millinial questions

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Since you believe satan has been loosed already, when did the events in the above verses take place?

When was it that the nations were not deceived?

Dave

 

First of all lets establish, who lived and reigned with Christ and where was it. Notice it says (past tense)

Scripture says the "souls" of them that were beheaded for the word of God. It says nothing about any bodies. Also, It does not place the reign upon the earth either. All of this has been interpted by man and not the scripture.

Second, what is a thousand years. Is it one day, one hour or is it really a thousand years of man's time. I really do not know, and doubt if anyone else's does.

Psa 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

2Pe 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I think the Greek word for a "thousand" in Rev. is an indefinite amount of time.

3rd, What happened while Jesus was on the cross, He shook the earth, until the rocks rent, there was a darkness that came upon the earth, and most important, there was a confession that He was the Christ.

Mat 27:54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mar 15:33¶And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

When the end of time comes the Lord said:

Hbr 12:26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Rom 14:11For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Now, as there will be a great fear come on this earth at the end of time when the sun turns dark and the earth shall quake, all shall confess that Jesus is the Christ, but it will be too late for those who do not have Him on their bond.

The same was true when Jesus died, there was such a quaking and darkness that a fear came upon them that even him who pierced Him in the side, confessed that He was the Christ.

Jesus by dying overcome satan and sin. Satan could not stop him and through His death, He conquered over death Hell and the grave and we obtained the victory.

Rev 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

When did Salvation and Strength come to mankind. It was when Jesus died on the cross, that the victory was won. Now, after Jesus arose from the dead, there were others that arose with Him.

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

They came out of the grave, after Jesus arose and went into that Holy city. If that is not a resurrection, then I am wrong.

1Cr 15:20¶But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Now Jesus tells us His eschatology:

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe what Jesus said about the matter, it will be a quick work He will do when He comes. He will receive the church and pass judgement upon the world.

I believe the Millennium was spiritual and started at the cross.

No where but no where, does it say that Christ will reign upon the earth.

BBob,

 

I appreciate all the time you spent in putting these verses together but you never answered the question.
When was satan bound to not tempt the nations? Simple question. When did the angel put the chains on satan and bind him? When was the time when satan had no influence on earth?

 

Good questions and my answer is: It hasn't happened yet...it is still future.

 

Rev 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

I gave you an answer, you must of overlooked it, or you are actually looking for a literal chain. He had to be bound to be cast down.

Now if you believe that Salvation has already come, then you must accept the rest of the scripture. If you are still looking for Salvation?

Again, My eschatology is the same as our Lord's.

Now Jesus tells us His eschatology:

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



BBob,

 

Bob,

Let’s look at the simple scripture one more time and that might help.

Revelation 20:3 “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

When was the time satan did not deceive the nations? If what you believe is true, you should find it simple to answer Bob. If it was after the Cross could you tell me when?

He must be bound now if we are in the millennium, right?

Dave

 

The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation?

 

It was at the cross, when Jesus died. There was a great darkness came on this earth and a fear that even he that pierced him, confessed his name. If you are looking for a 1000 years in man's time, then I can't answer you, for it was with God and not man. Also, it was spiritual and if it was going on right now, you couldn't see it, but I guarntee you that satan could decieve no one when this earth was renting in two, while Jesus died on the cross binding satan and casting him down, and overcome death, hell and the grave.

The millennium is finished and Satan is loosed. We are living in the little season now.

Do you believe that when Jesus died that "salvation and strength" came to the believers???

question;

If right now, the whole earth began to shake so that the mountains rent in two, there came a darkness such as never been in what should be day and a fear came upon the whole world such as had never been. Do you believe satan would have any power.



BBob,

 

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation


Anything else is a different eschatology than what Jesus spoke of.

BBob,

 

Sorry Brother Brother Bob, if what you say is true, then you have Jesus contradicting Himself.

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Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues
NOT that the end is near..
--------------------------------

The John 5:28-29 passage is a summary of events that happen over a 1,000 year period. It is NOT a different teaching of Jesus - it is the same teaching.

 

They both happen in the selfsame hour, right Brother Bob?

 

//Scripture says the "souls" of them that were beheaded for the word of God. It says nothing about any bodies. Also, It does not place the reign upon the earth either. All of this has been interpted by man and not the scripture.//

Uh, the Bible says that 'a living soul' is what God created when He created a human:

Gen 2:7 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
The Lord God also made the man of the dust of the grounde, and breathed in his face breath of life, and the man was a liuing soule.

Sounds like the 'souls of them beheaded for the word of God' probably are alive and the head/body has been recombined. Makes as much sense as the quote above.

 

Exactly, just recall prophetic time-term definitions:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
season = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

 

Uh, post-millennialism (Jesus comes back after the Millennial Kingdom is established) is a Church Myth from about AD 0326. It is a totally bankrupt belief. Some people can't tell the Millennial Messanic Kingdom from the Tribualation Period???

 

Yes, you are correct Menageriekeeper! Your signature/trailer says all we need to know about why the Lord Tarries!

 

I'll say one thing Bob, You're beliefs are really out there. The scriptures that you use to support your beliefs contradict the very beliefs that you say they support.

To discuss this further with you seems to be something that will prove fruitless. Your beliefs are far from any I have heard except from the RCC. You seem to have been strongly influenced by the RCC.

I pray that you see the truth of scripture on this matter because you do seem sincere in your efforts to express your beliefs.

I believe that if you knew the truth about this matter you would not believe what you do.

Dave

 

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10: And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


This is the tribulations of which even the church will see and is close to the end times. It is the signs we will see and no flesh would be saved, except for the elect's sake, those days were shortened. This is not the "wrath" of God, but tribulations that will come on men before the end comes.

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19: And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is also those tribulations and men standing where they ought not. I think we see some of that now, men standing behind the pulpit, where they are not called and standing upon Holy ground. I believe that is starting to be fulfilled now. I agree it is a sign that it time for Him to appear in the air and the voice of the arch angel will sound and the trump of God. When this happens, then the resurrection will take place of both the just and the unjust.


3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32: Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38: For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39: And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40: Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41: Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42: Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43: But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

It is not only a sign of the coming of the Son of man, but is the coming of the Son of man. This is when all that are in the grave shall come forth and unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation.

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age
42: Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.
42: Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (both the same)

I agee it will be the sign of His coming, right after the tribulations.


Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues
NOT that the end is near..
--------------------------------

The John 5:28-29 passage is a summary of events that happen over a 1,000 year period. It is NOT a different teaching of Jesus - it is the same teaching.
__________________

John;
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You added the 1000 years, nowhere did Christ put in a 1000 years. I am sorry also Ed, for what you just posted about John is not scripture, and it most suredly is different than what Jesus taught.

I can not stress strongly enough, that the tribulations are not the wrath of God, for the first Baptist preacher, named John, preached "who hath warned ye, to flee the wrath to come". We can't flee the tribulations, but we can flee the seven vials of the wrath of God.


BBob,

 

I visited a Catholic church once. I preached some funerals of Catholic members, but my doctrine is in line with Jesus Christ. I try not let the teachings of men influence me too much.

Well, I am getting pretty old now and have Pastored for over 35 years. Studied all those years and find the MK is yet to come goes against everything Jesus taught about the end of time. When I find that Rev is not in alignment with what Jesus teaches, I start all over.

You asked me some questions, permit me to ask you some.

Can you show where the "souls" that reign will be on the earth.

Can you show where Jesus will ever reign on earth.

No where does it say anything about the "souls" or Jesus coming in the clouds from Heaven to the earth. Also, everyone of you, as far as I can tell, have a different eschatology from each other and the early Christians. As for me, my belief that the MK is spiritual, is in accordance with the early Christians on a whole.

Rev
1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


This is Jesus's eschatology, could you point out where I differ with our Lord on the eschatology??

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

BBob,