millinial questions

Apparently many have read it, for there are several threads say they have read it. Sorry you can't find it. To me there are many others, who speak of the two different doctrines in the first 2 Centurys and then it was considered "spiritual" for the next 14 hundred years. God sure took His time getting the message to you fellows. I doubt if any of you agree on the thousand years. I have heard Israel being brought in, I have heard there will be sinners there, I have heard, they will bear children there, I have heard they will have to make animal sacrifices there. There is no limit to what I have heard.

Question:
Are we living under the "new" covenant or not, and if so, who was the promise made to,that He would make the "new" covenant with?


BBob,

 

I guess it depend on who made the false claim, and I sure don't believe it was me.

Anyway, I doubt if a question could be a ad hominem, and a question was what I asked. I think I even asked two questions.

BBob,

 

OK, Bob. You're getting behind in our more relevant debate about the MK temple. Set the scene in Ezek 40-48 for us timewise (Interesting sidebar I heard on this temple the other day --- that it will be at "Bethel" [125 miles north of the present temple mount] where "Jacob's Ladder" was seen into heaven. Recall John 1:51 where Nathaneal "hereafter" (sometime) would see "angels ascending and descending on the Son of man?" Jesus was saying Nate would see this in MK Bethel, no doubt, right?)

Anyway, it would be much appreciated if you would field the hard questions with the easy ones. :smilewinkgrin:

skypair

 

Ok, start with answering the following: I been reading all morning of the history on the Millenium and have never found where they will be offering up sacrifices again. Is there no end to what man will continue to add to this false doctrine??

The doctrine you espouse is an "old" Jewish doctrine, several hundreds of years before Christ, of which you were not considered a part in it, only the Jews. You are writing your own self out of the Kingdom, and making the same mistake the Jews made, who are still looking for the Messiah!! Are you still looking for your salvation?



1. Are we living under the "new" covenant??


It is really simple, the first one:
1.
Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Question: Are we still aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, having no hope, without God in the World?


2.
Eph 2:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Question: were we made nigh to Israel by the blood of the Lamb?

3.
Eph 2:14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Question: has the middle wall of partition been broken down between Israel and the Gentiles??

4.
Eph 2:15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Question: Has God brought together Israel and the Gentile, so they are one??


5.
Eph 2:19¶Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Question: Are we still strangers and foreigners or are we fellowcitizens with the saints and the household of God??


6.
Rom 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Question: Are they only Jews the ones who have been circumcised outwardly???


7.
Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Question: Have we been circumcised of the heart???

Answers please,

BBob,

 

Yes, Jesus will be bringing angels with Him to send to the four corners of the earth to gather in His children.

Strange you would mention John 1:

49: Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50: Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Reminds me of Israel crying out "give us a King" and God saying "I am your King".


Jhn 2:19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Jhn 12:13Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord..

Hbr 8:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hbr 8:7¶For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hbr 8:8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hbr 8:10For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

BBob,

 

My Apologies, the quote I attributed to Phillip Schaff was wrong. The source had it wrong and it is really quoted by:

Bob,

Thanks for the heads up. Turns out the quote has been mistakenly
attributed to Schaff. It is actually Hagenbach

*Dr. K.R. Hagenbach *(1852) "Though millennialism was suppressed by the
early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical
sects." (History of Christian Doctrine, Volume 2, p. 378)

http://books.google.com/books?id=9rUjRHiNPewC&pg=PA378&dq=%22revived+by+heretical+sects%22&lr=&as_brr=0&sig=ofYjOpFf15F2OSzH8Aa1M-1aOvU

Sorry for the misquote, I contacted them and they corrected it.

BBob,

 

Huh? That's nowhere NEAR right! You're comparing the Mt of Olives where He returns to Bethel!! Not at all, Bob. In fact, the angels "ascending and descending" may well be the NT saints during the kingdom!

Bear down, Bob. In the "school of hard knocks," it appears you are going to have to go for the "graduate degree!" :laugh: and meanwhile, you ignore that these promises were made to ISRAEL.

"House of ISRAEL," Bob. "House" usually delineates a "dispensation." And so it does here -- the MK is the dispensation of Israel's rule with Messiah!

Not strange -- appropriate. No coincidences here.


skypair

 

You really need to study the following, it goes to the very "root" of what we are discussing. I can't understand anyone believing that men are going to go back to the animal sacrifices. That would "belittle" our Lord, seems to me. Man, I don't understand that one at all.

1. Are we living under the "new" covenant??


It is really simple, the first one:
1.
Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Question: Are we still aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, having no hope, without God in the World?


2.
Eph 2:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Question: were we made nigh to Israel by the blood of the Lamb?

3.
Eph 2:14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Question: has the middle wall of partition been broken down between Israel and the Gentiles??

4.
Eph 2:15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Question: Has God brought together Israel and the Gentile, so they are one??


5.
Eph 2:19¶Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Question: Are we still strangers and foreigners or are we fellowcitizens with the saints and the household of God??


6.
Rom 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Question: Are they only Jews the ones who have been circumcised outwardly???


7.
Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Question: Have we been circumcised of the heart???

Answers please,


BBob,

 

BBob

They ARE! You are confusing spiritual Israel with national and religious Israel. What about the OT promises to Abraham and David, Bob? NEVER KEPT, eh? NEVER will be???? What did Stephen say? Abraham NEVER possessed an inch of God's promised land! Do you think he is due a "new covenant" per Jer 31:31?? or shall we let God's promises go unkept?

We ARE. But there are "dual applications" since Israel didn't accept Messiah. Yes, the Gentiles accepted Him "in their stead." But not to their exclusion. It was to their "postponment."

And can I tell you -- they will not die after they are resurrected and accept Him? They will inherit the earth, the MK and New Earth -- and we, New Heaven/NJ!! They're both together in eternity, Rev 22, right, Bob?

Are these actually strange to you or are you just hearing them for the first time, Bob?

Maybe you don't realize that Christ's first advent "counts" as part of the 1000 years of the MK. Many people's timelines are messed up because they haven't figured this out yet but when Jesus was here, the MK was "at hand!" In fact, they "figured into" the "kingdom" dispensation such that the 6th seal is a rejection of man's kingdoms just as the 6th dispensation was a rejection of Christ's kingdom!!

skypair

 

I feel your pain, Bob. :laugh: You can't understand the other side.

Yes, but not perfectly. To us, Passover wasn't "perfect"/complete either. It was "spiritually" complete but we weren't rescued from sin/Egypt, were we? Are you familiar with "dual application," Bob? From the cross onward there are 2 applications of the feasts --- one for the Gentiles/firstborn and one for REAL, on earth Israel!!

Yes and no. Watch...

2.Eph 2:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.[/quote] "Made nigh." Does that mean "replace?" No -- it means we are LIKE Israel, not identical to Israel nor in place of Israel.

3. Eph 2:14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Question: has the middle wall of partition been broken down between Israel and the Gentiles??[/quote] With OT Israel? No. There's still a "paritition." Two "folds," Bob.

Later, Bob. Gotta go.

skypair

 

So, if I understand you now, you are agreeing that the MK started with the first coming of Christ, is that right?

BBob,

 

"Made nigh." Does that mean "replace?" No -- it means we are LIKE Israel, not identical to Israel nor in place of Israel.

4.
Eph 2:15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Question: Has God brought together Israel and the Gentile, so they are one??




3. Eph 2:14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Question: has the middle wall of partition been broken down between Israel and the Gentiles??[/quote] With OT Israel? No. There's still a "paritition." Two "folds," Bob.

So Christ broke down the middle wall of partition, but didn't do a very good job at it?????

You are denying the word. The Gentile were without God and had no hope in the world, the wall was broken down, so they are no longer two peoples, but one. We were grafted into the Olive Tree.

Later, Bob. Gotta go.

skypair[/quote]

Salvation has already come to Israel and they that received it were given power to become the sons of God, they that refused it, if they don't accept Him before they die, they will be standing at the Wall, GWT.

God is not playing games, every how death finds you so will the resurrection receive you. If you die in your sins, where I am, you cannot come.

So you better get Christ on this side of the grave and make it as sure as you can!



BBob,

 

BBob,

Let's get back to talking about the MK temple in Ezek 40-48. Where is it? When was it? Why the sacrifices?

There is no "history" of the MK. It hasn't come.

Now to the Ezekiel temple please.

skypair

 

History of doctrine on the MK and you knew exactly what I meant.

The temple is Jesus Christ Himself and has already come. I don't know how to debate someone who believes that the sacrifice of Jesus was not enough to put away sin forever and believes we will be going back to animal sacrifices. I think that is ridiculous, just to be honest about the matter. If you don't know that Jesus Christ is the "temple", I don't know what to say to you.

Here is what John Wesley had to say about Ezek 43: 7

Verse 7

[7] And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
He — The glorious God of Israel.
My throne — The throne of his grace is in his temple; in the dispensations of grace, God manifests himself a king.
My feet — Speaking after the manner of men, and expressing his abode and rest, in his temple, as the type, in his church, as the antitype.
In their high places — Perhaps some kings were buried in the temples of their idols, near the idols they worship

Adam Clark:

Where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel

The tabernacle and temple were types of the incarnation of Jesus Christ: "Destroy THIS TEMPLE, and after three days I will raise it up;-but this he spake of the temple of his body;"

John 2:19,21. And in THAT TEMPLE "dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Into this immaculate humanity did the glory of the Supreme God enter; and thus, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself." And this Jesus is Immanuel, GOD with US. In him we find united the ineffable majesty of God, with the abjectness of man. He humbled himself in human nature, not only to bear the form of a servant, but to suffer death upon the cross as a malefactor slave! But by these means he has purchased eternal redemption for us; and the spiritual Israel, who find redemption in his blood, shall be raised up wherever his holy name shall be proclaimed; and shall not, like the old apostate Israel, defile that great name by idolatry or a life of wickedness, but they shall show forth the virtues of Him who has called them from darkness into his marvellous light.

If you don't accept scripture where the twain have become one. You are just not accepting scripture. :tear:

BBob,

 

There is a sense in which we are indeed living under the "New Covenant"; however, there is also a sense in which this applies to Israel, and not the church, as in Jeremiah.

Well, bein' as you asked with the 7 questions -

1. No. But the answer is tangential, not direct, here.
2. No. Wrong question is asked.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.
6. Yes. However, the addition of "only" in your question does makes the question confusing.
7. Yes.



Now I have one question.

What does any of the above have to do with whether or not there is going to be a future, 'literal', millenial kingdom reign of the Lord Jesus Christ on the earth from Jerusalem on David's throne?

Ed

 

Can we get this spelled correctly, please?

Would it be possible for a Moderator or an Administrator to edit the spelling of "millinial" to the correct "millenial", in the Thread Title, please? Thanks.

Signed, Language Cop

 

You will have to ask Skypair, he seems to think the "temple" has not come yet.

BTW, I have said all along that the "New Covenant" was to Israel. I also said, that the Gentile were grafted into that Covenant. There is no "sense" we are under the "new covenant", We are indeed under the "new covenant", or we are false witnesses and still in our sins!

How could you answer "no" to number 1 and then answer "no" to number 2. Seems to be there would be a conflict.

BBob,

 

The answer to #2 was "No!" because it was the wrong question. The verse, in its context, does not say what you are wanting it to say. We are "made near" to God, by the blood of Christ, in the direct sense. We, as Gentiles, are only "made near" to Israel, as both become members of the body of Christ.

BTW, "made nigh", from a previous post, does not mean, as you phrased it, "we are LIKE Israel, not identical to Israel nor in place of Israel.", anymore than it does not mean "replace", as you correctly said. It means "made near", as "near" is the word we say, whereas the 17th thru 19th century English speakers said "nigh". But there is no huidden meaning in the word, just an obsolete form.

I also will disagree with something else you said, in another place. You stated, regarding the Early Christians, this:

"All you and I both have to go on, is fragments of comments made by these early Christians."

This is simply not the case, in several instances. It is true in the cases of such as Papias and Polycarp, to name a couple, where we do not have great numbers of writings preserved, but not so in others. Multiple works, in their entirety, are known survive by such as Justin (3 complete + parts and fragments of others, not to mention numerous citations and multiple quotes by others), Ignatius (7 works + fragments of others), Tertullian (31 works + fragments of others), and Irenaeus (the 5 volume set Against Heresies is complete). Origen and Augustine, (pronounced as Au-GUS'-tin, and not AUG'-us-tine, as I have heard a lot of 'Calvinistic' Baptists say it, who want to appropriate him to support their view of predestination) to name two, were virtually "paper factories". More than one hundred volumes and 6000 chapters are ascribed to Origen; Augustine's well known City of God is 22 volumes in length, and over 100 different works are known, in their entirety.

Granted, I cannot read any of them, on my own, as I do not read Latin (and I suspect you do not either, from what you have said), so I expect that both of us are dependant on someone else's translation of these works. But that does not mean they don't exist, or that there are only fragments of them, to be found.

Here is are three quick 'Wiki" references: One can find much more references in the footnotes and citations, there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Father

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers

Check them all out.

This ought to keep you out of trouble until the NCAA tournament comes on TV. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

I have a few questions Brother Bob: Since you believe that the Millennial Kingdom is over, when did it end? Also, when was satan bound during the time Christ was living on this earth? If satan was bound, why was Christ tempted of satan in the wilderness for 40 days? Was satan loosed for those 40 days, then bound again?

I believe the Rapture of the Church is imminent...it can come at any time (1 Thess. 4:13-18). After the Rapture, the Antichrist will be revealed and God's wrath will be poured out on the Christ-rejecting world for 7 years...and the 70th week of Daniel will begin for Israel. Antichrist will promise a "false peace", but will break his "covenant" at mid-trib. The last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation (the Great Tribulation or the Time of Jacob's Trouble-Jeremiah 30:7) will end with all the nations of the world gather in the valley of Meggido (this is the battle of Armageddon-Revelation 16). During this great battle, Christ will return to this earth (Zechariah 14:4) to destroy all those nations who come against Israel. All the "raptured" saints (Church) will come back to the earth with Christ. After the battle of Armageddon, there will be a "Judgment of the Nations (Matthew 25:31-46). This is where Christ separates the sheep nations from the goat nations and sets up the Millennial Kingdom with Jerusalem as the EARTHLY headquarters. (Revelation 20:2-7). That is when satan is bound!

The Millennial Kingdom is not the new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21)

The everlasting kingdom comes AFTER satan is loosed for a "short season" to deceive the nations once more (Revelation 20:8) and satan is defeated in the Final Battle of Gog and Magog and thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:9-10). The Great White Throne Judgment is next, death and hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death. (Revelation 20:11-15)

 

What battle? If you are talking about the Armigedon, all kings shall gather together, but this shall be the great day of God almighty and He will overcome evil forever.

BTW; the Armigedon is the 6th vial of the wrath of God and I don't believe His children will be here for that.

1 Thes 4:

13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We will meet the Lord in the air and everly be with Him.

Please show me where Christ will be on the earth, I find we will meet Him in the air.

BBob,