Millennial Questions

[Brother Bob]

Rev 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Who is the Bride??


Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.


So it seems the children will be the bride and the City of New Jerusalem. I can show you scripture where the foundation is the twelve apostles and the twelve gates are the twelve tribes of Israel and the City is the Bride of the Lamb, which is the believers. Anyone looking to spend eternity over in what is now Jerusalem, is in for a dissappointment.

 

[webdog]

Anyone looking to spend eternity over in what is now Jerusalem, is in for a dissappointment.

I'm looking forward to it

I would suggest reading Heaven by Randy Alcorn. I, too, used to think this earth would be completely destroyed...BUT, that would be an admission by God that His creation was a mistake, and He has no power over sin, since sin is what tainted it. We were created for this planet, and for Him. He will see to it that both are fulfilled to the utmost.

 

[Brother Bob]

I would suggest reading Heaven by Randy Alcorn. I, too, used to think this earth would be completely destroyed...BUT, that would be an admission by God that His creation was a mistake, and He has no power over sin, since sin is what tainted it. We were created for this planet, and for Him. He will see to it that both are fulfilled to the utmost.

Well, He must of already admitted it then!!!

Gen 6:7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Anyway, He will not need this earth anymore for we will be in Heaven, where God is.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
Isaiah 11:11,12 do not say, "one thousand years" in that passage.

Isa 11:11-12 (KJV1611 Edition):
And it shall come to passe in that day,
that the Lord shall set his hande againe
the second time, to recouer the remnant of his people
which shalbe left, from Assyria, and from Egypt,
& from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam,
and from Shinar, and from Hamath,
and from the ylands of the Sea.
12 And he shall set vp an ensigne for the nations,
and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather together the dispersed of Iudah,
from the foure corners of the earth.

Very astute - it does not talk about 1,000 years.
Does not matter though - it does talk about
things that have not happened yet even for us.
I also note (just to show it doesn't matter) that
the Isaiah 11:11-12 passages does not show the
necessity of repentance for Jesus to save you.
But if one sinned before one gets saved by Jesus,
I highly recommend that one repent.

Not every passage has to have every detail
of what is going on. This passage is something
that will happen after the Jewish/Israeli came back
from the Babylonian captivity - From like about
the time that Jesus was born, the Jews were being
scattered abroad. They did not start gathering
back together until after 1/3 of them where killed
by Christian Germans posing as
Christians. That is why I don't use the terms 'Christian'
& 'Christ' very often for they are
curse words to my Jewish friends.

2 Timothy 2:1-4,
...
do not say, "one thousand years" in that passage.

I believe you may be speaking of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and [(totally different set of events)]
by our gathering together vnto him,
2 That yee bee not soone shaken in minde,
or bee troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word,
nor by letter, as from vs, as that the day of Christ
is at hand,
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes,
for that day shall not come, except there
come a falling away first[(this is the rapture2)], and
that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himselfe
aboue all that is called God, or that is worshipped:
so that he as God, sitteth in the Temple of God,
shewing himselfe that he is God.

Very astute - it does not talk about 1,000 years.
Does not matter though - it does talk about
things that have not happened yet even for us.
I also note (just to show it doesn't matter) that
the Isaiah 11:11-12 passages does not show the
necessity of repentance for Jesus to save you.
But if one sinned before one gets saved by Jesus,
I highly recommend that one repent.

In no wise would I equate the Millennial
Messianic Kingdom of Jesus with this time
of rule for the 'man of sin'. I note that
'Antichrist' isn't mentioned here - but it
seems safe to equate the term 'Antichrist'
with the attribute 'man of sin'.

Ezekiel 36:28,29; 39:28 did not say, "a thousand years"

Eze 36:28-29 ... 39:28 (KJV1611 Edition):
And ye shall dwel in the land that I gaue
to your fathers, and ye shall be my people,
and I wil be your God.
29 I wil also saue you from all your
vncleannesses, and I will call for the corne,
and will increase it, and lay no famine vpon you.
...
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am
the Lord their God, which caused them
to be led into captiuitie among the heathen:
but I haue gathered them vnto their owne land,
and haue left none of them any more there.

Very astute - it does not talk about 1,000 years.
Does not matter though - it does talk about
things that have not happened yet even for us.
I also note (just to show it doesn't matter) that
the Isaiah 11:11-12 passages does not show the
necessity of repentance for Jesus to save you.
But if one sinned before one gets saved by Jesus,
I highly recommend that one repent.

I see no problem equating this with the Millennial
Messanic Kingdom ruled over by Messiah
Yeshua ben Yoseph of Nazereth.

You cannot prove them which do not
mentioned "one thousand years".

One can prove a lot about verses that don't specifically
mention the 1,000 year length of the Messianic Earthly
Kingdom of Jesus.

When does the Messanic Kingdom Start?
Some verses say the the Messanic Kingdom
will start right after Jesus comes back
in His two prong Second Advent (AKA: Second
Coming).

When does the Messanic Kingdom End?
before the new heavens & new earth.

All that we don't know for sure is if
the 1,000 years is literal/physical or
a metaphor for A LONG TIME.
That is a matter of opinion, for the
Bible doesn't address it directly.
I believe it is a physical/literal 1,000 years
(Give or take a power of ten - I.E.
somewhere between 100 and 10,000 and
I'll still say /after it happens/ that it
was 1,000 years, just like I thought.

I have no problem with people who count
the 1,000 year length of the Earthly Messanic
Kingdom as figurative. But you can't go around
making everything spiritual with out looking like
a Spiritualist.

 

[webdog]

Well, He must of already admitted it then!!!

Gen 6:7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Anyway, He will not need this earth anymore for we will be in Heaven, where God is.

You are going to be in for a pleasant surprise, BBob :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks Web; that son of yours is growing. I bet you are one proud dad?

BBob,

 

[webdog]

Thanks Web; that son of yours is growing. I bet you are one proud dad?

BBob,

If you think he's growing, you should see my wife's stomach :laugh:
(I shouldn't laugh, mine is growing right along with her...can't allow here to have all the good cravings, you know.)

 

[skypair]

Bob, DPT,

I'm not sure where y'all are coming from but it's not from the Bible. Psa 2:6-9 tells us God's plan for the MK following Armageddon. "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."

Dan 7:13-14, ditto. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him:..."

You know, I hate to give you too many at once but you're just ripping out scriptures that you don't like here and making a liar out of God.

And it is obvious you don't have the full picture. Rapture - tribulation - resurrection of OT saints - MK - rapture of saints of earth - earth reformed - eternal kingdom (this is the one that never ends with NJ coming down from heaven).

Besides denying that Christ will have an earthly MK, you are denying the 70th week of Daniel, the tribulation DOTL. Together, these fulfill all the OT covenants! And I don't see the reformation of the earth in your schema, either.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Besides denying that Christ will have an earthly MK, you are denying the 70th week of Daniel, the tribulation DOTL. Together, these fulfill all the OT covenants! And I don't see the reformation of the earth in your schema, either.

skypair

Jesus didn't see it either, or at least did not feel it was of importance so as to tell us.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Jesus didn't see it either, or at least did not feel it was of importance so as to tell us.

BBob -- what do you think Mt 25:13-46 is all about? In what kingdom will the ones who made 5 and 10 talents be given the 2?? What kingdom will those on His right, the sheep, inherit?

Look at Mt 24:45-51 -- in what kingdom will the "faithful servant ... rule over all His goods?"

Are you just not much into eschatology, BBob??

skypair

 

[DeafPosttrib]

skypair,

Psalms 2:6-9 didn't say of 'a thousand years'.

This passage speaks of second advent clearly.

verse 6 is speak of New Jerusalem - "Zion". How do I know? In Heb. 12:22 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, 'the heavenly Jerusalem', and to an innumerable company of angels."

Psalms 2:6 is not speak of modern Jerusalem -earthly city. It speaks of heavely city where God dwells. It is a holy.

Also, in Rev. 14:1 says: "And I looked, an, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

This verse is speak of Jesus Christ stands on holy place - New Jerusalem, not modern Jerusalem(earthly city). the 144,000 people are gathering together to Christ. That group is represent of redeemed from the world(Rev. 14:3) means faithful saints, not only Jews, also, Gentiles too. The number of 144,000 is symbolic spiritual. It represents completed perfection in them. It could be millions, and millions of saints shall be redeemed from the world(unsaved), not only limited to the specific numbered of exactly 144,000, but multitude of saints over the world(it described in Rev. 7:9-17) shall be delivered-rapture at second advent.

Psalms 2:6 speaks of God shall exalted Christ as King sit on the throne at the right hand of God the Father, which is in New Jerusalem. It already fulfilled at resurrection in Phil. 2:9-11.

Psalams 2:7 tells us, that God shall declare to the world that Christ is His Son, that He sent him to earth at first advent for salvation by died on the cross.

Psalms 2:8 is speak of God saying toward His son- Jesus, that He shall given him the nations as He given the authority to Christ to rule over the world.

Verse 8 fulfilled at first advent after resurrection. That Christ was given authority from His Father, that He was already exalted became King sitting on the throne on the right hand of God the Father in the heaven.

Verse 9 is not speaking of millennial (literal exactly 1000 years) kingdom. It speaks of God gives the power to Christ to rule over the nations. It already fulfilled at Christ's resurrection.

By the way, yes I believe when Christ shall come again in power and glory. He will judge all nations in visibly and physical. All amills believe it same as premills do.

Psa. 2:6-9 do not saying, 'a thousand years'. This passage talking about the prophecy of Jesus Christ shall be exalted and be given authority to rule over the world. It already fulfilled at first advent.

Look, many of us seem are confusion or being misunderstanding on many passages iof prophecy in the Old Testament seem speak of second advent. But, many of these are toward first advent, which are speak of Calvary and resurrection, and of course, Jesus Christ.

Daniel 7:13-14 do not saying, of 'a thousand years'. Also, this passage seems speak of second advent as what many pretrib premills intepreting it. But, many amills understand this passage is speaking of first advent that Christ shall be exalted and sit on the right hand of God the Father in heaven. He already bring the kingdom to earth. Itself, is not physical or observation, but, it is spiritual from above. And also, Christ's reigning is an everlasting. It doesn't saying that His reign will be limited for only one thousand years. Christ already given the power to his people to serve him. Whose are the 'people'? Dan. 7:22 answers, Christ given the power to the SAINTS(Christians) to reigning the kingdom. It was already fulfilled at Pentacost Day, when God sent the Holy Spirit pour upon the Christians of Acts 2, that they received the power to spreading the gospel over the world.

The Church is now reigning with Christ. The kingdom is already present on earth since Christ brought it at his first advent.

Daniel 7:13-14, 22 are beautiful fit with Rev. 20:4-6 that, the Church is now reigning with Christ for nearly 2,000 years since His resurrection.

The church is not only reigning with Christ in heaven, also, Church is now reigning with Christ on earth as they are continue spreading the gospel over the world today.

The kingdom is all about the gospel, not worldly government or political as what premillennialism teaching. They teaching, "kingdom" will be the world governemt, as it running come from the world's capitol or headquarter, which is in modern Jersualem during future supposed millennial kingdom.

But, not what the Bible actual teaching.

Remember, when the Pharisees came to Christ, they asked him, when the kingdom shall be set? He told them, itself is not come with the observation, it is spiritual come from above, which is within them.

Christ already bring kingdom from heaven 2000 years ago. Church already received the kingdom from Christ on Pentacost day. Prior Calvary, the kingdom was not present on earth. Because, all nations were deceived by Satan. They were stranger to Israel, and they were aliens, and were separated from the commonwealth of Israel. But, NOW, Gentiles are join with Jews became one unity by calvary. The gospel was finally bring the light to the world, so, now many nations are know the gospel of the kingdom, because the gospel is spreading since Pentacost Day.

Now, the Church is reigning with Christ, Church is now sitting with Christ, and are given them to judgment (Eph. 2:5-6).

That what the scene of Rev. 20:4-6 is all talking about.

Rev. 20:4-6 is already happening since Calvary and his resurrection. Because, Satan was defeated at Calvary. Satan have no power to deceive the nations, because the Church already have the power("key" of Rev. 20:1) for spread the gospel of the kingdom over the world. Also, many of saints' souls are now in the heaven after they died during Church history, because they already overcame the world by their faith. They are now reigning with Christ in heaven. That what Rev. 20:4-6 is all talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob -- what do you think Mt 25:13-46 is all about? In what kingdom will the ones who made 5 and 10 talents be given the 2?? What kingdom will those on His right, the sheep, inherit?

Look at Mt 24:45-51 -- in what kingdom will the "faithful servant ... rule over all His goods?"

Are you just not much into eschatology, BBob??

skypair

Not to the point you all are. As far as the Kingdom, I believe it will be the same Kingdom that is within you now and in the resurrection, it will be both soul and body. I believe its still talking about the same Kingdom.

I really take the stance that Calvin and Wesley and others took. It is a spiritual thing and most is taking place now.

I guess I shouldn't get into these eschatology discussions, for I believe it will be a very short work the Lord will do when He comes.

Maybe I should be as John Wesley and not claim to have an eschatology.

John Wesley does not have an eschatology, when one considers such a subject in the light of the results of systematic theology. Actually, the word "eschatology" is of nineteenth century origin. However, Wesley does emphasize those subjects usually connected with a serious consideration of eschatology, i.e. death, the intermediate state of the soul, the resurrection, the second coming of Christ, the judgment, the end of the world, heaven, and hell.


BBob,

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Skypair,

Brother Bob, amills, and I do not deny Daniel 70 Weeks, future tribulation, second coming, Christ shall reign on earth.

Daniel 70 Week of Dan. 9:24-27 is not talking about future so called, 'seven year of Tribulation period'. Daniel 9:24-27 talking about the prophecy of Messiah will be crucified and ended the daily sacrifices at the first advent. It already fulfilled 490 years later after Daniel was penned.

There are many tribulations throughout Church history. Some were great, some were small. Many(partial preterists, full preterists) believe great tribulation was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Probably, they are right, because of the history told us so. For me, I believe we will face greater persecutions yet to come when after Satan shall be revealed as after he shall be loosed out of the midst(2 Thess. 2:6-10; Rev. 20:7-9).

Matt. 25:13-46 say nothing of "one thousand years" in this context or passage.

Matt. 25:1-13 speak of virgins that, it motivates us that, we ought always be watch and ready for his coming, or, if we do not watch, then we might be thrown away.

Matt. 25:14-30 talking about Christians shall face the judgment day for their works. Some shall received reward and have eternal life to enter into everlasting kingdom(in New Jerusalem, and on new earth). But, some shall not receive reward and everlasting life, shall be cast away into everlasting fire(Matt. 25:30).

Matt. 25:31-46 talking about second advent, all nations shall be gathering together, to divided nations into two classes- believers and unbelievers. Many unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting fire. Many believers shall enter into eternal life- Matt. 25:46.

Also, Matthew 25:31-46 is probably the clearest passage or secene of the Bible, speak of posttribulational coming, ONE judgment day.

The scene of Matt. 25:31-46 is talking about great white throne or judgment day follow at the second advent.

None of context in Matthew chapter 25 saying of "one thousand years".

Throughout in the four gospels, Christ never, never mentioned of "one thousand years". Obivously, he doesn't teaching premill doctrine while he was on earth 2000 years ago.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

This is the Westminster Confession of Faith and describes my belief closely, but not exact.

CHAPTER 32
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead

1. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
2. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.
3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor: the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, unto honor; and be made conformable to his own glorious body.


CHAPTER 33
Of the Last Judgment

1. God hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father. In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged, but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.
2. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of his mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of his justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity: so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.

 

[skypair]

As far as the Kingdom, I believe it will be the same Kingdom that is within you now and in the resurrection, it will be both soul and body. I believe its still talking about the same Kingdom.

Today we have a spiritual kingdom but not physical. There will be 2 spiritual and physical kingdoms to come: 1) Christ's theocracy, which will be much like Adam's day (God was present with Adam yet sin and death were possible); and 2) God's, which will be eternal, perfect, no corruption at all.

So, multiple choice -- which do we live in? A) spiritual kingdom absent the King or B) phsyical theocracy of Messiah or C) God's kingdom "face to face."

skypair

 

[skypair]

BBob,

Per "The Last Judgment:"

Consider 2Pet "a 1000 years is as a day with the Lord." The rapture to the GWT is 1000 years. In "that day," judgment will be upon the church, earth, angels, Israel, and the lost. Then follows the perfect, eternal kingdom of God.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

So, multiple choice -- which do we live in? A) spiritual kingdom absent the King or B) phsyical theocracy of Messiah or C) God's kingdom "face to face."

skypair

Are you saying the Lord is not your King now??



The best synopsis of Wesley's theology of the Kingdom may be one of his sermons on The Lord's Prayer:

In order that the name of God may be hallowed, we pray that His kingdom, the kingdom of Christ, may come. This kingdom then comes to a particular person, when he "repents and believes the gospel"; when he is taught of God, not only to know himself, but to know Jesus Christ and Him crucified. As "this is the life eternal, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent"; so it is the kingdom of God begun below, set up in the believer's heart; "the Lord God Omnipotent then 'reigneth,' " when He is known through Christ Jesus. He taketh unto Himself His mighty power, that He may subdue all things unto Himself. He goeth on in the soul conquering and to conquer, till He hath put all things under His feet, till "every thought is brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ."


​

Did all of the old brethren have the Kingdom of God and eschatology wrong until the ninetenth century??

 

[skypair]

Are you saying the Lord is not your King now??

Read the options again before asking to silly questions. If here and now is His physical kingdom, where is He. He's in heaven, right? Seated at the right hand of God.

He's coming again to reign over the whole earth for 1000 years on "His holy mountain." Right now He is only the King over you and me and a handful of others per every 10,000 inhabitants of the earth.

Did all of the old brethren have the Kingdom of God and eschatology wrong until the ninetenth century??

Oh, are you insinuating that the Roman Catholic Church had it right after all? Again, why do you posit silly questions? The Bible (Rev 20) has spoken of it since 90 AD. Blame who you will that no one believed it, it was there all the time.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Are you saying the Lord is not your King now??
Read the options again before asking to silly questions. If here and now is His physical kingdom, where is He. He's in heaven, right? Seated at the right hand of God.

He's coming again to reign over the whole earth for 1000 years on "His holy mountain." Right now He is only the King over you and me and a handful of others per every 10,000 inhabitants of the earth.

Why is the truth silly to you??? Its a number that no man can number, according to scripture. Jesus said at this time His Kingdom did not come by observation, but is within us. As I research all the early brethren they did not speak of several Kingdoms, Just you and those who started it in the ninetenth century. Why should I agree with you when I don't?? He can be where ever He wants to be. He is in Heaven beside the Father, but He is my King, and the government of the church is upon His shoulders.

Oh, are you insinuating that the Roman Catholic Church had it right after all? Again, why do you posit silly questions? The Bible (Rev 20) has spoken of it since 90 AD. Blame who you will that no one believed it, it was there all the time.

skypair

I did not know John Wesley was Catholic???

Why do you use remarks that bring out the worst in people? Such as calling our posts silly?

 

[EdSutton]

Why is the truth silly to you??? Its a number that no man can number, according to scripture. Jesus said at this time His Kingdom did not come by observation, but is within us. As I research all the early brethren they did not speak of several Kingdoms, Just you and those who started it in the ninetenth century. Why should I agree with you when I don't?? He can be where ever He wants to be. He is in Heaven beside the Father, but He is my King, and the government of the church is upon His shoulders.


I did not know John Wesley was Catholic???

Why do you use remarks that bring out the worst in people? Such as calling our posts silly?

Not to get into this deeply, for we've been over it several times, but what do you mean by saying John Wesley did not have an eschatology? Of course he did, just as you and I do, even if what I say happens to be far more detailed (and correct) :smilewinkgrin: than what you are saying.

The fact that we happen to differ one from another, or that one is not as detailed in his own mind as another does not mean he doesn't have a doctrine of eshcatology, or any other doctrine, for that matter.

For an example, just because you and I believe in immersion, as the mode for baptism, and another believes 'sprinkling' or 'pouring' is acceptable does not mean they do not believe in baptism.

Just means that they are completely wrong, on this point. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed