Mixing the Metaphors

[Alan Dale Gross]

I know of not a single regular poster on this forum who understands and believes that the physical and historic Israel is a real and eternal entity with specific and detailed prophecies about them that is not shared with any other entity and those things that are prophesied about them that have not already come to pass will surely be realized sometimes in the future. This is as sure as the God of heaven who made the prophesies.

Israel, OTOH, is the physical family of God who was established by an everlasting covenant that promised their perpetual existence as a nation with land boundaries clearly laid out in that covenant. These covenant promises cannot fail unless God who promised them can fail.

One of the elements of the Abrahamic covenant is that all the families of the earth are being blessed through the seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ, during the 3 one thousand year days of God while Jesus is away.

Since using metaphors are one of the ways of God to dispense truth, they must be mastered and correctly and consistently applied to assure sound doctrine.

Does anyone agree with this evaluation of the circumstances?

No, because I am commanded not to.

"Not giving heed to Jewish Fables" Titus 1:14.

Try some Bible on for size: #5 - The Hope of Israel, What is It? by Philip Mauro - Full View | HathiTrust Digital Library

& pop into some of these and peruse them to your heart's content.

They are Bible based; not just rash guesses and speculative surmisings
from the reasonings of a mind affected by the curse of the law
that think they "know" something
and are not in subjection to The Lordship of Christ and His Holy Spirit Led Bible passages;
Philip Mauro's The Hope of Israel: Table of Contents. (acu.edu)

• Title Page, p. 3.
• Copyright Page, p. 4.
• Foreword, pp. 5-6.
• Contents, pp. 7-8.

• Chapter I, pp. 9-13.
  • The Nature and Importance of the Question, pp. 9-13.
• Chapter II, pp. 14-25.
  • How Are the O. T. Prophecies of Blessing to Israel to Be Interpreted? pp. 14-18.
  • An Illustration from Zechariah, pp. 18-25.
• Chapter III, pp. 26-32.
  • How the O. T. Prophecies Concerning Israel Are Interpreted by Paul, pp. 26-32.
• Chapter IV, pp. 33-37.
  • What the Fathers of Israel Were Looking For, pp. 33-37.
• Chapter V, pp. 38-53.
  • God's Warnings through Moses to His Earthly People, pp. 38-49.
  • What the Apostles Were Looking For, pp. 49-52.
  • Erroneous Teachings Concerning the Sinaitic Covenant, pp. 52-53.
• Chapter VI, pp. 54-61.
  • God's Warnings through Moses (Continued), pp. 54-58.
  • The Important of the Right Understanding of These Prophecies, pp. 58-59.
  • The Kingdom Foretold by Moses, pp. 59-61.
• Chapter VII, pp. 62-75.
  • God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Joshua, pp. 62-68.
  • From the Desert to the River Euphrates, pp. 68-72.
  • "The Son of the Bondwoman Shall Not Be Heir," pp. 72-73.
  • The Period of the Judges, pp. 73-75.

con't

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

• Chapter VIII, pp. 76-83.
  • Salvation in Zion, pp. 76-79.
  • The Sure Mercies of David, pp. 79-83.

• Chapter IX, pp. 84-93.
  • The Travail of Zion, pp. 84-86.
  • A Voice from the Temple, pp. 87-90.
  • Isaiah's Prophecy as a Whole, pp. 90-92.
  • The New Nation a Resurrection, pp. 92-93.

• Chapter X, pp. 94-102.
  • The New Covenant, pp. 94-96.
  • The New Covenant People, pp. 96-97.
  • In That Day, pp. 98-102.

• Chapter XI, pp. 103-112.
  • Ezekiel's Prophecies: The Doom of Jerusalem. The Branch. The Shepherd of Israel. The Valley of Death, pp. 103-110.
  • The Valley of Dry Bones, pp. 110-112.

• Chapter XII, pp. 113-136.
  • Ezekiel's Temple; Waters Flowing from the House; Where Did the Spirit Descend at Pentecost? pp. 113-114.
  • Is It the Plan of a Temple for the Millennium? pp. 114-117.
  • The Vision, pp. 117-118.
  • The Purpose of the Vision, pp. 118-120.
  • Was the Pattern Shown to Ezekiel Followed? pp. 121-122.
  • Where Did the Spirit Descend at Pentecost? pp. 122-123.
  • The Temple the Place, p. 124.
  • "Continually in the Temple," pp. 125-127.
  • The Day of Pentecost, pp. 127-129.
  • The Service of the Feast of Pentecost, pp. 129-132.
  • The Source of the Living Waters, pp. 132-133.
  • "Go Speak in the Temple All the Words of This Life," p. 134.
  • Living Waters Flowing from the House of God, pp. 134-135.
  • A Great Difference, pp. 135-136.

• Chapter XIII, pp. 137-153.
  • What the N. T. Teaches as to Future Mercy for the Jews, pp. 137-148.
  • The Figure of the Olive Tree, pp. 148-150.
  • Until the Fulness of the Gentiles Be Come In, pp. 150-153.

• Chapter XIV, pp. 154-168.

• "The Hope of the Gospel." Christ's Personal Teaching, pp. 154-155.
• Another Hope, pp. 155-156.
• Not in the New Testament, pp. 156-157.
• No Second Chance, pp. 157-160.
• The Personal Teaching of Christ, pp. 160-168.

• con't

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

• Chapter XV, pp. 169-183.
  • Other N. T. Passages on the Future of Israel, p. 169.
  • The Teaching of Paul, pp. 169-176.
  • The Disciples' Question in Acts I, pp. 176-180.
  • As to the "Tribulation Saints", pp. 180-183.

• Chapter XVI, pp. 184-196.
  • Where Is the Promise of His Coming? pp. 184-186.
  • The Promise of His Coming, pp. 186-196.

• Chapter XVII, pp. 197-211.
  • "The Election Hath Obtained It," pp. 197-198.
  • To Whom Pertain the Promises, pp. 198-199.
  • "The Promises," pp. 199-205.
  • Hath God Cast Away His People? pp. 205-206.
  • The Kingdom of God, pp. 206-208.
  • The Word of Faith Which We Preach, pp. 208-211.

• Chapter XVIII, pp. 212-230.
  • Building Again the Tabernacle of David, pp. 212-214.
  • "After This," pp. 215-216.
  • The Tabernacle of David, pp. 216-218.
  • As Living Stones, pp. 218-220.
  • An Habitation of God, p. 220.
  • Other Details of the Passage, pp. 220-222.
  • George Smith on the Tabernacle of David, pp. 222-229.
  • Calvin's Comment on Micah 4:6, pp. 229-230.

• Chapter XIX, pp. 231-240.
  • "Shall Israel Be Restored as a Nation?" pp. 231-235.
  • Ezekiel's Testimony, pp. 235-236.
  • Isaiah's Testimony, pp. 236-237.
  • The New Testament Scriptures, pp. 237-240.

• Chapter XX, pp. 241-261.
  • Concerning the Millennium, pp. 241-243.
  • Help from the Relativity Theory, pp. 243-244.
  • Dr. Stafford's Study of the Kingdom, pp. 244-246.
  • The Second Death and the First Resurrection, pp. 247-251.
  • Living and Reigning with Christ, pp. 251-252.
  • The Testimony of Paul, pp. 252-257.
  • Satan Bound and Loosed, pp. 257-261.

 

[JD731]

Try some Bible on for size: #5

Really! How do you suggest I answer that? And please tell me why it is a sensible post.

 

[Van]

Here is what the OT says about the events of the ministry of Christ;

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Nobody on this Baptist board believes that verse, Romans 15:8. Nobody here believes it.

1) Anytime someone claims to be a mind-reader, saying they know others do not believe Romans 15:8, you know the claim is nonsense.

2) Jesus is a minister or servant of the circumcision, or put another way Jesus is the servant of the Jews who believe. Many Christians I expect believe that, as I do.

3) The verse says God's promises to the "fathers," believing Jews such as Abraham, have been confirmed. The verse does NOT say those promises did not include the Gentiles. Just read Romans 15:8-12.

 

[kyredneck]

No, because I am commanded not to.

"Not giving heed to Jewish Fables" Titus 1:14.

Try some Bible on for size: #5 - The Hope of Israel, What is It? by Philip Mauro - Full View | HathiTrust Digital Library

Excellent.

 

[JD731]

1) Anytime someone claims to be a mind-reader, saying they know others do not believe Romans 15:8, you know the claim is nonsense.

2) Jesus is a minister or servant of the circumcision, or put another way Jesus is the servant of the Jews who believe. Many Christians I expect believe that, as I do.

3) The verse says God's promises to the "fathers," believing Jews such as Abraham, have been confirmed. The verse does NOT say those promises did not include the Gentiles. Just read Romans 15:8-12.

JD731 said:
Here is what the OT says about the events of the ministry of Christ;

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Nobody on this Baptist board believes that verse, Romans 15:8. Nobody here believes it.

No, that is an error. If you want to put it another accurate way, say it this way;

Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Here is another way that is accurate;

Lu 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And check this most accurate way to say it;

Heb 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the (Hebrew) fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us (Hebrews) by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (Aions);

In the last days of his ministry to the Hebrews, he says this;

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It is best just to haul off and believe Paul knew of what he spoke in Romans 15:8. Jesus in his earthly ministry was the minister of the circumcision, the Hebrews, the Jews, The house of Israel. His post resurrection ministry is extended in time to gentiles but only through his apostles and prophets and their writings. Romans was written in 58 AD, not very long before the apostolic era ended.

Additionally, all the scriptures that were addressed to gentiles and written by Paul, the hand chosen apostle to the gentiles by Jesus Christ, (one of the 3 qualifications of an apostle BTW) were for the purpose of revealing the mysteries of this age. Mysteries because the doctrines of God in this age were not given in the Old Testament and were hidden in God the Father where no one could know them unless he revealed them.

THINK!!!

 

[JD731]

Excellent.

Hold up there, ky. Not so quick. Don't you think there is a reason the believers in the church at Ephesus and Cyprus was more liable than, say the church in Philippi, to give heed to Jewish fables? Do you understand that the province of Asia was loaded with those of the stock of Abraham through Jacob, the ten misplaced tribes of the nation Israel since the 7th century BC? The place was full of synagogues and some of the fiercest enemies of Christianity in the Acts are from that region. Read the history in Acts and see for yourself. These guys were those who troubled the Galatians with law keeping and John would speak of the Judaizers in this way when he wrote his epistle.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Read Acts 14 & 15 and if someone offers you Philip Mauro's book, run like it is a timber rattler.

 

[Dave G]

I know of not a single regular poster on this forum who understands and believes that the physical and historic Israel is a real and eternal entity with specific and detailed prophecies about them that is not shared with any other entity and those things that are prophesied about them that have not already come to pass will surely be realized sometimes in the future.

I understand and believe that Israel is a physical nation and will always be beloved of God as a nation in the temporal, or earthly sense;
For the sake of their elect fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
They have prophecies yet to be fulfilled, and many that have already been fulfilled.

I also understand that the "Israel of God", which is a spiritual "nation" made up of God's elect ( both Jews and Gentiles that have been "grafted together" into one "tree", see Romans 11, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, Galatians 3:7-14, Ephesians 2:11-17 ), have their own set of prophecies and blessings that some have already been fulfilled, and some have yet to be so.

The subject rarely comes up, so I've not posted much on it.

In addition, God's children can and do come to understand the Scriptures for themselves over time, so I'm confident that they will begin to see the difference between "Israel" and Israel in their studies.

 

[percho]

You have not thought your theology through very well. The Bible never ever teaches what you propose in point #1. Jesus Christ did not come into the world in the beginning of the 5th Millennium of human history to make sheep out of sinners. The metaphor was established already during the times of the prophets. The idea that is brought forth is that Israel, God's people, are like sheep who wander off. He later says that it is the cause of a lack of faithful shepherds.

Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Identifying "my people.,"

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Ex 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
God said this to Moses while there were nations of gentiles in the world to whom he was not speaking of. Where you get the idea that Israel means gentile sinners and the sheep are the same I cannot tell but you did not get it from the scriptures.

In point #3 both Jesus and the gentile woman understood that Jesus was speaking metaphorically about her and her people when he used the phrase "dogs." To claim differently only proves you will not be honest with the texts and the establishment of the biblical metaphors.

My people, make me think of Amos 3:1,2

? Does, "That Whom he did foreknow," apply R 8:29? That is my thought.

 

[kyredneck]

Don't you think there is a reason the believers in the church at Ephesus and Cyprus was more liable than, say the church in Philippi, to give heed to Jewish fables?

I don't know that they were.

Do you understand that the province of Asia was loaded with those of the stock of Abraham through Jacob, the ten misplaced tribes of the nation Israel since the 7th century BC? The place was full of synagogues and some of the fiercest enemies of Christianity in the Acts are from that region.

It was far more than just Asia, JD.

21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. Acts 15

5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Acts 2

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Rev 17

There was nothing small or insignificant about the 'Jewish arrangement' of that day.

 

[kyredneck]

8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. Acts 2

 

[kyredneck]

if someone offers you Philip Mauro's book, run like it is a timber rattler.

Too late! I'm a big fan of his writings from the early 20th century.

"Philip Mauro

FAMOUS PATENT LAWYER | SUPREME COURT LAWYER | PREPARED BRIEFS FOR SCOPES TRIAL | WAS ON CARPATHIA DURING RESCUE OF RMS TITANIC SURVIVORS

As far as twentieth century Christian figures are concerned, Philip Mauro stands out as one of the most captivating. After coming to a saving knowledge of the Lord in 1903, at the age of forty five, Mauro, a member of the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States and one of the foremost patent lawyers of his day, began his “Testimony” of what was to him the most important event in his life.

His repeated successes in courts of law, coupled with his legal briefs, could not but gain recognition, for they were “models of accuracy, conciseness, and literary finish.” As such, they were “frequently used by judges in the text of their decisions.” Perhaps one of the most important occasions where his legal work was requisitioned was in connection with the famous Tennessee-Scopes trial in 1925. The argument which William Jennings Bryan used, and thereby won the case, was prepared by Philip Mauro.

His early twentieth century was a period of great expansion for many errors, such as Dispensationalism and Anglo Israelism. Mauro’s book, “The Hope of Israel,” which was written three years prior to the Scopes trial, stands as a testament to his astute mind and sharp pen, most dashing in the face of the most formidable adversaries. Rising to the forefront of Christianity’s great struggle against these foes, he applied the preparation God had given him, and scored great victories for sound doctrine."

 

[kyredneck]

"FOREWORD

"NOT GIVING HEED TO JEWISH FABLES" (Titus 1:14).

Jewish fables (literally, myths) are no new thing. Paul has plainly warned the household of faith not to give heed thereto. He has not given us a list of those grievous heresies; but it is well known that the one that was most fondly cherished, and that constituted the gravest menace to the truth of the gospel, was the notion that the leading purpose of the mission of the coming Messiah would be the reconstitution of the Jewish nation and its elevation to the highest pinnacle of earthly dominion and glory; for that fatuous doctrine was the cornerstone of orthodox Judaism in Paul's day; and because of his sturdy opposition to it he was persecuted, his enemies plotted to take his life, and he was sent a prisoner to Rome. No wonder that, during the term of his imprisonment there, he wrote to Titus his plain-spoken warning against "Jewish fables."

Such being the case, we question if there be anything in all the long history of Christianity that is more difficult to account for than the fact that that particular fable, concerning the purpose of Christ's mission to the Jewish people, has become the central feature of a system of doctrine which, in this 20th century of our era, has found numerous and zealous advocates amongst orthodox Christians. In view of this extraordinary phenomenon, it surely behooves those who take the Holy Scriptures for their guide and instructor in all matters of faith and doctrine, to search them with the utmost care "whether these things be so." This [5] last chapter of the present volume, something fresh upon that subject of perennial interest. Enough at this point to say that, as the author now sees it, the great question concerning the Millennium is not When? but Where? [6]"

 

[JD731]

My people, make me think of Amos 3:1,2

? Does, "That Whom he did foreknow," apply R 8:29? That is my thought.

Percho, I want to try to help you learn some truths that helped me as I learned them. God does not think like we men thinks. His thoughts are different than ours. He has the capability of thinking like us but we do not have the capibility naturally to think like him. His thoughts must be interpreted for us and so many of his truths, though standing alone, must also be paired with other thoughts he has revealed to us. This is one reason that his very words are so important. The words he has chosen are the vehicles for his truths. Do away with or change the words and you lose some ability of knowing God.

Now the scriptures say in 1 Cor 13 that we see through a glass darkly. We are told there that we must be given light and light in the scriptures equals understanding and understanding equates to knowledge. The scriptures tell us that Jesus in his glory is light that no man can approach and we are told that when we stand in his presence, face to face, in our glorified state that we will know even as we are known.At that time faith and hope, tandem principles that must be present for anyone with partial knowledge, will then be done away. One who has partial knowledge must have faith.

Psalm 119:130
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

The words are both individual and collective above;


Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God says this:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

If light in the scripture is a metaphor for understaning and knowledge the likewise is darkness a metaphor for ignorance and blindness.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

I am going to tell you, Percho, I would hate to stand before God in judgement and account for why I refused to believe 39 of the 66 books he has written to us, claiming they are figurative and does not mean what they say. This is nothing but willfull ignorance and blindness of heart.

God looks at Israel in the same manner as he looks at his word, both as a collective one and also individuals. This is the reason he requires everyone of them to be born again before entering his earthly kingdom that he has promised them. IHis kingdom promises will be realized when every one of them are children of God through the new birth or it will not be realized at all. This is the reason that he has promised them that at a point in time, prescheduled by him, a time called "the day of the LORD" he will baptize them in the fires of judgementt on the earth and burn up all of the chaff. Seven judgements in the furnace
LORD; the fires will burn hot and destroy the rebels among them and also the gentile rebels.

Here is Israel collectively;

Ex 4:21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Here is indivial responsibilty:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Logic and reason says that if all who will not hear Jesus Christ will be destroyed at his coming, it will leave only those who did hear him.

Men like Phillip Morou are preaching without light.

The metaphors for the church of Jesus Christ are a temple of the Spirit, a house, a family, a bride, a body who is one with Christ in the same way a man is one with his wife and it has a gentile character.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Some thoughts on God's covenant with Abraham (from my currently dormant blog Martin Marprelate)

With whom was the Abrahamic Covenant made? Only with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These last two received the Abrahamic promises not through their relationship to Abraham, but directly from God (Genesis 26:2-5; 28:12-15). The covenant is made with no one else. If I believe that God is going to make a great nation out of me, or make me a blessing to all nations, or give my descendants the Land of Canaan as a possession, I am more than likely to be deceiving myself. Nor could an Israelite appropriate the promises to himself; any of Abraham’s descendants other than Isaac and Jacob might be childless. But when we place our faith in the promised Seed, we may appropriate the promised blessing as we become a child of Abraham by faith (Gal 3:7) and inherit the heavenly country that Abraham sought and found (Hebrews 11:15-16). The covenant ‘with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’ is repeatedly mentioned in Scripture (Exodus 2:24; 32:13; Lev 26:42; Numbers 32:11; 2 Kings 13:23; 1Chron 16:16ff; Psalms 105:9 etc.) but no one else is ever spoken of as being in the covenant with them.

We have said that the covenant promises to Abraham were of land, nation and seed. Each of these has both an earthly and a heavenly fulfilment. There is an earthly land of Canaan which the Israelites eventually came to inherit, but we are told in Romans 4:13 that the promise was for the whole world (cf. Matt 5:5; Rev 5:10), and in Hebrews 11:16 that Abraham looked forward to a heavenly city. These are fundamentally the same promise and refer to the new heavens and new earth and also to the heavenly Jerusalem of Rev 21;1-3 which Abraham will inherit along with all believers at the end of time. Likewise, there was an earthly nation descended from Abraham who came to live in Canaan, but we learn from Galatians 3:7 that believers of all nations are his true descendants and it is they who will inherit the heavenly promises.

There are two seeds of Abraham with two different promises. Firstly, there is a physical seed to whom are given physical promises- a great nation and a physical land for it to dwell in. These promises were received by Israel in full (Josh 21:43-45). This seed ‘after the flesh’ (Gal 4:29) is represented by Ishmael. It is most important to understand that Ishmael is not in the Covenant. ‘And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before you!” Then God said, “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him”’ (Gen 17:18-19). Nothing could be clearer than this; Ishmael is not in the covenant, although he receives the covenant sign (v26). Ishmael, though not an Israelite, is a type of Israel after the flesh. He receives the earthly promises (Genesis 17:20) and the outward sign, but not the spiritual blessings (Gal 4:30; Acts 7:51-53). He persecutes the True Seed (Gen 21:9; John 8:37ff; Gal 4:29). His circumcision is of no avail to him since he lacks what circumcision symbolized; a humble, circumcised heart (Jeremiah 9:25-26).

There is also a spiritual seed of Abraham; those who are in Christ, the True Seed, by faith. These are they who are looking for a heavenly country just as Abraham was. Just as Abraham did not receive an earthly inheritance (Acts 7:5 etc), so the true Israelite knew that Canaan was not his true home (Psalms 119:19. cf. 1 Peter 2:11). He put no confidence in his circumcision, but rather his circumcision spoke to him of the promised Seed of Abraham who should come (cf. Luke 2:25-32; Phil 3:3).

What then did circumcision signify to Abraham’s physical male progeny and to his male servants? Well, firstly it had nothing to do with faith. It was a requirement for service in Abraham’s household. If you wanted to work for Mr Abraham, you had the snip. Indeed, nowhere in the entire Bible will you find physical circumcision connected with anybody’s faith but Abraham’s. In itself it signified precisely nothing. From the descendants of Abraham, the Messiah would be born, but it did not follow that any particular descendant should be an ancestor of Christ. Circumcision was a sign, not to Abraham’s physical seed, but to those ‘Israelites indeed’ (John 1:47) who were looking forward to Christ by faith, that the promises of God should eventually be fulfilled.

Next we can look at the ‘promises:’ ‘Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ……..and if you are Christ’s then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise’ (Gal 3:16, 29). The spiritual promises of the Abrahamic Covenant never applied to those who were physical descendants of Abraham, but to those of all nations (including Israel, of course) who are in Christ by faith. Very solemn are the words of our Lord on this matter: “And I say to you that many will come from east and west and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, but the sons of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 8:11-12).

So we see that the Abrahamic Covenant is tied up with the coming of the promised son- the miracle child (Gen 15:2-6). Isaac is not Christ, but he is a type or foreshadowing of Christ: long promised, born miraculously, persecuted by his own kin (Ishmael), offered up by his father, who received him (figuratively- Heb 11:19) back from the dead. The children of God come from him (Rom 9:7; Heb 3:5b). It is worth reading Isaiah 54 prayerfully in the light of these points.

 

[37818]

. . . one thousand year days of God . . . .

The OP supposed 1000 year days, an eschatological view, a view not universally agreed on, as to how or when.

 

[JD731]

The OP supposed 1000 year days, an eschatological view, a view not universally agreed on, as to how or when.

True. All Bible believers believe that. Fake Christians do not. Nothing could be more clear in the scripture than that God is telling us that a thousand years is a metaphor for one day in his thinking and that a day is as a thousand years. My thread is about metaphors.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

True. All Bible believers believe that. Fake Christians do not. Nothing could be more clear in the scripture than that God is telling us that a thousand years is a metaphor for one day in his thinking and that a day is as a thousand years. My thread is about metaphors.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I think you have the wrong understanding of what is meant in the Bible by a thousand.
Psalms 50:10. 'For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.' If we can find more than a thousand hills, do the cattle not belong to God? Of course they do. 'A thousand' here means 'all that there are.
Deuteronomy 7:9. '....... The faithful and merciful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments.' If there were to be 1,001 generations, would God not keep mercy and covenant with those who love Him? Of course He would. A thousand here means all that there are.
Psalms 90:4. 'For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past.' How about 1.001 years? Or 10,000 years? Are they not also like yesterday when it is past to God? Of course they are. God lives outside of time for He created time. Everything to Him is a boundless present (c.f. Isaiah 46:9-10; Titus 1:2))..

With these thoughts in mind, I think you will be able to understand better 2 Peter 3:8.

 

[JD731]

I think you have the wrong understanding of what is meant in the Bible by a thousand.
Psalms 50:10. 'For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.' If we can find more than a thousand hills, do the cattle not belong to God? Of course they do. 'A thousand' here means 'all that there are..

Psalm 50 is not dealing with a metaphor . In 2 Peter 3 God is giving instructions about how he thinks so we can know. He says plainly that he thinks 1000 years are AS a day. God is dealing with the time element here.

Here is the only time the word "as" is found in Ps 50
Ps 50:21 These [things] hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

The cattle on a thousand hills is not a recurring metaphor.

Deuteronomy 7:9. '....... The faithful and merciful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments.' If there were to be 1,001 generations, would God not keep mercy and covenant with those who love Him? Of course He would. A thousand here means all that there are.

No one would mistake these two passages as teaching the same thing about the 1000 year as a day metaphor. You are applying human reasoning and if you do that you will never learn the higher thoughts of God in spite of the fact he tells us how to think like him.

Psalms 90:4. 'For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past.' How about 1.001 years? Or 10,000 years? Are they not also like yesterday when it is past to God? Of course they are. God lives outside of time for He created time. Everything to Him is a boundless present (c.f. Isaiah 46:9-10; Titus 1:2))..

With these thoughts in mind, I think you will be able to understand better 2 Peter 3:8

Psalm 90:4 is the metaphor that God wants us to see. Following is the accurate way it was written;

Ps 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (the thousand years are both plural and singular)

God requires at least two witnesses to establish a doctrine. These two passages confirms that God wants us to understand that he puts one day for a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. When we are reading the scriptures that is always true no matter where you read it in the scriptures. Following is an example as Jesus is on his way to Jerusalem for the Passover feast where he will be killed. It is very early in the beginning of the 5th millennium of human history at this point.

Mr 9:1 ¶ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

I have read enough of the posts of people who post on this board regularly to know that not a single person will believe this is actual on God's part. He is showing the kingdom in a metaphor so we can all see it.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

After 6 days is after 6 thousand years in the God economy and it is six 24 hour units in man's economy and after 6000 years is the 7th thousand year and after 6 24 hour days is the 7th 24 hour day and in both cases the 7th day is the sabbath day in the Jewish economy. It is the rest of God in both cases.

A mountain for a man is a high hill that is above the rest of the landscape, but to God a mountain is a kingdom. He tells us that in other places. The shining of Jesus Christ signifies his glory. The cloud is the Holy Ghost and the voice of God is the trinity is in this kingdom interacting with men.