millinial questions

Someone should of told Jesus!!!! Look like some of the church members would of told it before John Darby!!!!

Zec 9:9 ¶ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

You still waiting, not me, He is my King.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

These three are one............

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

All shall hear His voice, both saint and sinner..............

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Short work He will do.................

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Again, He is my King!!!

BBob,

 

Early English Particular Baptist pastor, Hanserd Knollys, understood the Bible's resurrection and millennium teaching:

"The Resurrection of the Dead hath this Order, and is described by the Apostle in this manner, to wit, Christ first, I. Cor. 15. 22, 23, 24. afterwards they that are Christ's at his Coming. But the rest of the Dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, Rev. 20. 5, 6. This is the first Resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection. They shall reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on Earth, Rev. 5. 9, 10. . . . . After the Saints are raised, and have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, shall be the general Resurrection, Rev. 20. 12, 13."

--The World that Now is; and the World that is to Come: Or the First and Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Wherein several Prophecies not yet fulfilled are Expounded (1681).

 

BB wrote
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Zec 9:9 ¶ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

You still waiting, not me, He is my King.
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Yes he came as the jews king but they rejected him, he set Israel aside and formed a new entity, the Church.

But he is coming back to set up that kingdom for Israel.

Acts 1:
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

After the kingdom is finished on earth then Christ surrenders all things to the Father
And it then becomes an eternal kingdom because there is no more time only eternity.

1 Cor 15::
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

No, the dead in Christ will rise first and those who remain will be caught up to meet them in the air and that is when we get 'our' glorified bodies, at the rapture. The rest get it 'after' the 1000 year reign of Chrst just before the Great White throne Judgment.

Here we see the dead rise to meet the living to meet the Lord in the air. This isn't the Second coming of Christ because that is specific to Christ being upon the earth. This is Christ calling up His Church to Himself, which when He does come He brings them (us) with Him. We see in 1 Cor what Pauls states happens at the 'rising up' or 'snatching away' (rapture).

Actaully, you are right. I merged the two together in mind some how..??. In the Mil Riegn, a person of 100 years of age that 'dies' will be considered as a youth comparitively. Life will be extended as seen here:

The no death part is 'after' the Great White Throne Judgment. Good Call! :thumbs:

That will be all that will be left on the earth after Christ destroys the rebellious who come to do battle against Him at His second coming. I LOVE the way scripture discribes that event. He FIRST grabs AC and false Prophet and throws them both 'alive' into the Lake of Fire (this was the beginning of the battle ) and then He slays the remnant with the sword of His mouth (the word of His mouth) Rev 19:20-21 ... Kings (leaders), nations (the people), so it is better descibed as the world will try to dethrone Christ at His coming but they will all be laid low.

There are others but this seems good unless you would like more.

The same could be said of now. Why does God allow us to continue or even allow the reprobate to be born?

I believe the reason falls back to 'mans responsiblity' although many scholars and theologians have varying opinions as to the 'why' question. Just like the in Garden when everything was perfect/innocent Adam and Eve still were accountable to believe and follow God therefore an option must be available. It will be much the same at that time, with the exception of mans excuse - "If we would have known what would have happened we wouldn't have done it" Though I don't know fully why God does it this way, I can see God throughout history removing all of mans excuses when that final Judgment day comes.
ex. (1) If we had only one rule we would not have sinned against you. (Thus we have Adam's situation).
(2) If you would have let us live according to our conscience we would have followed you in faith, after all we are all good at heart (and Noah's).
(3) If you would have given us rules to follow, we would know fully what you required and woud not faulter in our faith but be diligent to up hold them (Moses).
(4) If you would have given us guides to let us know when we were not walking correctly since we tend to wander, they could help us be faithful (Judges and Prophets).
(5) If you would just be merciful and save us through your grace by faith via a Gospel message, we would most certainly run to you. (Christ and Church).
(6) If you ruled physically over us and you yourself corrected us and brought peace and joy to the world like in the beginning, with all that we know now from history and of sin, there is no question not one alive would rebel but stand in faith. (Mil Reign of Christ)

(7) the Judgment by which no excuse can be offered on behalf of mankind.

 

Re: Millienial questions

Here is the biggest problem I have with the MK theology. We all know that God is a Spirit, and He seeketh such to worship Him in spirit and in truth. Jesus is a Spirit that came and took upon Himself an Earthly tabernacle, and tasted death for all of mankind, and is now in Heaven as a Spirit. Why all know that the Holy Ghost is a Spirit as well. Now, here's the rub(sorry TCGreek), why would three Spirits need a natural kingdon such as earth? Why does the Invisible need visable? These things just don't add up here, fellas.

I am with Bro Bob on this one...where is the scripture that SPECIFICALLY(sp?) states His throne will be here? Whenever it speaks of us going to Him, it's always UP!! 1Thes 4:16-17 comes to mind. It's always UP! The elements of this earth will melt with fervent heat. The earth will be destroyed, not "renovated" as some say. I am looking for Jesus to come today, and if He doesn't come today, I will look for Him tomorrow. I know I will leave this world(UP) and be completely satisified.

Willis

 

Convicted1 wrote
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I am with Bro Bob on this one...where is the scripture that SPECIFICALLY(sp?) states His throne will be here? Whenever it speaks of us going to Him, it's always UP!! 1Thes 4:16-17 comes to mind. It's always UP! The elements of this earth will melt with fervent heat. The earth will be destroyed, not "renovated" as some say.
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Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.



And yes we go up but everyone forgets we come back down with him.

Jude
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Heaven won't need regenerating but the earth will. Don't confuse the church with Israel.

 

They don't add up because you haven't studied it to know what it adds to.

Heaven was created for God and the earth was made for man. Man was not created to dwell eternally with 'in heaven' but the earth was made for man.

And just where exactly is the Throne of David (a man) which Christ is to and will be seated? God's throne is never once equated with the throne of David, but scripture states Jesus will sit upon Davids throne.

When did Jesus ever take up the throne of David to fulfill the prophesy of His government and peace in it, which He has ordered and established in justice and judgment FOR EVER? Is the prophesy fulfilled in which the throne of the house of Isreal has a man sitting in it and not just temporarily but that it shall never lack one (or better never lack again a king)? Not yet but it's coming

Or how about Jesus physically standing on the earth after the Great Trib when He conqueres His enemies and begins His reign:

The Battle of Armageddon:

 

Re: Millienial questions

Bro Allan,

You posted:Zec 14:8 ¶ And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one

When do you think this was fulfilled? This happened when Jesus hung, bled, and died on the cross on Calvary's hill. You can wait for the earthly kingdom all you want, as for me, when He shouts, I will answer, and I will go UP and forever be with Him in Heaven.

Willis

PS this will be my last post on this subject, because I admit, that this is something I haven't studied as much as some, but I do believe this has already happened. I don't want to get into any agruments because if we are saved, the outcome is good either way it happens, do you agre, Bro Allan. Just because I disagree, I disagree in love. May God bless you and your family!!

__________________

 

Don't worry Bro Willis; attack the messenger is a tatic some use, we certainly are not alone on this, but everyone is entitled to believe what they want. I will not accuse them of not studying enough, but do question their understanding. There is no way to fit a thousand years in what Jesus said: If you notice it is said "this is what I believe about it" and continue to give what they have come up with. I believe salvation is already come. It does not come over and over and over. Jesus died once.

Also, they are still waiting for the "living waters". The time of repentance is now, at end times there shall be no repentance. They will cry for it, but even death will flee from them. We believe that living water is flowing today, to all who will believe.

That fountain was opened for "sin and uncleanliness". I believe the children of God have already been cleansed from sin.

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

notice the "one" resurrection, they tell of several. They never consider that it is just the "souls" that lived and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years. One thing for sure, we teach that men must repent before death now.

Look at how many never studied enough! This is only small part of them.

II. Historical review of millennial thinking in Christian theology.
A. Early church (c. 100-250) - millennium not emphasized. Variety of views.

B. Early reaction to view of earthly millennium.

1. Origen (c. 185-254) attributed such thinking to heretic, Cerinthus

2. Montanist heresy (c.175) had excesses of earthly millennial views.

3. Rampant speculation to calculate end time.

C. Augustine (354-430) rejected his previous earthly millennial position and interpreted

"1000 years" of Rev. 20 as symbolic of entire period from first coming of Christ to

second coming of Christ.

1. Council of Ephesus (431) condemned earthly millennium interpretation as heretical

superstition.

2. Became orthodox view of Church for centuries.

D. Reformation (sixteenth century) - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Anabaptists accepted symbolic

interpretation of "1000 years." Regarded Catholic Pope as Antichrist.

E. Seventeenth - nineteenth centuries - gradually revived earthly millennium view.

F. Nineteenth & twentieth centuries.

1. J.N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), followed by D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, H.A. Ironside

(Dallas Theological Sem.), developed theological system of Dispensationalism

incorporating earthly millennium and pre-tribulation rapture of Church. Became a

primarily American theological phenomenon.

2. Majority of theological community (Post-millennial and Amillennial) has regarded

Dispensationalism as a modernist aberrational (disorder of the mind) interpretation.

John Calvin (1536)
"But a little later there followed the chiliasts, who limited the reign of Christ to a thousand years. Now their fiction is too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation. And the Apocalypse, from which they undoubtedly drew a pretext for their error does not support them. For the number "one thousand" (Rev. 20:4) does not apply to the eternal blessedness of the church but only to the various disturbances that awaited the church, while still toiling on earth."

C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Those who wish to see the arguments upon the unpopular side of the great question at issue, will find them here; this is probably one of the ablest of the accessible treatises from that point of view. We cannot agree with Mr. Young, neither can we refute him. It might tax the ingenuity of the ablest prophetical writers to solve all the difficulties here started, and perhaps it would be unprofitable to attempt the task.

Augustine (354-430) viewed the thousand years of Revelation 20 not as some special future time but "the period beginning with Christ's first coming," that is, the age of the Christian church. Throughout this age, the saints reign with Christ—not in the fullness of the coming kingdom prepared for those blessed by God the Father, but "in some other and far inferior way." This position, often called "amillennial," became the view of most Christians in the West, including the Reformers, for almost 1,500 years."

Daniel Whitby (1703)
"The doctrine of the Millennium was never generally received in the church of Christ " (Daniel Whitby, "A Treatise on the True Millennium," in Patrick, Lowth, Arnald, Whitby, and Lowman, Commentary on the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament, 4 vols. (Philadelphia, PA: Carey and Hart, 1845), vol. 4, p. 1118.)
"The doctrine of the millennium was not the general doctrine of the primitive church from the times of the apostles to the Nicene council . . . for then it could have made no schism in the church, as Dionysius of Alexandria saith it did." (Ibid., pp. 1122-23. He cites Dionysius 5:6; Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 7:24.)

Philip Schaff (1877)
"Though millenialism was supressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects." (Schaff's History, pg. 299 )

J. Marcellus Kik (1971)
"The premillenialist, however, maintains as a cardinal and fundamental tenet of his system of eschatology that the throne of glory is an earthly throne set up in the material city of Jerusalem. The temporal throne of David is to be reconstructed in Jerusalem... As a matter of fact there is not one passage in the New Testament which gives definite information of a personal reign of Christ upon a temporal throne in the material city of Jerusalem! What seems to be hidden to the apostles have been revealed by uninspired men." (An Eschatology of Victory, 171)

Alexander Brown
"Let us not forget that once in the Church's history it was the common belief that John's 1000 years were gone. Dorner bears witness that the Church up to Constantine understood by Antichrist chiefly the heathen state, and to some extent unbelieving Judaism (System iv.,390). Victorinus, a bishop martyred in 303, reckoned the 1000 years from the birth of Christ.
Augustine wrote his magnum opus 'the City of God' with a sort of dim perception of the identity of the Christian Church with the new Jerusalem. Indeed we know that the 1000 years were held to be running by the generations previous to that date, and so intense was their faith that the universal Church was in a ferment of excitement about and shortly after 1000 A.D. in expectation of the outbreak of Satanic influence. Wickliff, the reformer, believed that Satan bad been unbound at the end of the 1000 years, and was intensely active in his day. That this period in Church history is past, or now runs its course, has been the belief of a roll of eminent men too long to be chronicled on our pages of Augustine, Luther, Bossuet, Cocceius, Grotius, Hammond, Hengstenberg, Keil, Moses Stuart, Philippi, Maurice." (Alexander Brown, Great Day of the Lord, p. 216.)


BBob,

 

In context it hasn't been fulfilled.
1. When did Jesus do battle with the nations?
Answer: Not yet

2. Why does the prophesy specifically mention Jesus setting His feet on the 'Mount of Olives" since Jesus earthly ministry He was there at least a few times?
Answer: This is dealing with His second coming whereby He once again set His feet on earth. Thus it hasn't happened Yet.

3. When did the mount of olives split in two and causing a very great valley to appear, leaving the mount divided into two?
Answer: Not yet.

4. When has Jesus come with ALL His saints with Him?
Answer: Not Yet.

Therefore if none of the above have happened yet, niether has the living waters flowing out from Jerusalem come to pass, since it is a literal river and not allagorical. It flows to the sea. Also since the Great Trib will destroy the vast Majority of fresh water (if not all of it - I can't remember off hand exactly) but all that is in the Oceans (sea) will die due to it becoming polluted in various manners by divine judgment. Living water would be life giving water to the earth due to all other water sourses be polluted by divine judgment. This is not about spiritual water but literal 'fresh' and life giving water coming from the Captal City of the King of Kings.

I wasn't trying to be offensive, but was merely addressing the fact that you have not studied the Pre-Mil view to know what it entails and why. I have studied the Amil, and Post-Mil views in depth and found them lacking full biblical merit. In both their views the majority of Scripture is not to be taken literally but must be alligorical. There is nothing I have found that determines when these scriptures should be seen as alligorical except when the scripture goes against a particular view.

I just don't see God not allowing His word say what He means it to say when He breathed His words into the hands of Godly men.

So don't stop because you might have thought I was being overly argumentive (this is a debate board so we will at times ) but know that I was addressing you lack of understanding of the Pre-mil view.

God bless you and yours as well brother.

 

If Bro Willis is not going to answer anymore, hope you don't mind if I do. Anyway, Jesus said all will come forth from the grave in the selfsame hour. One resurrection, yet to come. Jesus never spoke of 2 resurrections or two raptures yet to come.

BBob,:thumbs:

 

BBob,

Let's go over to Ezek 43:4, OK? "Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city [re: Ezek 10] : and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar [re: Ezek 1 -- same God figure]; and I fell upon my face. And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever*, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile,..."

This is the MK temple situated in MK Jerusalem in the MILLENNIAL (1000 year) kingdom.

Your Augustines, Calvins, etc. ---- they were REPLACEMENT THEOLOGISTS! Of course they are going to deny anything ISRAEL is yet to come! These all had trust issues with the God of the Bible and decided wrongly to serve 2 masters.

skypair

* Even in the ages to come, God will dwell in the temple called New Jerusalem "in the midst of the children of Israel." Rev 22:1, 3

Bob, the bigger the lie, the harder it falls on you. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

This isn't about salvation but the second coming of Christ and the Kingdom He will set up. And the Disiples/Apostles thought the same thing.

They knew Christ is going to restore the Kingdom back it Isreal (which is where the Lineage of David rules from). Jesus didn't say "The Kingdom is already established" or that they were mistaken, or any such thing. He said that 'time' for the Kingdom to be restored is not for them to worry or concern themselves with because that is something only God is empowered to do. The very next verse Jesus tells the disiples what 'they' are empowered to do and worry about. God will do His part according to what is set in the authority He has and we are to do ours according to the authority God has given us to fulfill.

Please show the scripture that says there is only ONE resurrection to happen.
The verse you are quoting is refering to the after the 1000 yr reign of Christ when those who died during that time (those who did good) and ALL of the sinners (both small and great) are resurrected in eternal bodies for damnation.


Look at how many never studied enough! This is only small part of them.

You didn't cite the sourse of copy/paste which is here:
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/millennium.html
You also violated his request that "You are also free to transmit this outline electronically provided that you do so in its entirety with proper citation of authorship included", by not giving credit and modifying his work even though slightly (your - disorder of the mind).

I'm just saying be careful when you do this can it can cause you a lot of trouble.
Secondly he cite absolutely no sources for his assumptions and some are quite evident.

Here is a good work on Pre-mill
http://www.kneillfoster.com/articles/Premillennialism.html
Another good historical read of the Pre-mill view is here:
http://www.biblicist.org/bible/premil.shtml

While I agree that J. Calvin did not hold to a 1000 year reign of Christ, he did however believe in the physical return of Christ. Secondly he didn't even understand the argument of the chiliasts because it wasn't about a 'limited' reign of Christ, which is a common problem for those who don't do much research.

What does this have to do with anything. At the very most it states that though we cannot agree with him, we cannot refute him! Spurgeon believed in a literal physical return of Christ as well

Augustine was actaully a Chilininst in his early ministry but as he developed his reformed thoughts he came away with his replacement theology of the Church now being Israel and it became the predominant teaching of the Catholic Church and then the Reformed as it came out of it.

 

Finishing up:

False and refuted through the works and writtings of the early church fathers.
This guy actaully denies there was a division within the church regarding that view?? It is well documented, oh wait, that was back in the 1700's.

I find that hard to believe since he is cited here as stating the doctrine of Premillennialism has strong support in church history. What volume or specific title of his work is it in?? I would like to see the quote in context.
Schaff does state however that Premillennialism was the prevailing millennial view for the first 300 years of church history. As the historian Philip Schaff states,

"In the early church, Premillennialism was well represented by Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactantius. Papias’s belief in Premillennialism is especially significant since he was a disciple of Polycarp who in turn was a disciple of the Apostle John who penned the statements about a 1000-year reign of Christ in his Book of Revelation.

Through the influence of important church fathers such as Eusebius and Augustine, belief in Premillennialism waned significantly around the fifth century. With some exceptions, most in the Christian Church during the Medieval and Reformation eras held to Amillennialism and the view that the millennium was being fulfilled in a spiritual manner in the present age. However, the last 150 years has witnessed a strong resurgence of Premillennialism. Much of this can be attributed to the rise in popularity of Dispensationalism which affirms a future 1000-year reign of Christ upon the earth."


Theopedia states of the Premil view:

This next one is another classic example of someone who does not understand even the basics of Pre-mill.

Again, he also err's in his understanding. We do not believe the "throne of glory is an earthly throne". The Throne of Glory is in Glory where the Father sits and Jesus at His right hand. Christ will fulfill the prophesies of Davids lineage sitting on his throne as King of Israel forever, and that Old Covenant is fulfilled as God decreed it would be when He made it.
Found here:
http://www.theologicalstudies.citymax.com/premillennialism.html
A Reformed website even

 

JESUS did battle with the NATIONS, not us nor our faith in Him. You have wrested that verse completely from it's meaning.

You have to chop and divide these verse so no context exists at all for you. Yes, we will meet Him in the air and we will return with Him and at THAT time He will set foot on the Mt. of Olives and it will divide in two.

The Mt of Olives DIVIDES IN TWO causing a very great valley. There is no valley there today so it MUST BE future. Your verses don't negate the plain reading of the text. We don't allagorize what we want to disappear from biblical theology.

Is many of the 'saints which slept' the same as Him coming with ALL his saints?
Secondly, these saints were resurrected, is that the first resurrection??

One is a literal river and the other is a spiritual one. Both are defined the context of the surrounding passages. Your version takes each verse into an inordinate amount of directions and completely flies contrary to that of basic hermeneutics.

 

How about starting a new thread on 'The Resurrection - is there more than one?"

 

Not only the Catholic, but everyone else except those labeled heretics.

BBob,

.................

 

I guess if you do not believe the Water of Life is here, that is a good of an answer as any.

I will ask again, was all of Israel cut off and if not, what happened to the rest??



BBob,