making doctrine. It have no true foundation base upon God's Word with truth.

This is a major logical and argumentative error that fills the posts of you and yours. You think that if no one here can offer proof that dispensationalism must be false. That is a non sequitur. It may be that no one here is able to offer proof, but that doesn't mean that proof doesn't exist.

So in addition to clear biblica problems, you have logical and argumentative problems.

 

[Havensdad]

Israel has NEVER been according to the flesh...

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

#1 Will there be a earthly Millennial Kingdom?

Yes.

#2 Who will take part in it?

Israel: the seed of Abraham.

#3 Who is Israel?

Every single person saved by Christ, regardless of blood lineage, Old Testament and New. We are ALL EQUALLY Israel. There are no promises for Israel that we do not inherit. We are "heirs to the promise".

 

[OldRegular]

Israel has NEVER been according to the flesh...

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

#1 Will there be a earthly Millennial Kingdom?

Yes.

#2 Who will take part in it?

Israel: the seed of Abraham.

#3 Who is Israel?

Every single person saved by Christ, regardless of blood lineage, Old Testament and New. We are ALL EQUALLY Israel. There are no promises for Israel that we do not inherit. We are "heirs to the promise".

Though I am amillennial I have posted some information on covenant premillennialism by George Eldon Ladd on the thread What happens to the Jews after the Millennium? in response to a claim by Pastor Larry You may find it interesting.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Post #116 above (Baptist Only) above is discussed in this topic/post:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1331985

the referenced topic is in an All Christians Forum.

 

[Me4Him]

Ed,

My demand?

The fact is, premillennialism, itself teaches that God still have special plan for Jews and Israel. It teaches that both Church and Israel are always distinction of God's program. They believe during Millennial kingdom, Israel will be the wold's capitol, and Jews will have special administration to rule over Gentiles.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.


Zec 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.

23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Don't you read your Bible???

Now, we do not need another future physical high priests, physical sacrifices, physical temple anymore. Now, we are priests(Rev. 1:6). Christ replaced earthly temple, by his resurrection. Noe Christ is the temple. Nation was taken away from unbelieving, and given to Gentiles, now Church is a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9).

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

There is not a single verse find anywhere in New Testament say that unbelieving Jews will have another future literal physical building of temple again. Also, there is not a single verse find in New Testament say that, Jews will have an earthly Messianic nation again in future. WE do not need earthly or physical nation again anymore. Because it is mortal and sin. Now we have a perfect nation is given from Christ through calvary.

There's no verses speaking about Jesus/church in the OT either, reason it's a mystery to Israel, but does Jesus/church exist???

So far, Larry, Me4Him, Ed, and others not yet prove us a clear verse find anywhere in N.T. & in four gospels that Christ offers Jews an earthly Messianic nation. Therefore, Dispensationalism doctrine is fallacy and fill of philosophy and men-making doctrine. It have no true foundation base upon God's Word with truth.

Your "SO FAR" has just been Shot down. :laugh: