Messianic Kingdom

[Pilgrimer]

// Why is it that in the premillennial world only the Jew who rejects Christ counts when you speak of the salvation of Israel? //


I haven't read very many premills but I didn't read anybody who said anything close to that.

And you won't see it expressed in such blunt terms either. But that is the bottom line.

Saved Jews are part of the Gentile Age Church. Messanic Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah, that God raised Him from the dead, and confess Jesus is Lord.

If Jews are part of the Church, then it cannot be a "Gentile" Age Church??? It's the Messianic (Christian) Age Church which includes both Jews and Gentiles. Indeed, the Jews are the very foundation stones that the church is built on! If you are a Gentile, this was spoken to you:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:19-22

The notion that "Israel" is not included in the "church" is simply not true. Israel according to the election of grace is the very foundation upon which the church is built, and not just New Testament Jews, but Old Testament Jews who lived and died in faith as well, they too are part of the "church." The 12 tribes are the "gates" through which Gentiles enter the New Covenant City, while the 12 Apostles are the 12 foundation stones of the New Covenant church, check it out in Revelation 21:12-13.

In the middle of the Tribulation Judgment Period (it is pre-millinnial) all Jews (and there will be a lot, individually must Accept Messiah Jesus as Saving Messiah.

The "Tribulation Judgment Period" was the 7-year period in which God judged the nation of Israel and brought to pass all those horrific curses that were ordained in the Law against Isarel if they ever broke covenant with God. And we know from reading the Old Testament that they did, time and time again, becoming so apostate that they actually stoned the prophets and wise men God sent to correct them! You can read about all these terrible curses in Deteronomy 28:15-68 in what is called the "Curse of the Law" or the "curses for disobedience." Those curses are the wellspring of all those prohecies throughout the writings of the Prophets where they basically elaborated upon what had been ordained in the Law. Even Moses spoke of this judgment that would "befall" the Jewish people "in the latter days" of the Old Covenant age when God would fulfill what was written in the Law and the Prophets, which is the very thing Jesus came into the world to do. But read what Moses foretold in the passage the old-timers call "The Song of Moses," in Deuteronomy 31:28-32:43. This prophecy told about that generation upon whom these curses would fall, and the 7-year period of war and destruction that came upon national Israel was the fulfillment, the time of Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation.

But you know what, it was in the days of that judgment, the days of the 1st Coming of Christ, that "a lot of Jews individually accepted Messiah Jesus as Saving Messiah." Granted, it was only a remnant of the whole Jewish nation, but that's precisely what the Scriptures foretold, that only a remnant would be saved:

"Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For the Lord will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth (quoting Isaiah 10:20-23). And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrha (quoting Isaiah 1:1-9)." Romans 9:27-29

In other words, if God had not cut short that work of judgment, there would have been no seed left, all the Jews would have been killed, or as Jesus put it, no flesh would have been saved. But for the "elects sake" (the small fledgling Jewish church) he cut short his terrible work of judgment.

Notice, please, what Isaiah taught about this judgment of Israel, this is very interesting, and helpful:

"For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land." Isaiah 10:16-23

This consumption* that was decreed that Isaiah was speaking of was the "end" of national Israel that was "decreed" in the Law, which God would bring to pass in the last days of the Old Covenant when the Messiah came to fuflill the Law and the Prophets, including this judgment of the Law against that nation who were under the Law . . . Israel.

*Consumption - Hebrew "Kalah" - a primary root word which has all these meanings . . .

"To end, to cease to be, be finished, perish, to complete, prepare, consume, accomplish, cease, consume (away), determine, destroy (utterly), be done, (be an) end (of), expire, (cause to) fail, faint, finish, fulfill, X fully, leave (off), long, bring to pass, wholly reap, make clean riddance, spend, quite take away, waste." Strongs Exhaustive Concordance

This consumption that was decreed in the Law against Israel (see Deuteronomy 28:22 and elsewhere in Scripture) is what Isaiah was speaking of, and which Paul quoted in his teaching about the savlation of Israel. And this is also what Daniel spoke of:

"And he shall comfirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Daniel 9:27

The confirmation to that first generation of Jewish Christians that God had established the New Covenant was God bringing the Old Covenant to an end exactly as it was foretold in the Law and in the Prophets. That "confirmed" the New Covenant in the eyes of the Jewish Christians.

Etc., etc., etc.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Ed Edwards]

If the Church has been removed there will be no believers on earth; who will preach to the Jews.?:tear:

...

Read Revelation 7, the scene right after the pretribulation rapture2 of the saints (church age saints, mostly gentile but some Messianic Jews). 144,000 Messianic Jews will be sent to the earth marked with God's protection to preach to the rest of the Jews (a lot more than 144,000).

Nobody seems to want to talk to me in the place where I'm proceeding logically from point A to point B. But there is sure a lot of useless missinformation that a-typical of God's Plan for the ages which has been shown IN THE BIBLES to human-kind.

See this topic:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6

 

[Amy.G]

Read Revelation 7, the scene right after the pretribulation rapture2 of the saints (church age saints, mostly gentile but some Messianic Jews). 144,000 Messianic Jews will be sent to the earth marked with God's protection to preach to the rest of the Jews (a lot more than 144,000).

Nobody seems to want to talk to me in the place where I'm proceeding logically from point A to point B. But there is sure a lot of useless missinformation that a-typical of God's Plan for the ages which has been shown IN THE BIBLES to human-kind.

See this topic:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6

Two questions.
What is "rapture 2"? Are there 2 pre-trib raptures?

144,000 messianic Jews sent to earth? Where are they sent from?

 

[Ed Edwards]

See this topic, your questions answered (or will be answered there):

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6


Amy.G: //Two questions.
What is "rapture 2"? Are there 2 pre-trib raptures? ///

That would be 'rapture2'. It is defined in the topic above.
I get criticized for being two complex; especially when I write clearer than the Bible does. But Back 40 years ago I was told that one way to distinguish between two sets called by the same name is to throw a number after them.

Here are some definitions of Bible terms (but the terms in the Bible may not be the same as we use now). Plus, there are at least two types of rapture and two types of resurrections that I like to talk about.

resurrection1 - a set of actions by Jesus: the raising of Dead people by and giving them new bodies
rapture1 - a set of actions like resurrection1 only with living people
(Best description of both found in 1 Cor 15)

resurrection2 - the set of post-tribulation events: a resurrection1 action followed by a rapture action
Best Description: Revelation 19 (end) and 20 (start) - similar to 2 sets of actions called 'the first resurrection'

rapture2 - the set of pre-tribulation events: a resurrection1 action followed by a rapture action
Best description: 1 Thess 4:13 to 1 Thess 5:11 (the clearest proof of the pre-tribulation rapture2 in the Bible)

Amy.G: // Two questions. ...144,000 messianic Jews sent to earth? Where are they sent from? //

I rephrase this:
Read Revelation 7, the scene right after the pre-tribulation rapture2
to read this:
Read Revelation 7, the scene IN HEAVEN right after the pre-tribulation rapture2

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Your describe of 'Rapture2' is complex.

The Bible teaching us very clear that first there will be resurrection to be happening before our caught up according to 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Our caught up cannot be occur yet first till after the resurrection to be happen first.

In John 6:39,40,44, and 54 telling us, the resurrection will be occur on last day, not supppose 2,632 days(7 years) later after "pretrib rapture" as gap time. Pretrib is not a biblical.

Bible teaching us that, the resurrection will be follow at the coming of the Lord same time. Clearly, the resurrection will be occur at the second advent same time. Therefore, it is obivious posttrib resurrection.

And Apostle Paul doesn't saying that our caught up will be seven years earlier prior before His "coming".

You need a solid clear proof verse in the Bible that our caught up will be occur 7 years earlier prior his "coming".

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Amy.G]

See this topic, your questions answered (or will be answered there):

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6


Amy.G: //Two questions.
What is "rapture 2"? Are there 2 pre-trib raptures? ///

That would be 'rapture2'. It is defined in the topic above.
I get criticized for being two complex; especially when I write clearer than the Bible does. But Back 40 years ago I was told that one way to distinguish between two sets called by the same name is to throw a number after them.

Here are some definitions of Bible terms (but the terms in the Bible may not be the same as we use now). Plus, there are at least two types of rapture and two types of resurrections that I like to talk about.

resurrection1 - a set of actions by Jesus: the raising of Dead people by and giving them new bodies
rapture1 - a set of actions like resurrection1 only with living people
(Best description of both found in 1 Cor 15)

resurrection2 - the set of post-tribulation events: a resurrection1 action followed by a rapture action
Best Description: Revelation 19 (end) and 20 (start) - similar to 2 sets of actions called 'the first resurrection'

rapture2 - the set of pre-tribulation events: a resurrection1 action followed by a rapture action
Best description: 1 Thess 4:13 to 1 Thess 5:11 (the clearest proof of the pre-tribulation rapture2 in the Bible)

Amy.G: // Two questions. ...144,000 messianic Jews sent to earth? Where are they sent from? //

I rephrase this:
Read Revelation 7, the scene right after the pre-tribulation rapture2
to read this:
Read Revelation 7, the scene IN HEAVEN right after the pre-tribulation rapture2

Clear as mud.

Would you mind trying again for the sake of us dummies?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed,

Your describe of 'Rapture2' is complex.

The Bible teaching us very clear that first there will be resurrection to be happening before our caught up according to 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Our caught up cannot be occur yet first till after the resurrection to be happen first.

In John 6:39,40,44, and 54 telling us, the resurrection will be occur on last day, not supppose 2,632 days(7 years) later after "pretrib rapture" as gap time. Pretrib is not a biblical.

Bible teaching us that, the resurrection will be follow at the coming of the Lord same time. Clearly, the resurrection will be occur at the second advent same time. Therefore, it is obivious posttrib resurrection.

And Apostle Paul doesn't saying that our caught up will be seven years earlier prior before His "coming".

You need a solid clear proof verse in the Bible that our caught up will be occur 7 years earlier prior his "coming".

In Christ

Yes, it is easy to pick apart the pieces of my eschatology. Nobody wants to go to here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6

and read my whole eschatology, it all hangs together, but people want to argue the pieces. I'd lot rather discuss the whole eschatology here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6

then fight for the pieces here. So I boycott this topic.

 

[OldRegular]

Read Revelation 7, the scene right after the pretribulation rapture2 of the saints (church age saints, mostly gentile but some Messianic Jews). 144,000 Messianic Jews will be sent to the earth marked with God's protection to preach to the rest of the Jews (a lot more than 144,000).

Revelation 7 states nothing about 144,000 Messianic Jews being sent to the earth.

 

[OldRegular]

Saved Jews are part of the Gentile Age Church. Messanic Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah, that God raised Him from the dead, and confess Jesus is Lord.

I don't understand. Is a Messianic Jew saved? If he is saved he is part of the Gentile Age Church.

See my above post #148.

 

[Me4Him]

See this topic, your questions answered (or will be answered there):

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6


Amy.G: //Two questions.
What is "rapture 2"? Are there 2 pre-trib raptures? ///

That would be 'rapture2'. It is defined in the topic above.
I get criticized for being two complex; especially when I write clearer than the Bible does. But Back 40 years ago I was told that one way to distinguish between two sets called by the same name is to throw a number after them.

Here are some definitions of Bible terms (but the terms in the Bible may not be the same as we use now). Plus, there are at least two types of rapture and two types of resurrections that I like to talk about.

resurrection1 - a set of actions by Jesus: the raising of Dead people by and giving them new bodies
rapture1 - a set of actions like resurrection1 only with living people
(Best description of both found in 1 Cor 15)

resurrection2 - the set of post-tribulation events: a resurrection1 action followed by a rapture action
Best Description: Revelation 19 (end) and 20 (start) - similar to 2 sets of actions called 'the first resurrection'

rapture2 - the set of pre-tribulation events: a resurrection1 action followed by a rapture action
Best description: 1 Thess 4:13 to 1 Thess 5:11 (the clearest proof of the pre-tribulation rapture2 in the Bible)

Amy.G: // Two questions. ...144,000 messianic Jews sent to earth? Where are they sent from? //

I rephrase this:
Read Revelation 7, the scene right after the pre-tribulation rapture2
to read this:
Read Revelation 7, the scene IN HEAVEN right after the pre-tribulation rapture2

I've experienced the same problem you're describing here, but I think I can solve the probelm.

Every place the word "Resurrection" is used in scripture, they are "BACK ON EARTH", ALIVE", and seen by people.

In a "Rapture", people "LEAVE THE EARTH".

In the rapture, people come out of the grave/meet Jesus in the air and return to heaven, they are not back on the earth, nor seen by people. (twinkling of an eye)

When Jesus returns with the saints, every eyes sees him and this is called the "FIRST" resurrection,

so why isn't the Rapture, 7 years prior, called the "FIRST" Resurrection??

We've all heard the rapture refer to as a "resurrection", but "TECHNICALLY" it's wrong,

it's a "Rapture", people leaving the earth,

not the "FIRST" RESURRECTION", their returning.

Folks failing to understand this difference in Rapture/Resurrection, as you know, leads to confusion.

 

[OldRegular]

I've experienced the same problem you're describing here, but I think I can solve the probelm.

Every place the word "Resurrection" is used in scripture, they are "BACK ON EARTH", ALIVE", and seen by people.

In a "Rapture", people "LEAVE THE EARTH".

In the rapture, people come out of the grave/meet Jesus in the air and return to heaven, they are not back on the earth, nor seen by people. (twinkling of an eye)

When Jesus returns with the saints, every eyes sees him and this is called the "FIRST" resurrection,

so why isn't the Rapture, 7 years prior, called the "FIRST" Resurrection??

We've all heard the rapture refer to as a "resurrection", but "TECHNICALLY" it's wrong,

it's a "Rapture", people leaving the earth,

not the "FIRST" RESURRECTION", their returning.

Folks failing to understand this difference in Rapture/Resurrection, as you know, leads to confusion.

As Amy would say: "clear as mud". You have added to the confusion me4Him. To begin there has been only one resurrection todate, that of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23. That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The Apostle Paul tells us [briefly] in Philippians 3:20,21 what the resurrection body will be like.

20. For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We learn more from 1 Corinthians 15:42-46; 49-54

42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Now what happens at the so called rapture?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is a partial description of the general resurrection. Notice this is no secret rapture as shown in verse 16. This is consistent with the description of the return of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:30, 31 and Revelation 11:15. It is also consistent with the Apostle Paul's description of what takes place at the resurrection in Corinthians and Philippians. Notice that Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 that those who are living must be changed since corruption cannot inherit incorruption. In Philippians he states: we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body

This same change must take place in the events described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Jesus Christ brings with Him the souls of the deceased Saints, their bodies are resurrected and join the souls that Jesus Christ brings with Him. Then those which are alive are changed as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians and also join Jesus christ in the air from which they will return to earth.

There is no rapture 1 or rapture 2. There is a First Resurrection, that of Jesus Christ, and a second Resurrection described in John 5:28, 29 and 1 Corinthians 15. It is important to notice that in the description of the return of Jesus Christ as recorded in Matthew 24; 1 Thessalonians 4; 1 Corinthians 15; and Revelation 11; a trumpet sounds. In the passages from Corinthians and Revelation it is described as the last or seventh trumpet. Also note that in the passages from Thessalonians and Corinthians the change takes place in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[OldRegular]

I don't understand. Is a Messianic Jew saved? If he is saved he is part of the Gentile Age Church.

See my above post #148.

I am still waiting to hear where those 144,000 Messianic Jews came from and whether they are saved and therefore part of the Church. I expect Amy is also.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

Yes, it is easy to pick apart the pieces of my eschatology. Nobody wants to go to here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6

and read my whole eschatology, it all hangs together, but people want to argue the pieces. I'd lot rather discuss the whole eschatology here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6

then fight for the pieces here. So I boycott this topic.

Which part of "I boycott this topic" are you having trouble with?
I gave you a forwarding address. That is all I'm going to do.
I am NOT allowed to post the same post in two places - it is against the rules on BB (Baptist Board).

 

[Ed Edwards]

A response to post 151 above (first post, if you use regular pagination) is made here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1336193&posted=1#post1336192

Hope the pretribulation rapture2 and the three Kingdoms of God encourage one and all to lead a pure and dedicated to Messiah.

 

[Amy.G]

Well, I'm still trying to decipher the 2 raptures. I can't find that darn decoder ring! :laugh:

I don't know why you are boycotting this thread, Ed. Seems like we could talk here just as easily as the other thread, but whatever.

 

[Me4Him]

As Amy would say: "clear as mud". You have added to the confusion me4Him. To begin there has been only one resurrection todate, that of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

Lazarus wasn't "Resurrected"???, (among others)

Now what happens at the so called rapture?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is a partial description of the general resurrection. Notice this is no secret rapture as shown in verse 16. This is consistent with the description of the return of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:30, 31 and Revelation 11:15. It is also consistent with the Apostle Paul's description of what takes place at the resurrection in Corinthians and Philippians. Notice that Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 that those who are living must be changed since corruption cannot inherit incorruption. In Philippians he states: we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body

"Mercy" :laugh: There are so many reasons for the pre trib rapture, I don't know where to start.

Jesus said the gates of hell couldn't prevail against church saints and when we resist Satan he will flee.

And the reason being is because the "COMFORTER" in us is greater than Satan.

During the trib, Satan doesn't flee, but attacks believers and prevails against them, so where is the "COMFORTER" during all of this, asleep???

The comforter must be "taken out of the way" before the trib starts, the "LAST TRUMP" of his voice will rapture the church and then that wicked will be revealed.

This same change must take place in the events described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Jesus Christ brings with Him the souls of the deceased Saints, their bodies are resurrected and join the souls that Jesus Christ brings with Him. Then those which are alive are changed as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians and also join Jesus christ in the air from which they will return to earth.

If you'll read the bible you won't find one single person resurrected from the grave when Jesus returns, not one.

The OT saints Jesus took to heaven when he ascended, the rapture church, those killed during the trib and under the altar are "ALL IN HEAVEN", there are no righteous souls still in the grave when Jesus returns, all deceased righteous return "WITH JESUS".

Only the "LIVING" Wheat/Tares remain on/in the earth when Jesus returns.

The unsaved dead stay dead, the living tares are cast into hell with them to remain there until the 1000 years are over,

Only at the GWT does hell give up the dead in it.

There is no rapture 1 or rapture 2. There is a First Resurrection, that of Jesus Christ, and a second Resurrection described in John 5:28, 29 and 1 Corinthians 15. It is important to notice that in the description of the return of Jesus Christ as recorded in Matthew 24; 1 Thessalonians 4; 1 Corinthians 15; and Revelation 11; a trumpet sounds. In the passages from Corinthians and Revelation it is described as the last or seventh trumpet. Also note that in the passages from Thessalonians and Corinthians the change takes place in the twinkling of an eye.

Jesus reaps the living/dead righteous in the rapture, they leave the earth.

When Jesus returns, Angels separate the living Wheat/Tares, casting the tares into hell, the "Wheat" remains on earth to repopulate it during the MK, those in the resurrection (returning with Jesus) don't marry/produce children.

I'd suggest you pay attention to these "minor details". :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Well, I'm still trying to decipher the 2 raptures. I can't find that darn decoder ring! :laugh:

I don't know why you are boycotting this thread, Ed. Seems like we could talk here just as easily as the other thread, but whatever.

Because 'over there' I am logically starting and logically proceeding to my Eschatology (which is scriptural, Biblical, and logical). Over here folks are content to illogically attack my conclusions and not my definitions, not my axioms, not my logic (all of which are scriptural, Biblical, and logical). This just isn't a level playing field and the field advantage is Marxist, Calvinistic, Liberal, and (several words which cannot be said on the board to maintain the family nature of the board).

my 'precise' is damned as complex
my 'logic' is damned as un-Biblical
my 'explinations' are damned as un-readable

No, I'll be posting over here most of the time:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
As Amy would say: "clear as mud". You have added to the confusion me4Him. To begin there has been only one resurrection todate, that of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23. That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The Apostle Paul tells us [briefly] in Philippians 3:20,21 what the resurrection body will be like.

20. For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We learn more from 1 Corinthians 15:42-46; 49-54

42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

response from me4Him
Lazarus wasn't "Resurrected"???, (among others)

NO! Lazarus was not resurrected. Did he have abody like that of the glorious body of Jesus Christ; was he able to pass through walls? NO! The resurrected body does not die again; Lazarus did. Note what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57.

51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul is clearly teaching that, through Jesus Christ, the believer, both soul and resurrected body, have conquered death.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Now what happens at the so called rapture?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is a partial description of the general resurrection. Notice this is no secret rapture as shown in verse 16. This is consistent with the description of the return of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:30, 31 and Revelation 11:15. It is also consistent with the Apostle Paul's description of what takes place at the resurrection in Corinthians and Philippians. Notice that Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 that those who are living must be changed since corruption cannot inherit incorruption. In Philippians he states: we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body

response from me4Him
"Mercy" There are so many reasons for the pre trib rapture, I don't know where to start.

Jesus said the gates of hell couldn't prevail against church saints and when we resist Satan he will flee.

And the reason being is because the "COMFORTER" in us is greater than Satan.

During the trib, Satan doesn't flee, but attacks believers and prevails against them, so where is the "COMFORTER" during all of this, asleep???

The comforter must be "taken out of the way" before the trib starts, the "LAST TRUMP" of his voice will rapture the church and then that wicked will be revealed.

Scripture states that the gates of hell could not prevail against the Church. It never teaches that the Saint will not undergo tribulation, in fact just the opposite.

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

There is not a single passage of Scripture that speaks of the “so-called rapture”; just as there is not a single verse of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offers a Messianic Kingdom to the Jews. If so then post them!

Originally Posted by OldRegular
This same change must take place in the events described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Jesus Christ brings with Him the souls of the deceased Saints, their bodies are resurrected and join the souls that Jesus Christ brings with Him. Then those which are alive are changed as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians and also join Jesus christ in the air from which they will return to earth.

response from me4Him
If you'll read the bible you won't find one single person resurrected from the grave when Jesus returns, not one.

The resurrected Saints will meet Him in the air, as shown in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 above and then return to earth with Him. The unredeemed will be resurrected and all will appear before Jesus Christ at the White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11-15].

response from me4Him
The OT saints Jesus took to heaven when he ascended, the rapture church, those killed during the trib and under the altar are "ALL IN HEAVEN", there are no righteous souls still in the grave when Jesus returns, all deceased righteous return "WITH JESUS".

Can you back any of the above up with Scripture? NO!. This is fiction created by some dispensationalist.

response from me4Him
Only the "LIVING" Wheat/Tares remain on/in the earth when Jesus returns.

I am not sure how "LIVING" Wheat/Tares remain in the earth, but fiction can do remarkable things. Certainly when Jesus Christ returns as described in Thessalonians and Corinthians above He will find believers and unbelievers. And as Paul noted in 1 Corinthians and Philippians above the Saints will take on a glorified body like unto the glorious body of Jesus Christ. Scripture does not say anything about the bodies of the unbeliever other that body and soul they will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

response from me4Him
The unsaved dead stay dead, the living tares are cast into hell with them to remain there until the 1000 years are over,

Only at the GWT does hell give up the dead in it.

We are currently in the millennial reign awaiting the return of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
There is no rapture 1 or rapture 2. There is a First Resurrection, that of Jesus Christ, and a second Resurrection described in John 5:28, 29 and 1 Corinthians 15. It is important to notice that in the description of the return of Jesus Christ as recorded in Matthew 24; 1 Thessalonians 4; 1 Corinthians 15; and Revelation 11; a trumpet sounds. In the passages from Corinthians and Revelation it is described as the last or seventh trumpet. Also note that in the passages from Thessalonians and Corinthians the change takes place in the twinkling of an eye.

response from me4Him
Jesus reaps the living/dead righteous in the rapture, they leave the earth.

When Jesus returns, Angels separate the living Wheat/Tares, casting the tares into hell, the "Wheat" remains on earth to repopulate it during the MK, those in the resurrection (returning with Jesus) don't marry/produce children.

I'd suggest you pay attention to these "minor details".

Will you please post some Scripture that prove the removal of the Church from the earth for some period of time, referred to by dispensationalists as the “so-called rapture”.

 

[Me4Him]

Will you please post some Scripture that prove the removal of the Church from the earth for some period of time, referred to by dispensationalists as the “so-called rapture”.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:


and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Where does this verse fit into scripture and what does it describe???

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4HIM,

Daniel 9:27 have do nothing with Antichrist. This verse is context with verse 24 to 26 focus on Messiah-Jesus Christ, and Jerusalem.

70 weeks means 7X70=490 years. Daniel was taken into capitvity under Babylon. While he was capitivity, he received vision from the angel. He wrote that passage of prophecy about the coming Mesisah that he will make new covenant with many by Calvary. The walls and temple of Jerusalem shall be rebuilt as verse 25-26 predicted. It fulfilled by during Ezra and Nehemiah's time. Walls and temple were rebuilt in Jerusalem. Because they were prepared for the coming Messiah-Jesus Christ.

Verse 26 tells us, Messiah was cut off in the midst of the week by Calvary.

Verse 27 tells us, the same person-Messiah makes new covenant with many as it fulfilled in Matt. 26:28, which speaks of Christ's blood-Calvary.

Christ made covenant with many during in the midst of the week, then he ended daily sacrifices by torn down the veil of temple (Matt. 27:51), it shows that God is finished with daily sacrifices. God doesn't need them anymore. Only through Christ's own perfect blood -Calvary. Also, the temple was later destroyed by Rone in 70 A.D. Christ did actual destroyed that building (John 2:19). Christ doesn't need that building anymore. Because he is our temple.

Christ fulfilled Dan. 9:26-27.

Daniel 9:26-27 have do nothing with supposed future seven year of Tribulation period. This passage focus on Jesus Christ and Calvary.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!