Miracles

You have no way of determining that those are all by definition supernatural. If you went back in time, and were able to "explain" all of them scientifically, they'd still be miracles nonetheless.

 

It neither bans the supernatural, nor does it require it. I never said a miracle is not a supernatural act of God. I said that a miracle need not be a supernatural act of God all the time. Supernatural or not, a miracle is an act of God. Sometimes it's supernatural, sometimes it's not. </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, show us from the Bible where the terms for miracle from God or Christ is used and it is not supernatural.

 

You have no way of determining that those are all by definition supernatural. If you went back in time, and were able to "explain" all of them scientifically, they'd still be miracles nonetheless. </font>[/QUOTE]They would not be miracles at all. They would be natural events.

Do you think the above were supernatural or not?

 

Mar 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.

Supernatural (creation of mattera)

Joh 4:54 This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.

Supernatural (healing from a distance)

Joh 10:41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.

John was a great man, baptized Jesus, and caused many to repent, and come to know the Lord yet, NONE of his actions, as wonderful as they were, were ever called a miracle, infact, they were specifically said NOT to be miracles.

Joh 12:17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
Joh 12:18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.

Supernatural (raised the dead)

Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
Act 4:22 For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.

Supernatural (born lame then suddenly dancing a jig)

Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Supernatural (water to wine)

Joh 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

Supernatural (They SAW the miracles, they weren't merely impressed with the likelihood)

Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

Supernatural (Clear, outward, obvious, and immediate)

When the bible speaks of a miracle or miracles and specifies what it was, it is always something overt, outward, observable, clearly impossible without the interaction of the supernatural. The dead are raised, lepers are healed, the lame walk, the blind see. Sunsets are never called miracles, things that are nice, pleasant, good aren't called miracles. People want so badly to be close to the events in the Bible that they are willing to call many things miracles were are in reality NOT miracles. I, for one, do NOT want to see a miracle. Seeing a miracle has a detrimental effect on faith. Faith is believing that which you cannot see. If you can see it, you do not get to have faith.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

That's where you and I disagree. IF they were all naturally explainable, they'd be miracles nonetheless.

I have no idea. I wasn't there, so I can't determine if they were or not. And it doesn't matter. They're still miracles.

 

Marcia,

You are absolutely correct about the nature of miracles. It is astounding how many Baptists don't have a clue as to what a miracle really is. I suppose that is one reason why so many Baptists are being led off into the charismatic heresy.

Mark Osgatharp

 

I hit a semi at 105 mph and walked away from that acident with only 2 broken ribs and some cuts and scratches , thats not parting the red sea but I promise you folks that was a miracle!!

 

I agree. It is a lot more than just Baptists who are being led astray or, should I say, further astray. I have heard so many people who were impressed with a "miracle" when it was only a rare event.

 

Agreed!

I think we have misused this word - MIRACLE - to the point that it really means little anymore.

Kinda like the overuse of the word - LOVE!

I love God
I love my family
I love my dog
I love my car
I love fudge
I love that color
etc., etc., etc.!

 

Here is an interesting article I found at lifeway.com, concerning miracles and providence.

Just some food for thought

http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/article_main_page/0,1703,A%253D152738%2526M%253D200163,00.html

 

Might I corectlly guess that you are a Furman alum/fan by your name - Paladin?

 

Not a Furman alum or fan ... instead got the name from "Have Gun-Will Travel" starring Richard Boone

 

Interesting!

I deduced by your being in the SE that you had ties to FU.

You know you're dating yourself by the source for your name, don't you?

 

That's where you and I disagree. IF they were all naturally explainable, they'd be miracles nonetheless.
</font>[/QUOTE]How could they be miracles if they arise from natural conditions? It's not a miracle if I drive my car to the store. It may be amazing considering all the machinery involved and getting there with other cars on the road, but it's not a miracle.

A miracle is by definition supernatural, John. A miracle is not just something that is amazing.

I have no idea. I wasn't there, so I can't determine if they were or not. And it doesn't matter. They're still miracles.
</font>[/QUOTE]Did you see Artimaeus' post quoting scripture referring to many of the things as miracles? The Bible calls them miracles.

Do you think when Jesus turned water into wine he secretly had people pour out the water and put wine into the barrels?

 

Because they're the handiwork of God, and a work of wonder.

You fail to prove that via scripture. Yes, miracles can be supernatural, but they are not required to be supernatural.

The Bible calls them miracles. The Bible does not require the supernatural as a prerequisite for miracles.

I don't know, I wasn't there. I know it was a miracle. I presume it was supernatural. But I don't know that for a fact, and I don't need to. You, however need to, because you have inserted that requirement into the requisite.

 

I must say I am really dumbfounded that some would believe a miracle is not a supernatural event from God.

If a miracle is just anything rare or amazing, then how could Jesus show he was the Messiah by his miracles in order to fulfill prophecy? He would not need the power of God to perform them.

 

John, I think you are redefining the word 'miracle.' If God intervenes to perform an event that cannot be done naturally, it's supernatural. That is what miracles are and that is how they are depicted in the Bible.

Can you go up to a rock and make water come out of it? Can you make a storm stop instantly? Can you turn water into wine? Can you make bitter waters taste sweet by throwing a log into the water? Can you part a body of water right now so that there is only dry land? Why not?

It's because you do not have supernatural power to do so; you only have your natural abilities (unless God were to give you His power to do so, which would be supernatural power).

 

I don't know, I wasn't there. I know it was a miracle. I presume it was supernatural. But I don't know that for a fact, and I don't need to. You, however need to, because you have inserted that requirement into the requisite. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]If Jesus just had people pour out the water and put wine into the barrels, then it was not a miracle. Anyone can do that; but the bible specifically calls this a miracle.

 

Not exactly. The Bible depicts miracles as God intervening, and implies that the purpose is to demonstrate God's greatness. God's intervention can result in a supernatural occurrence, but the occurrence of the supernatural is not a prerequisite for something to be a miracle.

It should be noted that the word "miracle" is derived from the Latin "mirari", which means "to wonder". The word itself means "a work of wonder".

 

John, so when intervenes and the Bible calls it a miracle, it can be a natural event? Which event in the bible that is called a miracle do you think could be natural?

Why is it great if God is just doing something natural? Doing something in the natural is something men can do.