I'll tell you that I don't want to be burned at the stake by the Brits over this!
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"Modern Israel at 70"
- Thread starter church mouse guy
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I'll tell you that I don't want to be burned at the stake by the Brits over this!
I stopped being a fan of his (bought 3 or 4 of his books) waaaay back when he left his wife and run off with another woman (he's been married like 3-4 times) and 1988 panned out to be business as usual around the world.
The guy's a charlatan, made a fortune selling sensationalism, done right well since his days as a tugboat captain.
Didn't know about his personal life. I don't follow him. It turns out the doctrine precedes dispensationalism after all.
Consider those Scriptures -
These OT Scriptures have an application first to the hearers & their return to the land, then to the coming & ministry of the LORD Jesus Christ, including the end of the old covenant system & the establishment of the eternal New Covenant, then to his return for the consummation - resurrection, judgment, & the NH&NE. To what extent, if any, is a reestablishment of Israel as a nation in the geographical promised land at the time of his return included in these old covenant prophecies?
What is Isaiah 35 prophesying? Surely the ministry of the LORD Jesus during his incarnation, followed by Pentecost & the Gospel - living water, the Holy Spirit poured out -
This does not describe 1948 & the generation that returned -
They are to this day rejecting the one who ransomed them.
Note the way Deu. 30 is quoted in Romans 10:5-13. That shows us the way forward in understanding these passages - they are fulfilled in & by saving work of the LORD Jesus Christ -
Despite the Gospel being preached from Pentecost onwards, beginning at Jerusalem to the Jews & Jewish leaders by the Apostles & Stephen, the leaders of the generation (this generation) that rejected their Messiah led the majority of the nation into rebellion & destruction.
Many thousands did believe & formed the Church, & those who continued their witness in the land were delivered before the destruction. See Mat.24, Mark 13 & Luke 21. A Zechariah prophesied:
BUT - does Luke say that the restoration of Israel as a nation follows the time of the Gentiles? Or does Paul in Romans 11 say that the restoration of Israel as a nation will follow the fullness of the Gentiles?
We need to read what is written -
Paul has spent the first 10 chapters of Romans explaining that believing Jews & Gentiles are children of Abraham by faith in Christ, & so together comprise "all Israel." Jews - Isaelites - are being saved from Pentecost onwards & together comprise God's redeemed people.
THe great problem with Lindsey & co is that they ignore the New Covenant Scriptures.
The prophets cited prophesied before or during the exile, to real, living people who were suffering, & even in despair. See Eze. 37:11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’
These OT Scriptures have an application first to the hearers & their return to the land, then to the coming & ministry of the LORD Jesus Christ, including the end of the old covenant system & the establishment of the eternal New Covenant, then to his return for the consummation - resurrection, judgment, & the NH&NE. To what extent, if any, is a reestablishment of Israel as a nation in the geographical promised land at the time of his return included in these old covenant prophecies?
What is Isaiah 35 prophesying? Surely the ministry of the LORD Jesus during his incarnation, followed by Pentecost & the Gospel - living water, the Holy Spirit poured out -
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened,
And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then the lame shall leap like a deer,
And the tongue of the dumb sing.
For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness,
And streams in the desert.
And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then the lame shall leap like a deer,
And the tongue of the dumb sing.
For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness,
And streams in the desert.
This does not describe 1948 & the generation that returned -
10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
They are to this day rejecting the one who ransomed them.
That predicts Pentecost, as I showed in post #3
That happened partially throughout the old covenant period, & finally in AD 70. However that "blessing & curse" passage in Deuteronomy keeps open the relationship of the people with their God -
Deu. 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Note the way Deu. 30 is quoted in Romans 10:5-13. That shows us the way forward in understanding these passages - they are fulfilled in & by saving work of the LORD Jesus Christ -
Rom. 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
That again corresponds to the Pentecost fulfilment, the New Covenant baptism in water contrasted with the OC "baptism" in the blood of the old covenant - Exo. 24. See Hebrews 9, where the writer contrasts OC rituals (diverse baptisms v.10) with the cleansing blood of Christ.
I do not believe a faithful, Covenant-keeping God could break his word. In particular, I do not think he has been punishing the Jews for 2,000 years for their disobedience - the Gospel has been open to ALL nations since Pentecost, when it was preached to "Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven."
Despite the Gospel being preached from Pentecost onwards, beginning at Jerusalem to the Jews & Jewish leaders by the Apostles & Stephen, the leaders of the generation (this generation) that rejected their Messiah led the majority of the nation into rebellion & destruction.
Many thousands did believe & formed the Church, & those who continued their witness in the land were delivered before the destruction. See Mat.24, Mark 13 & Luke 21. A Zechariah prophesied:
Zec. 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
BUT - does Luke say that the restoration of Israel as a nation follows the time of the Gentiles? Or does Paul in Romans 11 say that the restoration of Israel as a nation will follow the fullness of the Gentiles?
We need to read what is written -
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Paul has spent the first 10 chapters of Romans explaining that believing Jews & Gentiles are children of Abraham by faith in Christ, & so together comprise "all Israel." Jews - Isaelites - are being saved from Pentecost onwards & together comprise God's redeemed people.
THe great problem with Lindsey & co is that they ignore the New Covenant Scriptures.
No, the problem is that Isiah said that Israel would be born in one day, which happened 70 years ago today on May 14, 1948, and President Truman, who was a Southern Baptist, recognized them.
So the POTUS's opinion is conclusive. See my most #3
The OT does not override the New. but the New is the fulfilment of the old.
Truman was no dummy and he probably knew what the SBC taught except for the part about cussin'. Another one of our Presidents, John Quincy Adams, also said that Israel would be a nation again. He probably got it from the Puritans also. I am worried that the Brits will burn me at the stake for saying that Israel will be a nation again as they did Rev. Francis Kett in 1589. (Note to Brits: you don't want to burn me at the stake--too much work and trouble.)
What does the SBC teach about the modern nation-state of Israel?
I don't know but Harry S. Truman would have been very knowledgeable about SBC theology in 1948 (which would have been dispensational) when the USA was the first nation to recognize diplomatically the State of Israel, just as John Quincy Adams would have known the Puritan teachings that Israel would once again become a state someday as suggested by Church Father Irenaeus. And let's not forget Puritan Increase Mather.
And they would have to learn Latin TO sing the Te Deum whilst they BBQ'd you.
Do you believe the New Covenant Scriptures. We should be concerned with the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles, not uninspired opinions.
No, you are in no danger of the stake from New Covenant Christians. We totally reject the use of force in religious matters, whether against Anabaptists or Palestinians whether Christian or Muslim. You are answerable to God, not me.
You have made no attempt to answer my arguments from the NT.
Do a google of "Christian Atrocities".
I have given detailed Scriptural consideration to the points made in the OP in my posts #3 & #24.
The only responses are little more than tweets.
As for "Christian Atrocities" it is the false "Christianity" you espouse that puts the OT carnal teaching above the Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ that results in such "AntiChristian Atrocities."
POTUS Bush's crusade against terrorism has resulted in death & destruction & fear. And the rise in real terrorism practised particularly by the US & the modern state of Israel..
Follow Jesus, the Prince of peace.
That Kingdom is established by the Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ in the hearts & lives of those who believe, practice & share the saving message. We look for redress when he returns to judge the world in righteousness, and establish the New Heavens & New Earth.
The only responses are little more than tweets.
As for "Christian Atrocities" it is the false "Christianity" you espouse that puts the OT carnal teaching above the Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ that results in such "AntiChristian Atrocities."
POTUS Bush's crusade against terrorism has resulted in death & destruction & fear. And the rise in real terrorism practised particularly by the US & the modern state of Israel..
Follow Jesus, the Prince of peace.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
That Kingdom is established by the Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ in the hearts & lives of those who believe, practice & share the saving message. We look for redress when he returns to judge the world in righteousness, and establish the New Heavens & New Earth.
Well, I am glad not to fear being burnt up. I have to look at previous history and I notice that UK had several people who believed that Israel would be restored. It seems to be a major Puritan doctrine.
Here is what Irenaeus wrote about 185 AD. "But when this AntiChrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the Temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom."
God will make the Jews clean soon but right now He is working hard trying to clean me up.
Not so: all in the vernacular since 1549!
Please, Mr. Custer, I don't wanna go."
The Puritans also believed in paedobaptism & the UK as a nation has Anglicanism forced on it. But I don't think "several people" believing something is a useful precedent for a Scriptural discussion nor does it make it a "major doctrine."
Irenaeus has no more authority than Lindsey. He is obvious giving his interpretation of the Olivet prophecy & Revelation, on the mistaken understanding that Revelation was written after the AD 70 destruction.
(Re)read my post #3. You know neither OT prophecy nor NT fulfilment by the LORD Jesus Christ & the Gospel. You claim 1948 for " Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once?" But, you ignore the force of the whole prophecy, which Stephen quoted before the Jews who rejected first their Messiah, then his Gospel of forgiveness, and proceeded to stone him, & persecute all who followed Jesus.
If those calling themselves "Jews" continue to reject their Messiah, & by their actions reject Moses & the prophets, then they will be condemned when Jesus returns.
Luke 16:27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Try making the case for the restoration of the nation of Israel using NT Scripture.
Sir, there has to be a third temple to fulfill Revelation. Another NT source would be Romans. The OT would be prophecies given specifically to the Jews about their return to the land as promised in the everlasting covenant.
Have you read what Solomon & Isaiah said about a man-made temple? Or what Jesus & the Apostles said? Have you read Hebrews. All this stuff about the reestablishment of the state of Israel is contrary to Scripture.
Rev. 1 states that the prophecies refer to things which must shortly take place ... for the time is near.
Written before AD 70, whatever Irenaeus may have said.
Rev. 11 refers to the destruction for their rejection of the two witnesses, representing Moses & Elijah, the Law & the Prophets (Luke 16), NOT a rebuilt temple.
Rev. 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are savedshall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
I referred to Romans in post #24
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