MMF - Biblical Principles for Church Music

[DHK]

Magicdar
Feeling and truth don't necessarily go together. In fact, most times they do not. Can Satan put a verse of Scripture in your mind? Can Satan arrange certain circumstances of your life? Can Satan give you a false sense of peace? The answer to all three of those questions is yes, yet that is precisely how most people "feel" they have discovered the will of God for their lives. Perhaps you heard of the prayer of a girl that she wrote down on her wedding day:
"Dear God. I can hardly believe that this is my wedding day. I know I haven't been able to spend much time with You lately, with all the rush of getting ready for today, and I'm sorry. I guess, too, that I feel a little guilty when I try to pray about all this, since Larry still isn't a Christian. But oh, Father, I love him so much, what else can I do? I just couldn't give him up. Oh, You must save him, some was, somehow. You know how much I've prayed for him, and the way we've discussed the gospel together. I've tried not to appear too religious, I know, but that's because I didn't want to scare him off. Yet he isn't antagonistic and I can't understand why he hasn't responded. Oh, if he only were a Christian.
Dear Father, please bless our marriage. I don't want to disobey You, but I do love him and I want to be his wife, so please be with us and please don't spoil my wedding day."
That sounds like a sincere, earnest prayer, does it not? But if it is stripped of its fine, pious language it is really saying something like this:
"Dear Father, I don't want to disobey You, but I must have my own way at all costs. For I love what You do not love, and I want what You do not want. So please be a good God and deny Yourself, and move off Your throne, and let me take over. If You don't like this, then all I ask is that You bite Your tongue and say nothing or do nothing that will spoil my plans, but let me enjoy myself."

I think that story tells volumes.

Eric B:
"You're making the MUSIC all bu itself the cause of all the sin,"

No, I have already said that man is responsible for his own sin and the choices that he makes. However, the type of music that he listens to may influence him for good or evil.

"But then this can be said of calling only the traditional stuff "hymns, psalms, spiritual songs" as well.

I hardly think so. The Psalms taken straight out of the Word of God teach just a bit more than "Christian values." They happen to be the very words of God. Much of our hymns are steeped in theological teaching, (ex. The average believer has no idea that "Joy to the World" is a hymn teaching of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in all His glory, not of His birth). Spiritual songs are just that--spiritual--not carnal. CCM imitates the world, and does everything in its power to be carnal. It is a carnal form of music. It appeals to the flesh.

Wellsjs
"Picture yourself, if you will, in the dark ages in a monastery where Druid-like chants were the only form of musical expression. If you banged out your favorite hymn on a piano and sang along, they would more than likely burn you at the stake. Hmmmm . . . sounds like what you'd like to do to the CCM folks!"

Sounds like what I'd like to do to CCM music; it's not the people I have a problem with--just the music.
Acts 19:19,20: "Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed."
I wonder if the "curious arts" included cd's and tapes of CCM music?
DHK

 

[Rockfort]

< Perhaps you heard of the prayer of a girl that she wrote down on her wedding day:
"Dear God. I can hardly believe that this is my wedding day. I know I haven't been able to spend much time with You lately, with all the rush of getting ready for today,.... I don't want to disobey You, but I do love him and I want to be his wife, so please be with us and please don't spoil my wedding day." >

DHK's prayer:
Dear God, I can hardly believe you have given me the honor in these last days of straightening all these idiotic wordly people out. I know your word does not define music styles and condemn those that accentuate the second and forth beats, or which sound too much like pop or country or jazz, or any other type which was not known to exist when you inspired your writers to record your words. But I know you would not have given me the likes and dislikes for music that I have unless that is absolutely positively what you want the world to keep, and to annihalite all the rest of it. I also know it is possible for a song to proclaim the Lordship of your son Jesus and still come from another source than the Holy Spirit-- I Corinthians 12:3 notwithstanding here, because I just don't like the way some people express it; and that, of course, is why you gave me the preferences I have-- to show the world exactly what YOU want, which has to be what I want. I thank you for having me to realize-- unlike so many who think they are Christians-- that we must change people from without, and have them act as I want Christians to act; instead of you changing them from within to manifest Christ according to the understanding and the gifts and talents you gave them. Thank you for having me to understand and teach these kooks that Paul must have been wrong when he said "I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some" (I Corinthians 9:22). Yes, Lord, help me in this vital ministry to destroy anything that looks, sounds, or smells worldly. I wonder why you didn't give Martin Luther this same insight and did not stop him from writing "A Mighty Fortress" based on that popular barroom melody. Oh well, I would do everything I could to condemn that tune if it were not already long out of hand. I just thank you that somebody-- me-- knows exactly what you want people to do, which, of course, is what I want them to do also. We are one. Thank you that I am not as other men."

 

[MagicDar]

DHK, so what you are saying is this, you can pray with a sincere heart and ask God for wisdom and truth and instead Satan will give you a false peace and wisdom while God does nothing. The bible says, if you ask you shall recieve. I asked God for wisdom and truth and I believe (different from feel) that God did just that and presented me with truth. You may not agree with what God presented me but you may still have your own taste and that is fine. -dar

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Eric B:
"You're making the MUSIC all bu itself the cause of all the sin,"

No, I have already said that man is responsible for his own sin and the choices that he makes. However, the type of music that he listens to may influence him for good or evil.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but those examples you gave to prove the point that it's rock that caused those sins suggests precisely that. It may influence him, as you said, but I think in those cases there was alot more factors than just the music, yet you're saying "see... look what these people did! That proves that the music is bad, because the music caused it. (and therefore that type of music can't ever be used for anything good). Once again, this is way overgeneralized, but this kind of reasoning is the entire basis of this whole argument.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I hardly think so. The Psalms taken straight out of the Word of God teach just a bit more than "Christian values." They happen to be the very words of God. Much of our hymns are steeped in theological teaching, (ex. The average believer has no idea that "Joy to the World" is a hymn teaching of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in all His glory, not of His birth). Spiritual songs are just that--spiritual--not carnal. CCM imitates the world, and does everything in its power to be carnal. It is a carnal form of music. It appeals to the flesh. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So some CCM songs are Psalms too ("Thy Word"), and they can also have deep theological teaching. And some old hymns are now being recognized as just teaching "Christian virtues", and otherwise being shallow, and even the forerunner of today's CCM. My point was that whatever content you will find in the old songs can be found in [at least some of] the new. Of course, as I address, if it's purely the sound that determines "spiritual" then you have an argument. But this passage, nor any other in the Bible says nothing about this. It is purely from one's own "association" and "knowledge", and 1 Cor.8 and Rom. 14 tell us how to deal with this. (Not condemn everyone else and claim they are dishonoring God).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sounds like what I'd like to do to CCM music; it's not the people I have a problem with--just the music.
Acts 19:19,20: "Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed."
I wonder if the "curious arts" included cd's and tapes of CCM music?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not getting the point. People back then would have seen your traditional piano/organ hymns as "curious arts" as well. Were they right, meaning your music should be burned?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>rlvaughn and I knew this thread would eventually degenerate away from the civil discussion of BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES into the emotional expressions/ourbursts manifested by many of these most recent posts (DHK excluded).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess I was involved in this. It was going well when Psalms 143:5 began posting about music that evil spirits liked, or something. I jumped into it, not realizing which thread it was, and then it became me, MagicDar and Rockfort vs DHK. (Don't see why he's being held up the only unemotional responder, though). Sorry that happened, but oh well, one thread in which people came to an agreement certainly didn't end the whole issue, so of course the debate would resurface, and that's the purpose of the board.

 

[John Wells]

DHK,

You said, "Acts 19:19,20: "Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed."
I wonder if the "curious arts" included cd's and tapes of CCM music?"

No, I'm sure they had MP3 players! That had to be it. Anyway, I appreciate your sense of humor . . . but not your stand on music!

 

[Daniel]

Hey, everybody: lighten up! We had originally hoped this thread would be the one CIVIL thread in the music ministry forum. It didn't turn out that way. What's done is done. It would be nice if things would tone down and return to the BALANCED approach with which we started this thread. (And, no, I am not naive about what Baptist Board is all about--it is a Christian ventilation forum. We all know that!). It had just been hoped that we could keep excessive personal expression out of the picture for just ONE THREAD!...and BTW, we DON'T want Aaron back right now. He needs a break. Don't pressure him. What do you say brethren (and sistren...LOL), can we go somewhere good with this? Go back to page one of this THREAD and see if we can pick it back up....is anyone game? I am....

 

[MagicDar]

If I was being offensive, I apologize, I never meant to offend anyone but mearly state my position on this matter. Anyway, I do believe ccm holds every biblical standard needed for godly music. -dar

 

[DHK]

Rockfort:
"Thank you for having me to understand and teach these kooks that Paul must have been wrong when he said "I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some"

You should first study the verse to find out what it means. Paul did not mean that he had to become a CCMer to understand and win CCMers to the Lord, as you imply. Paul was not teaching that one must become a drug addict to win the drug addicts; that one must become an alcoholic to win the alcoholics, that one must become an adulterer to win the adulterers, that one must stick his head in a garbage can to find out that it is dirty and stinks. You don't have to sin to know that sin is wrong. That's not what Paul was teaching.
Instead of taking one verse out of context look at the whole passage:
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
He lived as a Jew (culturally identifying himself as a Jew, which he was, when he was among the Jews). He lived as a Gentile or as one without the law (vs.21). He adapted himself to the culture of the Gentiles, still being within the bounds of the Bible, when he went to the Gentiles in order to win them. In no case did he ever sin or transgress the law of God in his methods to win souls.
When I go to the nation of Pakistan I become as a Pakistani--eating their food, living in their type of accommodations, speaking their language, adapting to their culture. That is what Paul is talking about.

Magicdar:
" DHK, so what you are saying is this, you can pray with a sincere heart and ask God for wisdom and truth and instead Satan will give you a false peace and wisdom while God does nothing. The bible says, if you ask you shall recieve. I asked God for wisdom and truth and I believe (different from feel) that God did just that and presented me with truth. You may not agree with what God presented me but you may still have your own taste and that is fine." -dar

My feelings and yours are inconsequential. Some people are very emotional; some are not. Don't live your life by your feelings.
My opinions and yours really don't matter.
What my own tastes are as compared to yours makes no difference at all.
Even, in many cases, our prayers: James 4:3 says, "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."
What does matter is this: "What saith the Lord?"
Never mind the tastes, opinions, feelings, etc. what does Scripture say on this matter?
How do you find the will of God--through your feelings? No--through prayerful study of the Word of God--something that has been neglected in many of these posts.

Staying true to His Word,
DHK

 

[John Wells]

Dear DHK,

You stated, "Paul was not teaching that one must become a drug addict to win the drug addicts; that one must become an alcoholic to win the alcoholics, that one must become an adulterer to win the adulterers . . ."

That's quite a leap to go from those examples to: You don't have to play contemporary Christian music to reach those who like and listen to "pop" music today. I see no reasonable basis for a sound analogy. Your examples would be harmful to the believer who mimicked them, whereas my example and Paul's in the passages you introduced are not harmful. It appears to me that Paul would be in agreement with my example just as he suggested modifying our non-harmful habits if it would prevent "a brother from stumbling." Thanks for the evidence. Sorry it worked against your position!

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

[Daniel]

I do believe that things may be in the early stages of getting back on track (at least in terms of MagicDar and DHK). That's good. DHK's points about getting away from our feelings is a good start to restoring the civility intended in this original thread. I will be the first to admit that EACH INDIVIDUAL will have to be fully persuaded in his or her own mind. I doubt if we will SOLVE anything in this forum. That's not likely...but we can have the civil exchange of ideas! That is actually possible, believe it or not!

 

[MagicDar]

DHK, I suppose you didn't catch what I've said in prior posts, but thats ok. I'm not depending solely on my feelings where music is concerned, I mentioned before I have prayed and searched scriptures which is why my convictions on music are as they are. Feelings are totally irrelivant, which is why I do not base my conviction on feelings but solely on the peace God himself has given to me thru scripture and prayer concerning this issue.

-dar

 

[Mikayehu]

I really was hoping to get a reply to my previous post, for I think I made good points in it, but, alas, no reply (as I weep uncontrollably

). I want to try rewording what I said in a little different format. I'm just kind of curious how you guys would answer these questions.
1. Does music (not talking about lyrics) affect people? More specifically does it stir specific emotions (love, anger, happiness, gloom, sensuality, etc.)?
2. If so (which I think all will agree to), which of these are the primary focus of the rock industry as a whole?
3. Do you view CCM as appealing (generally speaking) to the same emotions?

While I don't believe that CCM music should be a matter of separation for believers, I do believe that many do not realize (actually no one realizes) how carnal we are. Rock music was designed to appeal to the basest part of man (I can't imagine anyone disagreeing to this), and CCM (as a whole) seems to invite this into the worship of a holy God. Music is an incredibly difficult issue, but it seems to be the most powerful communicator of all the arts. We guard ourselves so carefully (or at least we should) over what movies we watch, or what art we look at, or what speech we use, and we especially would if Jesus were standing before us. But everything in this world system tugs at us to be impure. We have become so desensitized to the horrors of sin. Ought we not take a very careful look at how the world has influenced us in terms of music?

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mikayehu ]

 

[DHK]

Here's a summary of Bible guidelines for Christian Music:

BIBLE GUIDELINES FOR CHRISTIAN MUSIC CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ? NOT MAN
The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my SONG will I PRAISE him. Psalm 28:7

CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS FOR THE LORD ? NOT FOR THE WORLD
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts TO THE LORD. Colossians 3:16

CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS A NEW SONG ? NOT AN OLD SONG
I will sing a NEW SONG unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee. Psalm 144:9

CHRISTIAN MUSIC'S MESSAGE SHOULD BE CLEAR ? NOT VAGUE OR DECEPTIVE
I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the UNDERSTANDING also. 1 Cor. 14:15

CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD EMPHASIS THE MESSAGE ? NOT THE MUSIC ? NOR THE MUSICIAN
Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious. Psalm 66:2
CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS IN THE LOCAL CHURCH ? NOT CONCERT HALLS, NIGHT CLUBS.
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the CHURCH will I sing praise unto thee. Hebrew 2:12

CHRISTIAN MUSIC SHOULD FEED THE SPIRIT ? NOT THE FLESH
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and SPIRITUAL songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Colossians 3:16

CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS SHOULD BE DEDICATED TO THE LORD ? NOT WORLDLY
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:18-21

These guidelines were found at: http://www.av1611.org/cqguide.html
I would challenge you to go that site and read the entire article. You may find it quite enlightening.

 

[MagicDar]

DHK, I agree with all of those and once again I still find all those qualities in ccm everytime I listen to it.

If the link you provided goes to Dial the truth, I've seen it already, which is actually how I found this board. -dar

 

[DHK]

Then, Magicdar, having read that article, you would agree with their introductory statement:
"We get many requests asking our opinion of certain CCM performers or a certain type music. There is no way for us to keep up with every performer in CCM or every type of music. We put together these simple, common-sense, Bible guidelines. If you're concerned about your music, see if it passes these Bible guidelines. After listening to hundreds of CCM tapes, CD's, and videos, at least 95% of Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) does not pass these Bible guidelines."

 

[MagicDar]

DHK, thats just the point I'm trying to make. I'm not the least bit concerned about the ccm I listen to. I took this type of test years ago and still came up with the same answer, and that is that it does match up to bible guidelines. I suppose I should make mention too, that about 90% of the dial the truth web site I disagree with, in fact I've been in contact with a man named Bruce from a Christian Rock Apologetics site and Bruce and I agree on just about all things concerning music.

In short, I am not confused in any way about the music I listen to but I have grown in Christ thru it, which is another reason why I listen to it all the time. Whatever things are pure, holy and just, if there be any virtue or any praise think on these things.

One thing I noticed about "DTT" is that they tend to really focus on songs of artists that do not directly mention God but still help in a christian walk. They rip apart these artists for not using the name God or Jesus in every single song. Actually I could go on and on about that, simply put I don't agree with the stand that site takes in any form on music. God has given me a style and message that I love and enjoy...I go with it.

-dar

 

[DHK]

"DHK, I agree with all of those and once again I still find all those qualities in ccm everytime I listen to it." (July 11)
I suppose I should make mention too, that about 90% of the dial the truth web site I disagree with," (July 13)
Agree or disagree? What a flip-flop here. The website carefully goes through explaining 7 Biblical guidelines for Christian music, which you first say that you agree with. Then two days later you say, well actually I only really believe in 10% of them?

Quote:
"They rip apart these artists for not using the name God or Jesus in every single song."

Here are the lyrics to one of those songs posted by another member on another thread.
"Lord Of all creation
Of water, earth, and sky
The heavens are Your tabernacle
Glory to the Lord on high

God of wonders beyond our galaxy
You are holy, holy
The universe declares Your majesty
You are holy, holy
Lord of heaven and earth
Lord of heaven and earth"

Song: God Of Wonders - Third Day
by B J Halo

Which Lord and which God is this song talking about? It might easily be talking about Allah, especially if it were translated into Arabic. There are many gods in this world. There is only one Lord Jesus Christ. Worship Him. There is nothing in this song to indicate that this is the triune Godhead, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Jesus Christ of the New. He could be anybody.
This is a good example of a New Age "Christian" song, like many others that you say they "rip apart..."

 

[MagicDar]

DHK, Let me break it down for you a little better. I do agree with the biblical principle...I don't agree with your personal views or should I say the web's views of the artists and or the songs...please let me know if any more explanation of that is needed so I clear it up ok

As far as the song you posted above...what about that song leads you to believe the songwriter would be speaking of any other God other than the God of scripture?

Its says....Lord of ALL creation, of the galaxy of the heavens....I don't mean to be rude towards you but it sounds as though you might be confused as to who created all of creation and the universe. Just reading that song makes my mind go right to God himself, not to any false gods but the only God who exsists. I really am sorry but that song has no indications of new age, it calls the God of creation holy and lifts him up. -dar

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:

"Lord Of all creation
Of water, earth, and sky
The heavens are Your tabernacle
Glory to the Lord on high

God of wonders beyond our galaxy
You are holy, holy
The universe declares Your majesty
You are holy, holy
Lord of heaven and earth
Lord of heaven and earth"

Song: God Of Wonders - Third Day
by B J Halo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was the one that posted this song in another thread, not B J Halo

~Lorelei

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Which Lord and which God is this song talking about? It might easily be talking about Allah, especially if it were translated into Arabic. There are many gods in this world. There is only one Lord Jesus Christ. Worship Him. There is nothing in this song to indicate that this is the triune Godhead, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Jesus Christ of the New. He could be anybody.
This is a good example of a New Age "Christian" song, like many others that you say they "rip apart..." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Many of the old hymns are just as ambiguous, (if you will call it that), and many CCM critics are even admitting this to a certain extent. Remember, the real argument is about the sound. The issue of the text is simply thrown in to try to add weight to the case against CCM, but this is weak, especially in light of the fact that not every old hymn specifically mentions "Father, Son, Spirit" like the Doxologies, or even Jesus. And there are false Jesuses and false concepts of the Triune nature as well. The JW's have their own songs, and I'm sure they mention Jesus, but are we to accept them?
Anyway, looking it it realistically, by definition, the holy "god" who is over all creation, and is to receive glory is the God of the Bible. All the other gods do not share these attributes, and usually, their religions do not even give one god these attributes* (the high god generally is a total mystery, if acknowledged at all).

*Note: Even Allah of the Muslims is technically the God of the Bible (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God who created Adam, the biblical prophets, etc), though they make him into a false god by rejecting Jesus as his only begotten Son, and his plan of salvation. (By this token, the same thing can be said of the Jews as well, but most of us seem to not want to say that)