MMF - Biblical Principles for Church Music

[DHK]

In Hinduism they believe in Brahma--the Creator.
In Shintoism they believe in Amaterasu--their chief god/goddess.
In Zorastrianism they believe in Ahura-Mazda as Lord
In Islam they believe in Allah as the only one supreme God.
In Sikhism "Satnam" is the true one, absolute and sovereign.

"Lord Of all creation
Of water, earth, and sky"
---Say what you will, but that description can fit any one of those religions, and many more considering all the false cults we have, each with their own version of "God."

Look at at the typical hymn book:
"Free from the law, O happy condition, Jeus hath bled, and there is remission;
Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall, Grace hath redeemed us once for all.
Once for, O sinner receive it; Once for all, O brother, believe it;
Cling to the cross, the burden will fall, Christ hath redeemed us once for all."

Alas, and did my Saviour bleed? And did my Sovreign die?
Would he devote that sacred head for such a worm as I?
At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light, And the burden of my heart rolled away,
It was there by faith I received my sight, And now I am happy all the day!
Well might the sun in darkness hide, And shut his glories in,
When Christ, the mighty Maker, died For man the creature's sin.

You do not have to guess at what the above two hymns are talking about or about Whom they are talking about. "Christ, the mighty Maker, died for man the creature's sin." Pretty clear, isn't it.

 

[Psalm145 3]

Here is a radio program I heard on Fri. July 13. It is called Crosstalk on the VCY network. This program had brother David Cloud talking about CCM and the neutrality of music. You will need Windows Media Player to here this program. It is about one hour.

If anyone is interested, click this link.
Crosstalk July 13, 2001 David Cloud- CCM

 

[MagicDar]

DHK, Sorry but I feel you are trying to justify your point with a great song that I personally see God of scriptures all thru. If I were to have heard this song from Third Day I would have known exactly who they are talking about, perhaps that is because I do appreciate the nature and creation of God and I see God all thru it. It doesn't float with me.

-dar

 

[John Wells]

Dear Psalm,

David Cloud has a problem with everyone and every ministry except himself and his own!

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
"Lord Of all creation
Of water, earth, and sky"
---Say what you will, but that description can fit any one of those religions, and many more considering all the false cults we have, each with their own version of "God."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So we don't admit that our God is the Lord of all creation because other religions have gods that created things too? How absurd! My God IS the Lord of all creation! He is the Lord of the water the earth and the sky! I will praise his name in song, in Spirit and in witness to all that he has done!

Here is another song by the same group.

City On A Hill
Lyrics by Mac Powell / Music by Third Day

You are the light of the world
A city on a hill cannot be hidden
Shine your light before all men
That they might see your works and then
Praise your Father up in Heaven

A city on a hill cannot be hidden
Standing tall before all men
To show the things that it's been given
And everything that it can give
Just like that city on a hillside
We got a light that's deep within us
No, don't keep it to yourself
Just remember how you felt
When you first gave your life to Jesus

And I now that our salvation isn't based on the things we do
But it's only given by the grace of God
By the sacrifice of Jesus, and if we really did believe
We were born to share this message with someone


Any problems with this one?

~Lorelei

 

[DHK]

There is nothing wrong as far as the lyrics are concerned that I can see, Lorelei. The first part refers to some Scripture in Matthew 5 about being a light, and the very last part refers to believing in the sacrifice of Jesus. At least this song mentions the name of Jesus.
Since I don't listen to CCM, I don't have a clue about the style or type of music that goes with the lyrics, so I cannot make a comment about that, except to say that I believe that the type of music being played is also very important.
DHK

 

[MagicDar]

DHK, I think its totally messed up to think every christian song has to have God's name or Jesus's name or the name of the Lord in it or it's not considered a christian song??

The most important thing about the music with it is that the person listening to it enjoys it....simply put. -dar

 

[Daniel]

For days I have silently watched the discussions between DHK and MagicDar. Now I can no longer remain silent. MagicDar pushed me over the edge tonight. Her final post puts her at the center of the universe. I'm sorry, the test of what is good or bad or right or wrong is not whether a person likes or enjoys something, it is the infallible principles of the Word of God. (Trust me, I'm not speaking off the top of my head. I've read her posts in the teen section and see the same thing. My 14 year old daughter can't get over some of the things she says there!) Dar, I'm not attacking you. I am the guy that has stood at the head of the line to try to bring this thread back into line with the scriptures and away from personal attacks. I am simply urging you to get out of the way and get back to the Bible. Your warm/fuzzy expressions are NOT the test of anything in Christianity. Sola Scriptura. Yes, music is subjective, but the Biblical principles DHK has articulated have been sound and correct through and through. I haven't been a minister of music, music teacher and Christian music performer for 18 years and not seen where your thinking heads. Trust me, Dar, the end result is not good. Please get away from your subjective, fuzzy thinking. Listen to DHK, rlvaughn, Pslam 145 3 and others who are trying to reason with you. Please!

[ July 14, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

 

[Eric B]

After Scott McClare (forgot his BB tag) mentioned Steve Miller's Contemporary Christian Music Debate I went and ordered it, and i finally came yesterday. It is a greet treatment of the issue, and bears the professionalism that I can admit my site lacks, plus is less confrontational, but addresses the same points. HE doesn't say "music is neutral" or that you can do anything you want, but is truly balanced.
Ayway, on this subject he points out <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Many inspired Psalms are by no means "theologically rich". Psalms 70 is simply a cry to God for help. Psalm 150 is an exhortation to praise God in various places and various ways. Critics should take care lest they find themselves in the uncomfortable position of having to explain how "And Can It Be" in all its theological profundity is superior to much of the inspired Psalter.
If a song were written solely about how great it is when people get along with each other, would we consider this shallow? If so, we would demean Psalm 133. "Theologically rich" as a standard has the appearance of spiritual wisdom, but it is actually an attempt to be more spiritual than the Bible<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also, I had been following some of Aaron's links and came back across Godwin, Watkins, Bearsley (on music) and others. I hadn't read many of them for a while, so forgt the extent of their harshness. Cloud is not even quite as bad as them, and Fisher is civil compared to many of them. Their rhetoric is totally ridiculous. Yes, they may think "C-rock" is wrong, but they accuse the people of "wickedness", "rebellion", being "false prophets", "deceivers", etc. They accuse people who do not have their convictions practically of being devoid of the Holy Spirit, since this is all so "clearly wrong according to Scripture". They are so right, and dismiss all responcses as trying to "justify wickedness". There is no reasoning with them, so why do they bother preaching at everyone? Could it be to puff themselves up? Godwin seems to get some satisfation at the idea of his teaching driving people to emotional cycles of trauma (anger, confusion, denial, delusion, rebellion --See http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/godwin/jefchap1.shtml)
I still don't know why we look to these people as sound biblical authorities.

Welljs-- Cloud does seem to get along with Godwin, Watkins and Beardsley. While BDM (Rick Miesel) criticizes KJV onlyism (Which Cloud and the others are), Beardsley, who is apart of BDM has a KJV-only statement. But with their emphasis on dividing over the last doctrinal disagreement, I wonder how they overlook the KJV issue.

 

[DHK]

"The most important thing about the music with it is that the person listening to it enjoys it....simply put."-dar
This is the most important characteristic for you in order for music to be judged good, godly, spiritual music??

 

[MagicDar]

I feel it is best to back off from this subject. It is not important to me who disagrees or agrees with me on these things, the fact of the matter is that I believe I totally hold God's biblical standards on music. Daniel if you and or your daughter were to read previous posts you would have seen that I too agree with the biblical principles DHK had mentioned for music, and that those principles lie in the lyrical content. I believe its the music end of it that is left up to taste and that I totally do not believe the bible has anything to say about.

I want to back away from this particular subject because its becoming another well beaten horse and nothing is getting accomplished, I don't wish to change anyone, and I can tell you now that no one is going to change what God has placed in my life.

So to end my part of this,,,,I want to end on a friendly note,,,,,DHK, God bless you and to others on this particular thread many Blessings to you as well as you search for truth on this matter. -dar

 

[Daniel]

Dar...thanks you for your graciousness in this last post. You know as well as anyone that music (and the Bible translation issue) causes the most reaction within Biblical circles. This thread as well as the one called contemporary music at church has illustrated this principle. It has been no one's desire to hurt anyone in these posts; we have simply wanted to open people's minds to other people's viewpoints. I have respectfully read the posts on CCM from those that defend its use. I may greatly disagree from a Biblical POV, but I have recognized the differences that exist amongst Christians on this matter. May God's spirit help each of us to be fully persuaded in our minds about what we believe God has to say on this topic as well as many others that cross the path of the modern-day Christian...So, Dar, thanks again for your graceful exit. I hope that you will still read, listen and study. We're never too old to change...on another note: if anyone wants to pick up this issue from a Biblical POV, let's go....

 

[Eric B]

On the BaptistFire board, there was an old "contemporary vs Traditional music thread that had seem to have dies, yet someone just yesterday posted a link to this interesting Dallas News article:
http://www.dallasnews.com/religion/417701_musicone_14rel.html
It consists of 3 people: one takes the traditional only position, one defends contemporary, and another sidelines the whole styles issue, favoring the singing of Scripture. Each writer starts one discussio, and the other two respond (links two the other two are in the upper right)

I just wanted to point out that Johansen may be right that there is too much emphasis on entertainment, but as with other CCM criticisms, there is too much conjectural assumption that the old is always better ("delayed gratification"), ignoring that the pre-modern age was just as sinful as today's pop-culture, only it was manifested differently. In his book (which was the other text beside Fisher in the class I had years ago) he advocates asceticism and monasticism, even though these are equally false, paganized extremes that are condemned in scripture (even though they would later infiltrate the Church)

 

[hugo]

DHK,

What's wrong with liking a certain style of music based on whether or not
it brings me pleasure? Is music supposed to be disagreeable to be spiritual?

All music is worldly, just as all food is worldly. It is created by human beings using instruments of this world. I enjoy good music just as I enjoy good food. Is doing either sinful?

You have talked in this thread about worldly music as if there is a kind of music which is not of this world. Name a style or kind of music which did not originate on this world. Perhaps you could also do me a favor and name certain sounds or instruments which are not of this world.

praise the Lord with the drum and dance (Ps 150)
hugo

 

[DHK]

Ver. 3. The "psaltery" was a ten stringed instrument. It is constantly mentioned with the "harp." The psaltery was struck with a plectrum, the harp more gently with the fingers. Psaltery and harp speak to us in figure of "law and gospel." --Thomas Le Blanc. (from Spurgeon's Treasury of David: Psalm 150:3)
I do not know what drum you are talking about.

Quote:
"What's wrong with liking a certain style of music based on whether or not
it brings me pleasure? Is music supposed to be disagreeable to be spiritual?
All music is worldly, just as all food is worldly. It is created by human beings using instruments of this world. I enjoy good music just as I enjoy good food. Is doing either sinful?"

What kind of logic can we draw from this? All music is worldly, and all food is worldly. Jesus listened to some music and also ate food. Therefore Jesus was worldly. The Bible says: Love not the world. Are therefore commanded not to love Jesus?
We are not talking about food--that which is a basic essential to keep one alive. If you don't eat you don't live. That is not the case with music. Food, unlike music does not affect one's morality, unless you start talking about the sins of drunkeness, over-indulgence in anything. But that is not the case here.
Music, with or without lyrics, affects the emotional and spiritual well-being of a person. There is worldly music and spiritual music. I have posted these Scriptures before; I will do it again:

1 John 2:15,16:
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The Word of God has much to say about "the world:" Love not, Be not conformed, etc. There is obviously good and bad music, worldly and spiritual music.
Ephesians 5:19:
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing
one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Notice in both Eph. 5:19 and in Col. 3:16, the term "spiritual songs." By the very usage of the term "spiritual," Paul indicates that there must be unspiritual music, that is worldly music.
In the most recent posts, we have been discussing primarily content or lyrics. In other posts I have referred to the effect of the style of music on individuals. Here are some examples.
1. What was the style of music that David used when Saul's heart was quieted, and the demonic spirit left him? Was it rock? CCM? What would you compare it to? Remember David was a skilled musician on the harp.
2. What was the style of music used that caused the nation of Israel to dance naked around a golden calf? Was it the same as David's? Perhaps a little bit more similar to rock?
3. Have you ever heard of "Woodstock?" An event in Bethel, New York, that drew over 500,000 young people and about 30 rock bands together for three days of nothing but "doing your own thing."
That included drugs, sex, protests, and of course a lot of loud raucous "worldly" rock music. It was rebellious, and was a primary cause of rebellion. I am sure that had the musicians all been playing harps and violins, things would not have gotten out of hand like it did. I am not saying that the music was the only factor here, but it was one of the major contributing factors to the rebellious spirit of the time.

How do you sing with grace? How do you make melody in your heart to the Lord, when it is the beat that overpowers every other aspect of the song? What truly constitutes a "hymn?" Is your music spiritual or worldly? of the spirit, or of the flesh? You cannot serve two masters. There are definite styles of music that are wrong, fleshly, worldly. And the Word says "Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God?" Whose friend are you?

DHK

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; Notice in both Eph. 5:19 and in Col. 3:16, the term "spiritual songs." By the very usage of the term "spiritual," Paul indicates that there must be unspiritual music, that is worldly music. &gt;

Let us use your own reasoning here... "By the very usage of the term "spiritual," Paul indicates that there must be unspiritual music, that is worldly music." So, any music not SPIRITUAL is UNspiritual, meaning worldly? What Paul said in both these passages is speak to "one another in songs AND hymns AND spiritual songs..." 3 specifics, but only one is *spritual songs*--then by your logic the other 2 are UNspiritual music, "that is, worldly music," as you stated.

&lt; Here are some examples.
1. What was the style of music that David used when Saul's heart was quieted, and the demonic spirit left him? Was it rock? CCM? What would you compare it to? Remember David was a skilled musician on the harp. 2. What was the style of music used that caused the nation of Israel to dance naked around a golden calf? Was it the same as David's? Perhaps a little bit more similar to rock? &gt;

It could have been the same as David's tune, for all we know. You can blather all this wishful thinking you will, but when you assume a fact not in evidence it should be regarded as incompetent. This is really a wild idea that styles of music known only in recent times must have been around to produce the sins of masses of people centuries ago!

&lt; 3. Have you ever heard of "Woodstock?" &gt;

Yeah, Snoopy's little bird friend?

&lt; An event in Bethel, New York, that drew over 500,000 young people and about 30 rock bands together for three days of nothing but "doing your own thing."
That included drugs, sex, protests, and of course a lot of loud raucous "worldly" rock music. It was rebellious, and was a primary cause of rebellion. &gt;

Oh yeah, that. We can be sure, of course, that the Boston Tea Party, the 'shot heard round the world' at Lexington, the French Revolution, the Bolsheveik assault, Bolivar's campaign.... used "worldly rock" music to tickle those 'rebellious' motives.

&lt; Is your music spiritual or worldly? of the spirit, or of the flesh? &gt;

I have never heard any music anywhere which was not played on a natural-- not supernatural-- instrument, and which was not made audible to me by vibrating my *fleshly* eardrums. David's "23rd Psalm," Newton's "Amazing Grace," and Rambo's "We Shall Behold Him" are all played and heard by worldly/fleshly means.

 

[hugo]

CHK,

The timbrel, I believe, was a drumlike instrument.

Music of itself is not spiritual. It is the words that communicate spiritual ideas.

You are correct, I believe, in saying that music effects the emotions, which in turn effect what we do. If there is a downside to CCM it is that there is excessive emotionalism, but that is a part of our culture and a part of who we are. Our culture has become more emotional and less rational and detached--for better or worse. It approaches what I believe was the cultural norm of the Mideast. The Jews danced in their celebrations and they had music to do it by.

Old time music lends itself more to contemplation. CCM lends itself more to excitation. Neither one is inherently spiritual are they? It takes context and words to establish the spirituality or worldliness of a song. I can take any hymn music and put salacious words to it and use it in an orgy. The spiritual song becomes a worldly song by context and words.

Question. Which of our human emotions cannot be used to glorify God (none)? The music that incites those emotions is ungodly.

Viva Voce rocks
hugo

 

[DHK]

Rockfort:
Your logic needs no comment--just nonsensical.
Read Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 again, look up the words "psalms," "Hymns," and "spiritual songs" in the original languages if you have to, but at least in a good dictionary. I am sure that you will come to the conclustion that all three of these terms refer to spiritual, and not godless, "worldly" music.
Please try to make some sense in your posts without first arrogantly "blathering" and dismissing what I have written without an 'intelligent' answer.
Instead of talking about "wishful thinking," incompetent evidence," and "wild ideas," just simply answer the question at hand: Was David's music, that he played before Saul, more like Rock? CCM? or what? You describe David's music to me Rockfort, as he played before Saul.
Your ignorance of events such as Woodstock ("Yeah, Snoopy's little bird friend?"), is telling. If you don't know what happened admit it--don't deny it and then be sarcastic about it. You can't deny the facts of history.
I'll ask the same question again Rockfort: Is your music spiritual or worldly? of the spirit, or of the flesh?
Reread my prior post. This time read the Scripture also. In case you miss it here is one verse:
"LOVE NOT THE WORLD." I guess that includes its music too, doesn't it?

DHK

 

[DHK]

Quote:
"Old time music lends itself more to contemplation. CCM lends itself more to excitation. Neither one is inherently spiritual are they?"
--With which music in the background am I more likely to read my Bible, or meditate on my Bible. You answered your own question. An agitated mind ("excitation") does not help one grow spiritually.

 

[Rockfort]

I will take you on in a test of logic any time, K--&gt; Boolean Algebra, tautologies, proving limits, LaPlace transforms, or anything that involves pure logic.

YOu had pointd out the term "SPIRITUAL songs" in the passages indicated, and said songs not so labeled were UNspiritual. You qualified nothing about any other terms involved, and you said music is "spiritual" or "unspritual." Furthermore-- using your own suggestion, a compilation of dictionary definitions say "psalm--" or "psalmos--" is a song sung to a harp, akin to verb, "psallein--" to twitch; play. So, if you are claiming any song sung to a twitched harp is "spritual," that shows the fallacy of your reasoning. "Hymn" is a song *in honor of* someone or something, not necessarily Deity...the "Marine's Hymn," for example, is sung in honor of that branch of the service. So if you need confirmation that psalms and hymns are natural and "worldly," (besides the fact that they are played physically on physical instruments), it is there. A psalm is played in the natural world with a physical stringed instrument, whether you like that fact or not. And it is detected by vibrations on one's eardrum, a part of the natural physical world.

&lt; Was David's music, that he played before Saul, more like Rock? CCM? or what? You describe David's music to me Rockfort, as he played before Saul. &gt;

I was not there. Were you? Neither of us knows how David's music in that incident sounded.

&lt; Your ignorance of events such as Woodstock ("Yeah, Snoopy's little bird friend?"), is telling. If you don't know what happened admit it--don't deny it and then be sarcastic about it. &gt;

LOL I though that crack might be on your level, but evidently is beyond the capacity of your thought processes. Sure I know about Woodstock and the mudholes and flagrant sex, et al. Is it the music, not the sex and drugs, you object to?

&lt; I'll ask the same question again Rockfort: Is your music spiritual or worldly? of the spirit, or of the flesh? &gt;

I have never heard any music which was not sensed by vibrations on my physical eardrums. Did you? If you have a spritual nonphysical instrument that plays music which you sense by nonphysical means, then tell us all about it.

&lt; "LOVE NOT THE WORLD." &gt;

Is that only for God to do..."For God so loved the world..." (John 3:16)?
&lt; I guess that includes its music too, doesn't it?&gt;

Actually, I am very largely a music hater. It is probably less than 1 % of all types of music I like.