millinial questions

[Linda64]

Augustine, akin to the other "doctors" and "fathers" of the Catholic Church, was polluted with many heresies. Like Jerome, he was baptized in Rome, the very seat of apostasy. He adopted some of the allegorical methods of biblical interpretation which were championed by Origen, and he redefined the church and the kingdom of God as an ecclesiastical-political alliance in this present world. He was the father of a-millennialism. "Augustine was the first who ventured to teach that the Catholic Church, in its empirical form, was the kingdom of Christ, that the millennial kingdom had commenced with the appearing of Christ, and was therefore an accomplished fact" (Encyclopedia Britannica).

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/augustinefather.htm

 

[skypair]

The temple is Jesus Christ Himself and has already come.

In other words, you allegorize the entire 9 chapters of Ezek. I could be wrong but I don't think you answered your right calling. Wasn't there something else God called you to do besides preaching His word?

I don't know how to debate someone who believes that the sacrifice of Jesus was not enough to put away sin forever...

And I don't know how to debate someone who doesn't drink the real blood and eat the real flesh -- not just wine and bread -- of Jesus. Get real! I'm no more saying that the sacrifices are made for sin than that you eat real blood and flesh!

Here is what John Wesley had to say about Ezek 43: 7 [7] And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne,... where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever,...

Here's what you could say: Neither Jesus nor God's throne is in the midst of the children of Israel at this time --- much less forever yet! "Children of Israel" has specific reference to national ISRAEL (remember, the ones who fled Egypt and entered the Promised Land?). And even at that, Christ is seated in His Father's throne IN HEAVEN right now -- not in Isreal's midst and not in the church's midst!

He — The glorious God of Israel.
My throne — The throne of his grace is in his temple; in the dispensations of grace, God manifests himself a king.
My feet — Speaking after the manner of men, and expressing his abode and rest, in his temple, as the type, in his church, as the antitype...

This is ALL just so much allegorized "fluff." It's this kind of detaching of sermon from scripture that is leading Methodism "down the tubes!"

Adam Clark: The tabernacle and temple were types of the incarnation of Jesus Christ: "Destroy THIS TEMPLE, and after three days I will raise it up;-but this he spake of the temple of his body;"

There's a grammatical difference between "allegorizing" like you use and a "metaphor" like Jesus used. and furthermore, they DID destroy His body AND He did raise it up -- TO HEAVEN, NOT TO THEIR OR ANYBODY ELSES MIDST FOREVER!!

You are totally being taken captive by these guys at their will, aren't you? They "embellish" scriptures so ornately and you just fall right in with them, don't you? Do you, for instance, have the slightest doubt that much of the "church" has defiled God and Christ just like Israel did and, for example, gone about to worship "cookies?" They're like Israel, all right --- like religious Israel, the branches that got "lopped off" the "natural olive tree!!"

So no, you'll have to try again with Ezek 40-48, Bob. It is a very detailed "blueprint" for a building. Comparably, it is more like what God gave to Moses in the wilderness than the description of Jesus body (I only say this so you'll "have a clue." :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

BBob,

It is very strange that men know more than what Jesus knew. He did not teach what you are teaching. He never mentioned it period.

Then without a doubt you have the insight of the Pharisees, Bob. "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south [of EARTH], and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." Luke 13:28-29, Mt 8:11

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh [to EARTH]. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household [kingdom], to give them meat in due season?" Mt 24:44-45

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ... Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Mt 25:31, 34

There are others. But even the Phaisees knew that the "Son of man" would come and set up His PHYSICAL EARTHLY kingdom which apparently you claim has already come.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Augustine, akin to the other "doctors" and "fathers" of the Catholic Church, was polluted with many heresies. Like Jerome, he was baptized in Rome, the very seat of apostasy. He adopted some of the allegorical methods of biblical interpretation which were championed by Origen, and he redefined the church and the kingdom of God as an ecclesiastical-political alliance in this present world. He was the father of a-millennialism. "Augustine was the first who ventured to teach that the Catholic Church, in its empirical form, was the kingdom of Christ, that the millennial kingdom had commenced with the appearing of Christ, and was therefore an accomplished fact" (Encyclopedia Britannica).

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/augustinefather.htm

The Premillennialism of Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.]




Justin was a Christian apologist who battled the Judiast Heresy and Greek Philosophy. He was martyred in Rome in 165 AD. Justin was a chiliast, and probably a premillennialist. He did believe in a literal 1,000 year reign, and believed that dead saints would be resurrected and take part in the millennium.

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 year reign), and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." (Dialogue with Trypho, CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS. SEVERAL CATHOLICS REJECT IT.)

Seems that Justin did not consider those who did not believe in a Millennium to be any less Christian than He was.


It says that several Catholics reject it. A-Mill was around long before Augustine, as were there several doctrines of the Millennium. Some believed it would be a "sensous" time where all the desires of the flesh would be fulfilled.

BBob,



​

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob,

Then without a doubt you have the insight of the Pharisees, Bob. "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south [of EARTH], and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." Luke 13:28-29, Mt 8:11

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh [to EARTH]. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household [kingdom], to give them meat in due season?" Mt 24:44-45

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ... Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Mt 25:31, 34

And none of them speak of an earthly kingdom.

There are others. But even the Phaisees knew that the "Son of man" would come and set up His PHYSICAL EARTHLY kingdom which apparently you claim has already come.

skypair

If you read the Gospels and find what was the eschatology of Jesus Christ, and then read what is the eschatology of BBob, you will find they are one and the same.

Jesus said He would come and all in the graves would come forth and unto them that have done good the resurrection of Life, unto them that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation.

You are starting to sling mud now and I don't care for it, but it is a sure sign that you have run out of scripture.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

In other words, you allegorize the entire 9 chapters of Ezek. I could be wrong but I don't think you answered your right calling. Wasn't there something else God called you to do besides preaching His word?

And I don't know how to debate someone who doesn't drink the real blood and eat the real flesh -- not just wine and bread -- of Jesus. Get real! I'm no more saying that the sacrifices are made for sin than that you eat real blood and flesh!

Here's what you could say: Neither Jesus nor God's throne is in the midst of the children of Israel at this time --- much less forever yet! "Children of Israel" has specific reference to national ISRAEL (remember, the ones who fled Egypt and entered the Promised Land?). And even at that, Christ is seated in His Father's throne IN HEAVEN right now -- not in Isreal's midst and not in the church's midst!

This is ALL just so much allegorized "fluff." It's this kind of detaching of sermon from scripture that is leading Methodism "down the tubes!"

There's a grammatical difference between "allegorizing" like you use and a "metaphor" like Jesus used. and furthermore, they DID destroy His body AND He did raise it up -- TO HEAVEN, NOT TO THEIR OR ANYBODY ELSES MIDST FOREVER!!

You are totally being taken captive by these guys at their will, aren't you? They "embellish" scriptures so ornately and you just fall right in with them, don't you? Do you, for instance, have the slightest doubt that much of the "church" has defiled God and Christ just like Israel did and, for example, gone about to worship "cookies?" They're like Israel, all right --- like religious Israel, the branches that got "lopped off" the "natural olive tree!!"

So no, you'll have to try again with Ezek 40-48, Bob. It is a very detailed "blueprint" for a building. Comparably, it is more like what God gave to Moses in the wilderness than the description of Jesus body (I only say this so you'll "have a clue." :laugh:

skypair

Yea, or the temple Solomon.

Bbob,

 

[skypair]

Skypair: //Let's get back to talking about the MK temple in Ezek 40-48. Where is it? When was it? Why the sacrifices?//

=EdEdwards]It will be built by the Antichrist between the pre-tribulation rapture event (rapture following a resurrection of the church age saints) and the mid-tribulation crises.

That is the APPEARANCE that AC wants Israel to think anyway!

But no. There will also be a real MK temple -- the one described in Ezek 40-48 WITH the outer court (it is called "utter court" in Ez 40:31, 37, 42:1, 8 more citations) which Rev 11 tells us is missing from the tribulation temple.

And Ezek 45:3 tells us "And of this measure shalt thou measure the length of five and twenty thousand, and the breadth of ten thousand: and in it shall be the sanctuary and the most holy place." 25,000 cubits or roughly 16000 feet.

And what about the river (Ezek 47), Ed?

No, Ezek is the MILLENNIAL temple, not the trib one.

skypair

 

[Linda64]

The Premillennialism of Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.]




Justin was a Christian apologist who battled the Judiast Heresy and Greek Philosophy. He was martyred in Rome in 165 AD. Justin was a chiliast, and probably a premillennialist. He did believe in a literal 1,000 year reign, and believed that dead saints would be resurrected and take part in the millennium.

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 year reign), and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." (Dialogue with Trypho, CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS. SEVERAL CATHOLICS REJECT IT.)

Seems that Justin did not consider those who did not believe in a Millennium to be any less Christian than He was.


It says that several Catholics reject it. A-Mill was around long before Augustine, as were there several doctrines of the Millennium. Some believed it would be a "sensous" time where all the desires of the flesh would be fulfilled.

BBob,



​

Justin Martyr really isn't a good example. When he embraced Christianity he held on to some of his pagan philosophy, such as:

1. He interpreted the Scriptures allegorically and mystically.

2. He helped develop the idea of a "middle state" after death that was neither heaven or hell. Eventually this doctrine became Rome's purgatory and limbo, where babies went when they died unbaptized.

Most of those "Church fathers" were out and out heretics...that's why the Scriptures are my final authority.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is the APPEARANCE that AC wants Israel to think anyway!

But no. There will also be a real MK temple -- the one described in Ezek 40-48 WITH the outer court (it is called "utter court" in Ez 40:31, 37, 42:1, 8 more citations) which Rev 11 tells us is missing from the tribulation temple.

And Ezek 45:3 tells us "And of this measure shalt thou measure the length of five and twenty thousand, and the breadth of ten thousand: and in it shall be the sanctuary and the most holy place." 25,000 cubits or roughly 16000 feet.

And what about the river (Ezek 47), Ed?

No, Ezek is the MILLENNIAL temple, not the trib one.

skypair

So, you Millenniums cannot even agree with your selves.

You need to start raising "Red Heifers" Skypair. You also need to quit trying to teach people false doctrine.

BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

Justin Martyr really isn't a good example. When he embraced Christianity he held on to some of his pagan philosophy, such as:

1. He interpreted the Scriptures allegorically and mystically.

2. He helped develop the idea of a "middle state" after death that was neither heaven or hell. Eventually this doctrine became Rome's purgatory and limbo, where babies went when they died unbaptized.

Most of those "Church fathers" were out and out heretics...that's why the Scriptures are my final authority.

I am glad you said that, for Jusin was one of the very first to advocate a literal kingdom in the Christian Church. I can't wait until Ed Sutton sees this.

I hope you don't mind if I quote you on this.

Sister Linda64: Could you tell me who it was that Justin Martyr had to appear before and explain his veiws on the Millennium??

I have to go to church, after all, not-withstanding, what Skypair posted above about me, I still am a Pastor. Have a nice day in the Lord.


BBob,

 

[skypair]

From what I have read, my eschatology is about the same as the church for the first 1600 years or more, they for the most part, believed the Mill to be Spiritual.

Yes, Bob, and they allegorized EVERYTHING just like you do! From Origen to the 17th century when some began to delineate distinct plans of God for a) Israel and b) the church -- pre-cross and post-cross.

So why don't we just spiritualize everything and admit that God makes literal promises that He has no intentions of keeping. He showed Abraham a land and promised him the Sea to the Euphrates - Egypt to Tyre (approximately) yet a) Abraham never even possessed "so much as as to set his foot on," Acts 7:5, and b) Abraham never will possess it!! That's the kind of God YOU have, eh?

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, Bob, and they allegorized EVERYTHING just like you do! From Origen to the 17th century when some began to delineate distinct plans of God for a) Israel and b) the church -- pre-cross and post-cross.

So why don't we just spiritualize everything and admit that God makes literal promises that He has no intentions of keeping. He showed Abraham a land and promised him the Sea to the Euphrates - Egypt to Tyre (approximately) yet a) Abraham never even possessed "so much as as to set his foot on," Acts 7:5, and b) Abraham never will possess it!! That's the kind of God YOU have, eh?

skypair

Better yet, why don't we just ask God for an understanding of the Scripture.

As I just posted. I have to go to church for not-withstanding what you posted about me previously, I am still a Pastor of which I been doing for 35 years.

Have a nice day in the Lord.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

So, you Millenniums cannot even agree with your selves.

Ed is playing John McCain to my Joe Leiberman here, Bobby. :laugh: I'll whisper in his ear in a moment! :laugh:

You need to start raising "Red Heifers" Skypair. You also need to quit trying to teach people false doctrine.

I'm sorry you feel you need to allegorize everything. Doesn't that make you wonder if Paul's prophecy of the rapture in 1Thes 4:16 was a real "trip to the clouds" or merely another way of saying that "life is but a vapor?" :laugh:

Jesus did, indeed, foretell your idea of kingdom --- and mine. It is your efforts to "mash 'em" into one that is groundless.

skypair


BBob[/QUOTE]

 

[Linda64]

Notes from "Advanced Bible Study Series: Prophecy" by David Cloud:

The Millennium

"Millennium" is a Latin term that means 1,000 and it refers to the 1,000 years mentioned in Rev. 20:2-7. This is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom fortold by Old Testament prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7). The millennial reign is only one phase to Christ's eternal rule.

Chief Features of the Millennium as Seen in Zechariah

1. Israel will repent, be restored to the land and be exalted:

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

2. Israel's enemies will be destroyred:

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

3. Christ shall reign over the whole earth from Jerusalem:

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

4. The earth shall be blessed with peace and prosperity:

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

5. Sin shall be restrained with a rod of iron:

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zechariah 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

6. Righteousness shall reign:

Zechariah 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

to be continued.....

 

[Brother Bob]

Notes from "Advanced Bible Study Series: Prophecy" by David Cloud:

The Millennium

"Millennium" is a Latin term that means 1,000 and it refers to the 1,000 years mentioned in Rev. 20:2-7. This is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom fortold by Old Testament prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7). The millennial reign is only one phase to Christ's eternal rule.

Chief Features of the Millennium as Seen in Zechariah

1. Israel will repent, be restored to the land and be exalted:

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

2. Israel's enemies will be destroyred:

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

3. Christ shall reign over the whole earth from Jerusalem:

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

4. The earth shall be blessed with peace and prosperity:

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

5. Sin shall be restrained with a rod of iron:

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zechariah 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

6. Righteousness shall reign:

Zechariah 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

to be continued.....

Zechariah 14:

1: Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

He fought and won, by giving His life, He conquered over death, hell and the grave. Jesus is the greatest power there is, if you will accept Him, He will make a way for all your temptations. He will keep you and at death, deliver you to a rest for your soul, and in the end, if the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, dwell in you, it shall also quicken your mortal body.

You are still waiting on the victory, I already have it.

14: And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15: And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So, it will be all about money again, silver and gold and from yeat to year they will go up to worship the King and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You mean they will worship once a year for thousand years. Can't you see this has come to past???? Even the Lord went up on the day of the passover. jeepers...............

You don't seem to know that Jerusalem is the saved, both Jew and Gentile. He that overcometh will I write upon him the name of that Holy City, New Jerusalem and I will make him a pillar in that city. When Jesus died, satan and his followers were cast out of the church which is those who are born again and cleansed up. The church is clean today, not as it were when it was in the flesh, but God seek such to worship Him in Spirit and truth.

Yes, that fountain was opened when Christ died on the cross and His blood flowed back to cover them who had died in faith believing and is still flowing today, but one day will be shut off.

You and Cloud are just like Israel, you reject the fact that Christ came to Israel and those who received Him, He gave power to become the sons of God and they are cleansed up and are in the Church.

You do not accept that Christ fought the battle and won over death, hell and the grave. You do not accept that the saved are eating from mother Jerusalem's table and drinking from the water of the fountain of life. I feel for you.

I don't need what Cloud said, I don't believe him either on eschatology, he is speaking against what Christ said about it.

BBob,

 

[Linda64]

continued from notes on "Advanced Bible Study Seriesrophecy" by David Cloud

Other Features of the Millenium in Isaiah:

1. The creation will be blessed; the curse will be lifted:

Isaiah 29:17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
Isaiah 32:15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Isaiah 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
Isaiah 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
Isaiah 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

2. The sick will be healed:

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
Isaiah 33:24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
Isaiah 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

3. The poor will prosper:

Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 29:20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

4. Every man will be given spiritual understanding:

Isaiah 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

5. There will be peace and safety:

Isaiah 32:18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

Isaiah 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

6. The animal kingdom will be at peace:

Isaiah 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

7. There will be universal joy and gladness:

Isaiah 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Isaiah 51:11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

8. Israel will be exalted and enlarged:

Isaiah 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
Isaiah 49:19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
Isaiah 49:20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
Isaiah 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

9. Israel will be glorified:

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Isaiah 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
Isaiah 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Isaiah 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
Isaiah 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

10. The Gentiles will honor Israel:

Isaiah 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

11. Man's life will be lengthened:

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isaiah 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

 

[Linda64]

Zechariah 14:

1: Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

He fought and won, by giving His life, He conquered over death, hell and the grave. Jesus is the greatest power there is, if you will accept Him, He will make a way for all your temptations. He will keep you and at death, deliver you to a rest for your soul, and in the end, if the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, dwell in you, it shall also quicken your mortal body.

You are still waiting on the victory, I already have it.

14: And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15: And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So, it will be all about money again, silver and gold and from yeat to year they will go up to worship the King and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You mean they will worship once a year for thousand years. Can't you see this has come to past???? Even the Lord went up on the day of the passover. jeepers...............

You don't seem to know that Jerusalem is the saved, both Jew and Gentile. He that overcometh will I write upon him the name of that Holy City, New Jerusalem and I will make him a pillar in that city. When Jesus died, satan and his followers were cast out of the church which is those who are born again and cleansed up. The church is clean today, not as it were when it was in the flesh, but God seek such to worship Him in Spirit and truth.

Yes, that fountain was opened when Christ died on the cross and His blood flowed back to cover them who had died in faith believing and is still flowing today, but one day will be shut off.

You and Cloud are just like Israel, you reject the fact that Christ came to Israel and those who received Him, He gave power to become the sons of God and they are cleansed up and are in the Church.

I don't need what Cloud said, I don't believe him either on eschatology.

BBob,

Brother Bob,

Do you differentiate the nation of Israel from the Church? Or, do you believe that the Church has replaced Israel? If this is what you believe, I will end the discussion right here. I am a dispensationalist....I do not believe that the Church has replaced Israel.

All those Scriptures I have been quoting are God's promises to the nation of Israel...NOT the Church. My victory is IN CHRIST, not in any man's eschatology. As a born again, blood washed Jewish believer, I am a member of the Church/Body of Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

continued from notes on "Advanced Bible Study Seriesrophecy" by David Cloud

Other Features of the Millenium in Isaiah:

1. The creation will be blessed; the curse will be lifted:

Isaiah 29:17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
Isaiah 32:15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Isaiah 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
Isaiah 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
Isaiah 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

2. The sick will be healed:

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
Isaiah 33:24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
Isaiah 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

3. The poor will prosper:

Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 29:20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

4. Every man will be given spiritual understanding:

Isaiah 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

5. There will be peace and safety:

Isaiah 32:18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

Isaiah 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

6. The animal kingdom will be at peace:

Isaiah 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

7. There will be universal joy and gladness:

Isaiah 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Isaiah 51:11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

8. Israel will be exalted and enlarged:

Isaiah 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
Isaiah 49:19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
Isaiah 49:20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
Isaiah 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

9. Israel will be glorified:

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Isaiah 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
Isaiah 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Isaiah 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
Isaiah 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

10. The Gentiles will honor Israel:

Isaiah 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

11. Man's life will be lengthened:

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isaiah 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

As far as Isaiah goes:

“Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.”

If you are going to quote that Isaiah is talking about the Millennium, you will also have to include the same Lord spoken of in Isaiah, which says Heaven is His throne and earth is His footstool.

I think that about completely does away with your throne on earth.

Linda64; Most of those "Church fathers" were out and out heretics...that's why the Scriptures are my final authority.

And to think, you said you got your information from scripture and not men. Oh well, so much for that.

BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

Do you differentiate the nation of Israel from the Church? Or, do you believe that the Church has replaced Israel? If this is what you believe, I will end the discussion right here. I am a dispensationalist....I do not believe that the Church has replaced Israel.

I believe Israel is the church and included is all nations after Jesus died.

As far as Isaiah goes:

“Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.”

If you are going to quote that Isaiah is talking about the Millennium, you will also have to include the same Lord spoken of in Isaiah, which says Heaven is His throne and earth is His footstool.

I think that about completely does away with your throne on earth.


BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Dispensationalism and Zechariah 14

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/dispensationalism_and_zechariah_14

Zechariah 14 has no reference whatever to a millennial reign of Christ upon the earth.




Dispensationalists – those enamored with the notion that Christ will return to the earth to establish a political kingdom over which he will reign for 1,000 years – rely heavily upon Zechariah, chapter 14, as an important Old Testament element of the premillennial scheme. Dispensational writer Hobert E. Freeman characterizes this chapter as a description of “the destruction of Israel’s enemies, salvation of Jerusalem and the millennial reign of the Messiah over all the world from Zion.” He further states:

“The prophecy of Zechariah is to the Old Testament what the book of Revelation is to the New. It is the Apocalypse of the Old Testament which portrays God’s future dealings with His chosen people Israel . . . The book of Zechariah, especially chapter 14, stands as a continual corrective to all those theories which deny the literal, future restoration of Israel, after a period of chastening, in her own land, over whom the Messiah will reign in Zion” (334-335).




​

Dramatically, advocates of dispensational theology allege that Zechariah 14:1-3 contains a description of the approaching “battle of Armageddon,” which supposedly will be consummated by the descent of Christ “upon the mount of Olives” (vs. 4) to overthrow his enemies and to commence his millennial reign.
The truth of the matter is, Zechariah 14 has no reference whatever to a millennial reign of Christ upon the earth. The Bible indisputably teaches that the Second Coming of the Lord will terminate all earthly affairs (2 Pet. 3:4,10).

The Folly of Literalizing Zechariah 14

A careful study of Zechariah 14 will reveal that those who attempt to literalize the message of this chapter, as the premillennialists do, are pursuing a disastrous course of interpretation.
Consider the following:

1. If this chapter refers to the literal return of Christ (i.e., the Second Coming) upon the mount of Olives, exactly who is it that will make that escape flight to the east when the mountain is cleft? It cannot be the wicked, for the Bible plainly teaches that they will be destroyed when the Lord returns (Mt. 25:31-46; 2 Thes. 1:7-9). Moreover, it cannot be the righteous, for they will be “caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thes. 4:17). Who else, pray tell, is left?
2. Verse 8 speaks of living waters going forth from Jerusalem in summer and in winter. Since summer and winter will occur only as long as the earth remains (Gen. 8:22), and as the earth will not remain beyond the Coming of Christ (2 Pet. 3:4,10), it is obvious that the events of this verse cannot transpire after the literal return of Jesus – which supposedly is alluded to in verse 4.
3. Verse 12 tells of Jehovah smiting his enemies and their “flesh” being consumed. Again, this cannot refer to a period after the literal return of Christ; the Coming of the Lord will signal “the end,” at which point the dead will be raised, and the living – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye – will be changed from flesh to a new, spiritual essence. We will pass from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality (1 Cor. 15:23-24,51-53).

Consequences Resulting from the Dispensational View of Zechariah 14

The dispensational view of Zechariah 14 strikes at the very heart of the nature of Christ’s atoning work at the cross.
Verses 16 and 21 speak of those who go up to observe the feast of tabernacles, and who offer sacrifices. Again, dispensationalists literalize the language, asserting that Judaism, with all its carnality (cf. Heb. 9:10) and animal blood, will be revived in the “millennial” age. A thoughtful writer focuses upon the weaknesses of this view:

“Are these interpreters ready to accept the restoration of the Old Testament feast with its offering of animal sacrifices? During the feast of tabernacles, which began on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, daily offerings of animals were made by fire, 199 animals of all kinds were offered, ‘besides the continual burn-offering, and the meal offerings thereof, and the drink offerings thereof’ (Num. 29:12-38). Among these daily offerings was ‘one he-goat for a sin-offering.’ Jesus is our sin-offering, and if we go back to offering he-goats for sin-offerings we must reject Jesus as a sufficient offering for our sins” (Lanier, 633).
​

The Old Testament law, with its rivers of animal blood, was abolished at the cross (Eph. 2:15-16), hence has been “taken” (erken – in the perfect tense, denoting the permanent abolition of the law of Moses) away for ever (Col. 2:14).
Truly, dispensationalism is a Judaistic, materialistic, and infidelic system. (For more information on the implications associated with dispensational premillennialism, see our “Feature”, “Examining Premillennialism” – February, 2001.)
Conclusion

Whatever else the meaning of Zechariah 14 may be, it cannot be harmonized with premillennial theology. Two common views of this remarkable chapter, entertained by non-millennial scholars, are as follows:

1. Some hold it to be a symbolic prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, together with a spread of the gospel throughout the Christian age thereafter (cf. Collins, 761-763; Wallace, 246-248).
2. The better view, in this writer’s judgment, suggests that the language is a figurative depiction of the history of spiritual “Jerusalem” (the church), from the time of its commencement on the day of Pentecost throughout the Christian age (see Hengstenberg, II.1155-1182; Laetsch, 493-506). Woudstra had a nice summary of the matter.
   BBob,
   ​