Monergistic Theology

[37818]

Monergistic theology

Does Monergistic theology teach by grace faith through salvation? The interpretation that reneration precedes faith is at issue. Election precedes the creation of mankind (Ephesians 1:4) and therefore precedes faith is not at issue here. Ephesians 2:8 teaches faith precedes salvation saying, "by grace ye are saved through faith."

 

[SovereignGrace]

Faith and salvation happen simultaneously. One is not saved w/o having faith and one does not have faith and is not saved.

 

[Dave G]

Does Monergistic theology teach by grace faith through salvation?

I'm not sure what "Monergistic theology" states, but the Bible teaches that true faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and that was delivered ( given ) to only the saints ( Jude 1:3 ).

All men do not have this faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), it is the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ).
Paul told Timothy that he endured all things for the elect's sake ( not the sake of all men ), so that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus ( 2 Timothy 2:10 ).

Side note:
Like silver, true faith endures all the tests and trials, whereas false "faith", which only tares and unbelievers have, peters out and falls flat when tried.

It depends on how one puts together the pieces, I suppose.
Like many, I once believed that faith preceded regeneration...but over the years of study, my view of that has changed.

The interpretation that reneration precedes faith is at issue.

Regeneration does precede faith, because God had to open Lydia's heart before she attended to the things that Paul spoke of ( Acts of the Apostles 16:13-14 ).
Her heart was opened before she believed.


More to think about:

We know that the preaching of the cross is, to them that perish, foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
We know that the natural ( unregenerate ) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, because they are foolishness to him ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), and because they are spiritually discerned.
Therefore, the Gospel, a thing of ( by or from ) the Spirit of God, is foolishness to those whose hearts have not been opened to receive it.
It is also actively hidden to them that are lost ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ) by Satan.

God has to enact a change at the heart level in order for someone to believe...otherwise the Gospel, via the word of God, gets rejected by default as foolishness.

Election precedes the creation of mankind (Ephesians 1:4) and therefore precedes faith is not at issue here.

I agree.

Ephesians 2:8 teaches faith precedes salvation saying, "by grace ye are saved through faith.

I disagree.

It teaches that the faith of Jesus Christ ( Galatians 2:16-21 ) is what carries the believer through this life...by grace is the believer saved through faith, not because of it.
Choosing to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), the decision by God to save some and cast the rest into Hell ( election ), was determined by God before the world began.

Unlike what John Wesley taught and other "Arminians" currently teach, I happen to believe that salvation does not occur the moment one believes on Christ.
The believer's notification of their salvation ( the gift of eternal life (John 17:3 )) by God, happens at the moment of belief in the Gospel and the belief on Christ for the forgiveness of a person's sins.


May His grace and mercy be always at the forefront of your mind, sir.

 

[Reformed]

Does Monergistic theology teach by grace faith through salvation? The interpretation that reneration precedes faith is at issue. Election precedes the creation of mankind (Ephesians 1:4) and therefore precedes faith is not at issue here. Ephesians 2:8 teaches faith precedes salvation saying, "by grace ye are saved through faith."

I think you to need to acquaint yourself with the Reformed ordo salutis. I am going to link this article which will explain it in detail, if you are interested in reading it: Reformed Ordo Salutis

Since most people do not click on links, I will explain it here. The term ordo salutis is Latin for "order of salvation". While all the components of the ordo salutis happen almost instantaneously, there is an economy or casual order to them. For instance, justification is not the same thing as regeneration, just as election/predestination is not the same thing as glorification. Some parts of the ordo salutis have a "now but not yet" aspect to them. We are positionally glorified at conversion but we will not experience full glorification until the eternal state. Also, the ordo salutis is not something that happens just once. We are always repenting. We are always becoming more like Christ (progressive sanctification). Regeneration does precede faith but it is not separate from faith. The two are inexorably linked in the ordo salutis. The reason the Monergist/Calvinist believe regeneration precedes faith is that scripture teaches that the sinner is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13) and incapable of any positive response to the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7). The Holy Spirit must first make the sinner capable of believing, which is what He does in the ordo salutis.

I do not expect you to agree with this explanation, I am only seeking to explain these things to you. So, yes, I reject the erroneous notion that Calvinists add works to salvation.

 

[Revmitchell]

Does Monergistic theology teach by grace faith through salvation? The interpretation that reneration precedes faith is at issue. Election precedes the creation of mankind (Ephesians 1:4) and therefore precedes faith is not at issue here. Ephesians 2:8 teaches faith precedes salvation saying, "by grace ye are saved through faith."

I agree that election precedes the creation of mankind just not the calvie definition of election. I will stick with scripture.

 

[Dave G]

I agree that election precedes the creation of mankind just not the calvie definition of election. I will stick with scripture.

Where do you think "Calvinists" get it... from Scripture, or outside of it?

Exodus 33:19
Psalms 65:4. <----- Blessed is the one whom God chooses, and causes to approach Him.
Isaiah 8:18.

Matthew 7:21-23. <----- Many claim to believe, but only those that Christ knew on the cross will be able to enter in to eternal life.
Matthew 11:25-27. <---- No man "sees" the Father except the Son reveal Him to them.
Matthew 13:10-17.
Matthew 25:31-34.

John 1:11-13. <----- No one "receives" Him of their own will. It is only by God's will that a person is born again. He controls regeneration, not us ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
John 6:37-44.
John 6:64-65. <---- No one comes to Christ unless it is given by the Father to do so.
John 8:12.
John 8:31-32
John 8:42-47.
John 10:26-29.
John 17:2.

Acts of the Apostles 2:39.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

Romans 8:29-30. <----- Only those who are foreknown are predestinated, only those that are predestinated are called, only those that are called are justified, and only those that are justified are glorified. All these things are limited to the foreknown, and no one outside of the foreknown is afforded these privileges.
Romans 9.
Romans 10:20
Romans 11:5-8.

1 Corinthians 1:18.
1 Corinthians 2:14.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Galatians 1:15-16.
Galatians 4:3-7.
Ephesians 1:3-14.
Ephesians 2:1-10.
Ephesians 4:1-7.

Philippians 1:29.
Colossians 1:12
Colossians 1:21-22.
Colossians 1:26.
Colossians 2:13-14.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-17.
1 Timothy 6:12.
2 Timothy 1:9.
2 Timothy 2:10.
2 Timothy 2:19.
Titus 2:11-14.
Titus 3:4-7.

Hebrews 2:13.
Hebrews 3:1.
Hebrews 4:3.
Hebrews 5:9.
Hebrews 6:17.
Hebrews 7:25.
Hebrews 8:10-13.
Hebrews 10:14.
Hebrews 10:39.

James 2:5.
1 Peter 1:1-5.
1 Peter 1:18-21.
1 Peter 2:6-10.
1 Peter 2:25.
1 Peter 4:18.
1 Peter 5:10.
2 Peter 1:1.
2 Peter 1:10.
2 Peter 2:12.
2 Peter 3:8-9.

1 John 3:1.
1 John 4:7-10.
1 John 4:19. <---- Nobody loves God unless He first loves them.
2 John 1:1.
3 John 1:11.

Jude 1:1.
Revelation 2:17. <----- No one has ears to hear and eyes to see except God give them.
Revelation 2:29.
Revelation 3:6.
Revelation 3:13.
Revelation 5:9-10.
Revelation 17:14.
Revelation 19:9. <---- Blessed are those who are both chosen and called to the marriage supper of the Lamb ( Matthew 22:1-14 ).
Revelation 21:6-8.
Revelation 22:17. <------ No man "hears", except God give them ears to "hear" and eyes to "see". No man thirsts after righteousness except those who are made righteous. No man "wills" except God change his heart.


" In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;" ( 2 Timothy 2:25 ).
God has to give men repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, other wise they cannot "see" it.


May God, in His wisdom, give you many things, sir.

 

[Revmitchell]

Where do you think "Calvinists" get it... from Scripture, or outside of it?

Exodus 33:19
Psalms 65:4. <----- Blessed is the one whom God chooses, and causes to approach Him.
Isaiah 8:18.

Matthew 7:21-23. <----- Many claim to believe, but only those that Christ knew on the cross will be able to enter in to eternal life.
Matthew 11:25-27. <---- No man "sees" the Father except the Son reveal Him to them.
Matthew 13:10-17.
Matthew 25:31-34.

John 1:11-13. <----- No one "receives" Him of their own will. It is only by God's will that a person is born again. He controls regeneration, not us ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
John 6:37-44.
John 6:64-65. <---- No one comes to Christ unless it is given by the Father to do so.
John 8:12.
John 8:31-32
John 8:42-47.
John 10:26-29.
John 17:2.

Acts of the Apostles 2:39.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

Yea, I have seen all the scripture that calvies misunderstand because if their eisegetical study of scripture. Here once again you fail to see that in the gospels and especially the verses you have quoted Jesus was talking about His disciples not anyone else.

Jesus Himself said “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” For the purposes of those conversations the context was not salvation for the world, it was the calling of those who would follow Him right then in His earthly ministry. The calvie eisegesis intentionally overlooks the context of those passages.

Romans 8:29-30. <----- Only those who are foreknown are predestinated, only those that are predestinated are called, only those that are called are justified, and only those that are justified are glorified. All these things are limited to the foreknown, and no one outside of the foreknown is afforded these privileges.
Romans 9.
Romans 10:20
Romans 11:5-8.

The calvie postion hurts itself here. Using the word "foreknown" in this way actually indicates God knew them. To suggest such would mean not that they were simply chosen for a future relationship but that God knew them before they ever existed, in other words they were saved. For God to know them means they are saved. This is not what that passage says. What it actually is a reference to is "foreknew" or "new them of old". In Romans 8 He is talking about the Saints of old and in Romans 11 he is talking about OT Israel.

The difficulty that arises from calvie eisegesis is that you all miss just who is the context of so many passages.

Since you failed to comment on them I deleted all the biblical references without your explanation. Not helpful to the discussion.

Revelation 2:17. <----- No one has ears to hear and eyes to see except God give them.

Not even close to what that passage says. It is a call. It is not even inferred.

Revelation 19:9. <---- Blessed are those who are both chosen and called to the marriage supper of the Lamb

It says invited. Sorry not the same thing.

Revelation 22:17. <------ No man "hears", except God give them ears to "hear" and eyes to "see". No man thirsts after righteousness except those who are made righteous. No man "wills" except God change his heart.

You know there is a warning in 22:18 I think you need to read it and heed it.

 

[Dave G]

Yea, I have seen all the scripture that calvies misunderstand because if their eisegetical study of scripture. Here once again you fail to see that in the gospels and especially the verses you have quoted Jesus was talking about His disciples not anyone else.

I disagree.
To me, you fail to see the significance of who Jesus was talking about in John chapters 6, 10 and 17....all of His sheep, not just the Jews.

Jesus Himself said “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

I agree, and Paul was sent to the Gentiles to preach the very same Gospel, with the very same select message.

Using the word "foreknown" in this way actually indicates God knew them.

Yes, it does ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).

To suggest such would mean not that they were simply chosen for a future relationship but that God knew them before they ever existed, in other words they were saved.

Exactly.

This is not what that passage says.

That is precisely what it says.

What it actually is a reference to is "foreknew" or "new them of old".

Agreed.
To be known of old means to know them in eternity past.

In Romans 8 He is talking about the Saints of old

In Romans 8 He is talking about all those who love God, not just the saints of old, and are the called according to His purpose....see Romans 8:28.

and in Romans 11 he is talking about OT Israel.

In Romans 11 He is talking about the elect ( chosen), who make up both Jews and Gentiles,
See the entire chapter.
Or, simply take these at face value:

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day." ( Romans 11:7-8 )

" I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." ( Romans 11:11 )

The difficulty that arises from calvie eisegesis is that you all miss just who is the context of so many passages.

I think I have the context down quite well.
Would you like to take some verses and run through them, contextually?

Perhaps we're both missing something.

 

[Dave G]

Since you failed to comment on them I deleted all the biblical references without your explanation. Not helpful to the discussion.

I didn't think I had to comment on them.
To me, anyone who can understand the Scriptures should be able to comprehend why I listed them.

Not even close to what that passage says. It is a call. It is not even inferred.

The passage in Revelation 2:17 is related to all the other passages that state, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear", which is a statement the Lord Jesus made in the Gospels.
Who has ears to hear, and eyes to see?
All men, or only some?

According to Matthew 13:11-12, only His disciples... of which all of His sheep are His disciples.
According to John 8:47, only them that are "of God" "hear" God's words.
The rest do not, because they are not "of God".

It says invited. Sorry not the same thing.

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God." ( Revelation 19:9 )
I agree.
It says "called", just like every other passage where "calling" is developed in God's word.
The Greek word is "καλέω", which means to "invite".
In Romans 8:29-30, only those that are foreknown are predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.
Only those that are predestinated are invited, and only those that are invited are justified.
Finally, only those that are justified are glorified.

So, eternal life is not "offered" to all men, it is only promised to those that are foreknown...and none of the rest applies.
If one is not foreknown, then one cannot partake of the predestination, the invitation, the justification nor the glorification.

You know there is a warning in 22:18 I think you need to read it and heed it.

" For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." ( Revelation 22:18-19 )

I know very well what the warning says, and I have no intention of adding to or taking away from the words of the prophecy of the Book of Revelation.

Thank you for the admonishment.

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree.
To me, you fail to see the significance of who Jesus was talking about in John chapters 6, 10 and 17....all of His sheep, not just the Jews.

Again I know calvies hate to have to answer this but Jesus said Matthew 15:24 - He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[/quote]

I agree, and Paul was sent to the Gentiles to preach the very same Gospel, with the very same select message

.

What Paul was sent to do has no bearing on who Jesus was talking to and about which is He was talking to and about His disciples not about salvation in general.

Yes, it does ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).

Simply quoting scripture with no commentary on how you see it relates to your calvie position is not a legitimate answer.

Exactly.

Meaning the saints of old not a relationship before they existed

That is precisely what it says.

Another non answer

Agreed.
To be known of old means to know them in eternity past.

No such thing as eternity past

[/QUOTE]

As for the rest your answers are non answers.

 

[Dave G]

Again I know calvies hate to have to answer this but Jesus said Matthew 15:24 - He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

I don't have any problem answering it...and I just did.
Jesus was sent by the Father only to the house of Israel.
He then met Paul on the road to Damascus, after He was risen and ascended to the right hand of His Father, and sent him to the Gentiles with the exact, same Gospel that He spoke to the Jews.

Simply quoting scripture with no commentary on how you see it relates to your calvie position is not a legitimate answer.

I didn't think I had to add commentary.
I know of several people on this board who understand my reference without the need for the commentary.
I was hoping you would.

Meaning the saints of old not a relationship before they existed

It is God intimately knowing someone, before He created them.
That is why I listed Jeremiah 1:5.
It's the same as Paul stating what he did in Galatians 1:15 and David confessing to the Lord that He knew him in his mother's womb ( Psalms 139:13-16 ).

No such thing as eternity past

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

" Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," ( 2 Timothy 1:9 )

Before the world began, there was nothing to mark time.
"Eternity past" seems just as fitting a word as any, IMO.

 

[37818]

Faith and salvation happen simultaneously.

Not according to a number of passages. I only need to cite one. Acts 16:31 states, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . ." Future.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Not according to a number of passages. I only need to cite one. Acts 16:31 states, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . ." Future.

Again, no one is saved and is void of faith, just as no one has faith and is not saved. They happen simultaneously.

 

[37818]

Again, no one is saved and is void of faith, just as no one has faith and is not saved. They happen simultaneously.

That is your understanding. Personally I am fine with that notion. Yet Mark 16:16 reads, " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; . . ." Again future. Neither of us believe baptism is a requirement, yet explicitly the promise includes and is after the baptism. You can find the same "shall be saved" in Romans 10:13, Romans 10:14 indecates faith precedes the calling upon God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is your understanding. Personally I am fine with that notion. Yet Mark 16:16 reads, " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; . . ." Again future. Neither of us believe baptism is a requirement, yet explicitly the promise includes and is after the baptism. You can find the same "shall be saved" in Romans 10:13, Romans 10:14 indecates faith precedes the calling upon God.

Quoting the longer ending of Mark 16 is on shaky ground. Ppl use that for support of drinking poison, handling snakes, baptism seals the deal, &c.

 

[37818]

Quoting the longer ending of Mark 16 is on shaky ground. Ppl use that for support of drinking poison, handling snakes, baptism seals the deal, &c.

98.8% of all the known Greek manuscripts cite Mark's epilogue. And what is regarded by many as the oldest manuscript to omit it has a blank column where that epilogue will fit. And the other attributed oldest manuscript those pages which omit it are not even part of the original of that manuscipt. Then there only one other Greek manuscript that omits it. A total of 3 Greek manuscripts which actually omit the epilogue. John 8:47 comes to mind.

 

[Dave G]

Quoting the longer ending of Mark 16 is on shaky ground. Ppl use that for support of drinking poison, handling snakes, baptism seals the deal, &c.

Gotta disagree with you there, Willis.

I would quote the "longer ending" of Mark 16 because I know it to be Scripture.
Anything that is in the AV is the word of the living God.



But that doesn't mean I'm going to go out and drink poison or handle snakes.

 

[Dave G]

That is your understanding. Personally I am fine with that notion. Yet Mark 16:16 reads, " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; . . ." Again future. Neither of us believe baptism is a requirement, yet explicitly the promise includes and is after the baptism. You can find the same "shall be saved" in Romans 10:13, Romans 10:14 indecates faith precedes the calling upon God.

Both.
God's elect are saved ( 1 Corinthians 1:18, Revelation 21:24), and they shall be saved ( Mark 16:16 ).

 

[prophecy70]

But that doesn't mean I'm going to go out and drink poison or handle snakes.

Well why not?

 

[prophecy70]

What it actually is a reference to is "foreknew" or "new them of old". In Romans 8 He is talking about the Saints of old and in Romans 11 he is talking about OT Israel.

He is talking about the saints of old?

What in the world does mean?