MMF - Biblical Principles for Church Music

[DHK]

Quote:
"Finally, there is Rom.12:2--"be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind". (this time "world" is translated from "age".) The word conform means "to fashion alike", or conform to the same pattern. So this is not talking about anything as superficial as the sound of the music (unless it is really crosses a certain line, such as acid rock). It is talking about our basic philosophy and general direction in life (the true meaning of "new song"), as well as our behavior as far as the explicit commands of God are concerned."

There is light at the end of the tunnel, Eric. Frist, music, or the sound thereof, is not superficial. It is very important, important enough that God deemed it necessary in Heaven. It is not superficial. Concerning its sound, the Bible says in 1 Cor.14:8 "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" Music gives either a certain or an uncertain sound.
And, there is an obvious line to be drawn. The question is, "Where do you draw the line?" You drew a line at acid rock. How many other types of rock cross your line? When we cross that line, we are fashioning ourselves, conforming ourselves in the same way or pattern that the world does. That is what I have been trying to say all along. Most of CCM is an imitation or a conforming to the world's music. Christian's are supposed to be different. Be not conformed to this world, rather "be conformed to the image of his son" (Rom. 8:29).
DHK

 

[Rockfort]

< “Love not the world.”
“Be not conformed to the world.”
“Whosoever is a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” >

There are far more people *of the world* than *of God*. Do you refuse to love them, as they are the very essence of that part of the world opposed to God?

< Just a few weeks before, we sold everything we had at a garage sale- >

Why didn't you GIVE it away instead of selling it? You don't have THAT much faith, apparently.

< everything, including things that meant a lot to us given at our wedding. >

Were these "things that meant a lot to [you]" *things of the world*?

< Have you ever come to the place in your life, Rockfort, where you have had to pray, even travail in prayer, that God would provide something so essential as a refrigerator? >

No, and a refridgerator is not that essential. People lived without them for thousands of years.

< It is God that provides our needs, not the world... I am still supported as a missionary, work as a missionary, just on a different mission field now. >

Specifically, by what means does God give you your food, or build your shelter, or drop that refridgerator down to you? When you say "I am still supported as a missionary," are you saying there are people or organizations of people who supply these things, or does God just make them appear?

< He still provides, even for the most basic of things. >

Like the car and computer you previously mentioned that you own and enjoy [be they worldly things or not]?

< It is very important, important enough that God deemed it necessary in Heaven. >

Cite the verse that says "God deemed it [music] necessary in Heaven."

< Most of CCM is an imitation or a conforming to the world's music. Christian's are supposed to be different. >

Besides the fact that all the music we have is "the world's music" because we live in the same world in which it exists and it is all sensed through the same means, consider the Elizabethan melody most commonly thought of as "Greensleeves." That tune has long been adapted to a popular 'Christmas' song, "What Child is This?" Is that an evil song to sing in church because it is an "imitation" of the "world's music?"-- not a "spiritual song" as first conceived, and therefore UNspritual, being 'copied' as you claim 'CCM' does.

< Christian's are supposed to be different. >

If the world wears shorts, T-shirts, business suits, jeans, and sneakers or leather shoes-- just what are Christians supposed to wear to be *different*? Does that car you mentioned owning look and drive differently from others? If so, does it meet your arbitrary line of being different enough? It is safe to assume you cannot tell a Christian from a block away because they will not look different. You have no reason to begin to believe a stranger is a Christian until he says so. If he says "Jesus is Lord," the scripture says he cannot say that except by the Holy Spirit-- no restrictions on what tone or rhythm in which he says it.

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And, there is an obvious line to be drawn. The question is, "Where do you draw the line?" You drew a line at acid rock. How many other types of rock cross your line? When we cross that line, we are fashioning ourselves, conforming ourselves in the same way or pattern that the world does. That is what I have been trying to say all along. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, remember, the line is fuzzy. I think that any type of rock with excessive noise, and all sorts of hellish moaning, screaming is not good, and unchristlike. Others may not see it that way, and I would dissagree with them and wonder how anyone could use that for Christ. Terry Watkins (av1611.org) is the most hostile critic of CCM/rock, yet on his site, the music ministry he advocates uses a country sound! Even the other critics point out "If rock&roll=sex, country is the guilty afterglow". Yet, Watkins, who blasts the "wickedness" of "wordly styles" thinks this sound is OK, and I don't see any oth the other critics getting on him about it.
But the main issue is not the noise, but rather the beat or rhythm. Milder forms of rock, as well as jazz, and everything else with a similar beat are all lumped into the same pot as the satanic acid groups, and more emphasis is actually placed on the beat and syncopation, than on the hellish noise! This is what I regard as "superficial".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Most of CCM is an imitation or a conforming to the world's music. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This I can even agree with, as far as certain things beyond the sound! in fact, before I joined this debate with the anti-CCM crowd, I was generally critical of the industry, for all the fame and fortune. Seeing how they are coming under such attack by people who think only old stuff is good, I have become more defensive of them. But I still question things I see, and wonder if some people are only "trying out" certain styles and gimmicks just because it sells. This I can agree with all of you, is worldly.
Often, you can tell it's shallow. But that doesn't mean that there can't be some who use a pop style, and it's genuine. The first Christian rap I heard sounded corny because it was just people adopting the style to try and sell to Christians from an urban background. But the lesser known ministries such as the Storytellers, the Cross Movement and a couple of others are much more genuine, as the Storytellers, rather than trying to adopt a style and squeeze a Christian message into it, are from the rough streets of the Bronx, and are communicating in the language that is common in that environment. Not only is their message real, it's scriptural. (people criticize rap as "arrogant", but it reminds me alot of the old fiery preaching that these critics hold up as as good. The only difference is the beat and that the words rhyme) But if you say it's all bad because of the beat, or all the ungodly secular raps, or the general distaste and bad association by a Conservative Christian culture that is far removed from that, then what are you leaving me with? Just classical and old hymns? What we are trying to say when we argue with you about the "world" is that just as you may associate rap with black hoodlums, and rock with rebelling white hippies, I associate the old styles with a culture that had my people in chains, and then when forced to free us, still spat on us. And their own families they overdominated, and sex was viewed as evil, even in marriage, etc. Yet, they thought this was all "biblical", and just as long as you obeyed social mores, went to "Bible preaching churches" and believed the doctrines, you were a good Christian. But this was just as much "the World" as the modern society that would later rebel against this old order. Yet, in fundamentalist writings, everything associated with that old society is seen as "of God", and eveything that differs with is is "the world". This is what we are trying to say: we are all from "the world", and anything we "bring into the church" is from the world, but in order to consider whether it is fit for use, we cannot just cite scriptures against "the world". We have to find that it truly does violate God's commands.
For an issue like this, which is based purely on a person's associations (subjective), the only real Biblical treatment of it is in scriptures like Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8, where the issues of meats offered to idols and vegetarianism (which are the same types of issues) were treated.
Maybe if we approach CCM with this in mind, we might get somwhere and make the Christian acid/thash metal bands and the commercialized leaders see our point.

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If the world wears shorts, T-shirts, business suits, jeans, and sneakers or leather shoes-- just what are Christians supposed to wear to be *different*? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suits and ties on men, and a certain style of long dresses on women. (David Cloud even recently criticized the Calvary Chapels for the pastors being dressed caually
How this (especially the suit and tie) is "different from the world", and is thus practically sacred garment is beyond me. (just think of all the ungodly business men, politicians, --like Donald Trump and Bill Clinton, media moguls, etc) I guess just because it is "traditonal" it is good, even though the ungodly leaders just happened to have held onto it. But I tend to feel Christian leaders, as authority figures should "look different" from that, since it is associated with the corrupt business and political world, and casual clothes are not.

 

[DHK]

"Specifically, by what means does God give you your food, or build your shelter, or drop that refridgerator down to you? When you say "I am still supported as a missionary," are you saying there are people or organizations of people who supply these things, or does God just make them appear?"

Yes, Rockfort, sometimes "God just makes them appear." But as I mentioned before, that is a difficult concept for many western Christians to understand because they have never lived a life of faith. They have never had to trust the Lord for anything past their own salvation. So I guess I wouldn't expect you to understand.
But surely you must believe the Scriptures: "Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." (Jer.33:3)
God answers prayer. He provides. It is as simple as that.

"Besides the fact that all the music we have is "the world's music" because we live in the same world in which it exists and it is all sensed through the same means,"

--You're still dodging the true meaning of those verses (Rom.12:2; 1John 2:15,16; James 4:4), are you not? Give me your understanding of these verses, and then try and tell me truthfully and honestly that "all the music we have is ?the world's music.'"
When David used his harp to cast the demon out of Saul, was it the world's music that he used? Is Satan divided against himself? Would David use the music of "the god of this world" to ease Saul's soul and cast out the demon?
2Cor.10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We are in a spiritual battle. Every imagination, high thing (even sound or music) must be brought into captivity, and every thought (including the thoughts generated by music) to the obedience of Jesus Christ. ALL MUSIC IS NOT WORLDLY MUSIC. We are in a spiritual battle. There is some music that can help you win that battle, and some music that will defeat you. The choice is yours.

The song writer put it this way:
I have decided to follow Jesus. I have decided to follow Jesus. I have decided to follow Jesus.
No turning back. No turning back.
The cross before me, the world behind me. The cross before me, the world behind me...
No turning back. No turning back.

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62)
Put your eyes on Jesus. Leave the world behind. The closer you are to the Lord, and the farther you are from the world, the less of an issue CCM will be to you.
DHK

 

[Daniel]

Bravo, DHK, to that final point! The closer you are to God the less you want the rot of this world, most particularly the entertainment geared to the flesh. But, no doubt, you've heard of a brick wall? Keep, trying, though, brother!

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; Yes, Rockfort, sometimes "God just makes them appear." &gt;

So now you are claiming telekenesis! If you really think you have perceived such a thing as God *just making them appear*, I think you're either psychotic or on hallucinogens.

&lt; When David used his harp to cast the demon out of Saul, was it the world's music that he used? &gt;

The strings he plucked were worldly strings producing worldly sound waves perceived by the vibrations on worldly eardrums.

&lt; ALL MUSIC IS NOT WORLDLY MUSIC &gt;

Then cause me to hear, or sense, some UNworldly music right now. If you think God will make things appear out of thin air for you, He should do this simple thing if your analysis of 2 worlds is correct.

&lt; The song writer put it this way:
I have decided to follow Jesus. I have decided to follow Jesus. I have decided to follow Jesus.
No turning back. No turning back.
The cross before me, the world behind me. The cross before me, the world behind me...
No turning back. No turning back. &gt;

Great lyrics I have sung many times. But do you condemn these same lyrics if played and sung in a way which doesn't tickle your whimsy?

&lt; The closer you are to the Lord, and the farther you are from the world, the less of an issue CCM will be to you. &gt;

There seem to be few people for whom it is a greater *issue* than for you.

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The strings he plucked were worldly strings producing worldly sound waves perceived by the vibrations on worldly eardrums.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rockfort, I basically agree with what you're trying to say, but we're getting hung up on the word "wordly". You're suggesting it is a completely neutral term for our physical makeup. But it is true that in Scripture it represents something negative (as the critics are here using it)-- namely this present evil age, plus the fallen state of the physical cosmos incuding people with our sins that characterizes it. (See my discussion of the three passages and two meanings of "world" a few posts back; now on the prior page). The issue is SIN, not physical matter
So DHK and the critics are trying to associate CCM with sin (bad), not simply the physical world (neutral). Where they're wrong is in the poor biblical evidence that all styles with a certain beat are sinful, and thus indelibly connected with the fallen "world" [while only traditional styles are "unworldly" or "spiritual"]. Then our point comes through, that the traditional styles are from the world (sinful cultures of people, including "Conservative Christian" ones!) as well, and that Christ can redeeem things of the world. This is the answer to this back and forth wrangling over "the world".

 

[Daniel]

Thanks, Eric! I was wondering if Rockfort and DHK were lost in that quagmire! I was hoping to see DHK define his "worldly" away from the one Rockfort was trying to use. The two definitions weren't even related---the old "apples to oranges" comparison thing! Thanks for the light! (BTW--this argument is going no where fast! I would love to jump back in on the original topic, but have had no open door so far...here's hoping...)

 

[DHK]

"And be not conformed to this world."
--Romans 12:2

If a Christian can by possibility be saved while he conforms to this world, at any rate it must be so
as by fire. Such a bare salvation is almost as much to be dreaded as desired. Reader, would you wish to leave this world in the darkness of a desponding death bed, and enter heaven as a shipwrecked mariner climbs the rocks of his native country? then be worldly; be mixed up with Mammonites, and refuse to go without the camp bearing Christ's reproach. But would you have a heaven below as well as a heaven above? Would you comprehend with all saints what are the heights and depths, and know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge? Would you receive an abundant entrance into the joy of your Lord? Then come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Would you attain the full assurance of faith? you cannot gain it while you commune with sinners. Would you flame with vehement love? your love will be damped by the drenchings of godless society. You cannot become a great Christian--you may be a babe in grace, but you never can be a perfect man in Christ Jesus while you yield yourself to the worldly maxims and modes of business of men of the world. It is ill for an heir of heaven to be a great friend with the heirs of hell. It has a bad look when a courtier is too intimate with his king's enemies. Even small inconsistencies are dangerous. Little thorns make great blisters, little moths destroy fine garments, and little frivolities and little rogueries will rob religion of a thousand joys. O professor, too little separated from sinners, you know not what you lose by your conformity to the world. It cuts the tendons of your strength, and makes you creep where you ought to run. Then, for your own comfort's sake, and for the sake of your growth in grace, if you be a Christian, be a Christian, and be a marked and distinct one. SPURGEON

If, by the music that you listen to, by the speech that you use, and by the very conduct of your life, you were accused in a court of law of being a Christian, would the jury find you guilty?

 

[War_Eagle]

DHK,

If someone's judging my Christianity by the music I listen to, then he's misunderstood the point of Christianity.

 

[DHK]

If someone's judging my Christianity by the music I listen to, then he's misunderstood the point of Christianity.

The point of Christianity is not only to receive Christ as Saviour, but have a personal relationship with Him, and allow Him to change your life on a daily basis, so that every day you grow closer to Him, and become more like Him. The Christian life is not stagnant, it is vibrant; a vibrant living, holy walk with Him. We call this sanctification. Yes, the world will judge you by your music, and rightly so. And if you haven’t left that old ungodly style of music that you used to listen to in your unsaved days; that music that the world still listens to, they will say what’s the difference between him and us—there is none!!!
Most Christians have no concept of the meaning of Phil.1:29. Look this verse up. How does it apply to your life?
DHK

 

[War_Eagle]

DHK,

Again, if a non-Christian says, "what's the difference between him and us - there is none", based on preferred musical style, then he has misunderstood the entire point of Christianity.

Most of my friends are non-Christians, including four of the members of my band. (I know I'll get hammered for saying that here but that's another subject for another day.)

They know I'm a Christian and they know where I stand on many issues.

Several of them have told me that they do see a difference in me that comes from my realationship with Christ and some have come to me for help with all sorts of crises because they know that I genuinely care about them and that I'll always treat them with respect and compassion. A couple of them have told me that other Christians have made them feel like they're just another notch in a Bible.

Probably the same Christians who lectured them about the "evils" of rock and roll.

God has even allowed me to be a tool in leading some of them to Christ.

It's funny that the only people who seem to care about musical styles are some people here on Baptistboard and not non-Christians like you said.

In all my dealings with non-Christians, the issue of musical styles has never come up.

That's probably our fault, though. We must have spent too much time talking about grace and forgiveness.

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: War_Eagle ]

 

[Eric B]

Part of the problem in this phase of the argument, is that there are many different mindsets among the unsaved. We tend to lump them all in the same pot, but they are different from one another, and will think different about us, and be reached differently. Some may just hear the same style of music with Christian words. These people may not be that antagonistic to Christianity, so they won't care. It's still the same old rock they love and enjoy, and they may not listen to the words anyway. The same type of person would accept the traditional/classical sound if that were what they liked (remember, these styles were once popular and contemporary, and no, everyone in the society was not saved back then)
Some who are antagonistic to the faith will see it as different-- the Christian references and words about Christ and the Bible will stick out, along with the lack of sex, drugs, cursing, etc. and it will be the "same old religious stuff" to them. This is how I saw it when I was unsaved. Some may even see it as corny, and a cheap attempt to woo them into our belief system. (I saw it as that too). Then there is the much cited article "New Lyrics for the Devil's Music", which reflects the secular media's assumption that all Christians are "supposed" to be against everything modern, (this is what they've always called the music) and surprise that the church is actually changing, even if they may not be that impressed.
But if God begins leading them, the music might help them in the transition to faith. So as with all the other issues, we cannot generalize too much. Some people will see us as wordly no matter what we do. After all, we are all people in the world (What I guess Rockfort was trying to say), and even though Christians often act as though we're "up there" above everyone, they see all our sins regardless, so the whole issue of "different" people with "different" music is moot. The Bible speaks of "difference", but these people can't comprehend it, because it is spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14). For this reason both approaches of trying to avoid styles to look "different", OR the depending on of the use of those styles as our means of winning people are misguided.
We are to depend on God to lead us in winning people. We are not to try to depend on devices or our own making, whether old styles or new. Then, they may see something in us, and that a wall has come down in our communication. They all know traditional society was not heaven, so it's about time Christians stop pretending it was. And they'll see that the modern ways need correction as well

 

[DHK]

"Most of my friends are non-Christians, including four of the members of my band."
--That is exactly your problem: the friends and the company that you keep. They will either lift you up spiritually or drag you down. You are not in Christian band at all, not if four members are not saved! No wonder you have a hard time telling the difference between worldly music and that which is spiritual. What does the Bible say:
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
2 Cor.6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

We don't go into the bars to witness to the drunks. I don't have to get high on drugs to witness to an addict. Neither do I have to be involved in the CCM movement, or any secular rock group (as you are), to be understood by them.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

The world will know that we are Christians by our love for the brethren, not for the world.
DHK

 

[Daniel]

Bravo, DHK!

 

[War_Eagle]

DHK,

When did I ever say that I was in a Christian band? At the same time, I don't believe it's a "secular" band. "Secular" implies that God is not involved. Because I and piano/keyboard/accordion player, tom Owensby, are Christians, God is very much involved. If that's a problem for you, then I don't know what to tell you. I just think it's funny that you think you can "diagnose" us by nothing more than a few sentences over the internet from someone you've never met, then it's kind of hard to take you seriously.

It's not that I don't know what "worldly" music is, it's just that I don;t buy your definition of it.

Is it ever appropriate to use music to tell a story? Is it ever appropriate to use music to convey an idea or a feeling or an emotion?

Why is it wrong for me to write a song to tell my wife that I love her? Why is it wrong to use music to speak about social injustice?

"The world will know we are Christians by our love for the bretheren, not the world."

Interesting. I was attacked three times in a row by your buddy Daniel (with all of his "education and experience") and I'm being judged unfairly by you. Exactly when does all of this love of yours start?

So are you saying that we shouldn't show love to sinners? If that's true, then why did Jesus spend so much time with sinners? He was very loving in His interaction with them.

Thank God that the person who led me to Christ didn't listen to your advice.

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: War_Eagle ]

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: War_Eagle ]

 

[Daniel]

War Eagle...I am so sorry you felt attacked by me. I did not have that as an intent. I was just responding to some of the ways you were expressing yourself. Rather than having a civil "discussion," things had degenerated into a foolish back-and-forth "one-upping" of each other. I was just as guilty. God convicted me that I was being foolish. That's why I made an appeal for that stuff to stop. We must get away from personal attacks and get back to the issue at hand--Biblical Principles for Church Music, not personal opinions about Church Music. Let's keep the discussion going--civilly! It's still possible if we ALL try!

 

[DHK]

War_Eagle,
"So are you saying that we shouldn't show love to sinners? If that's true, then why did Jesus spend so much time with sinners? He was very loving in His interaction with them."

Not at all! I spend time going out into the "highways and biways," that is going from door to door witnessing to the lost. I evangelize, preach, teach, witness, counsel, spend time in people's homes, spend time on the telephone--reaching out to the lost. Yes we ought to have a concern for sinners.
"The world will know we are Christians by our love for the bretheren, not the world."
That statement is almost word for word from the Bible.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
It is God your disagreeing with, not me. I'm just quoting His Word.
Agreed, there are many uses for music: love songs, children's stories, etc. But that's not what this forum is about. The title is "Biblical Principles for Church Music."
"Why is it wrong for me to write a song to tell my wife that I love her?" It isn't. It would just be entirely inappropriate to sing about her as a congregational hymn, and it would not be very edifying for the believers.
Eph.5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
DHK

 

[Daniel]

TWO WORDS TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN MAKING DECISIONS ON BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES FOR CHURCH MUSIC: APPROPRIATENESS (SEE DHK POST) AND ASSOCIATION (eg. having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness; be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers; etc.) FOOD FOR THOUGHT.....

[ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]