Monogenes

[rlvaughn]

Other readings on Marlowe's site:
Büchsel on μονογενης
Berkhof on the Eternal Generation of the Son
Parmenides, B 8. 4

 

[John of Japan]

I think we already beat this horse to death in the previous thread.

 

[Reformed1689]

The BDAG lexicon allows for the meaning ‘only begotten’ for μονογενής but seems to view this meaning as secondary. In addition, they note that in the Johannine literature “The renderings only, unique may be quite adequate for all its occurrences here.”

BTW, BDAG indicates "only begotten" is inadequate, because unique or only appears adequate. in all its occurrences.

I agree with @Van BDAG does not only allow for only begotten.

 

[37818]

By this are you saying that he was never the Son of God until the incarnation?

Dr. Walter Martin in his Kingdom of the Cults taught that since the Bible nowhere taught the "eternal Son," that eternal generation of the second person of the Trinity was also not Biblical. He taught that that Biblically the Word became the Son in His incarnation, John 1:14; Luke 1:35.

 

[37818]

i have for the most part followed the Nicene school (Athanasius) of the Holy Trinity - in particular.
after i did my self study thereof i chose Calvary University for my disciplined endeavor.

The Incarnation, the Hypostatic Union, the Homoousious of the Father and Son , the Perichoresis of the Trinity, the Kenosis of Christ.

These are the most VERY IMPORTANT DOCTRINES of orthodox CHRISTIANITY many traditional and orthodox (so called) churches and Christian entities waver and err in ignorance being undisciplined in Trinitarian theology.

These church dogma took centuries to develop with much debate and yes shamefully even bloodshed.

IMO even teachers of children should be very well versed in these Christian dogma.

I have heard children having the Trinity explained thusly "just as I am a father a son and a husband" so God is Father, Son and Holy Ghost."

This is modalism which I believe is the present heresy of MUCH (maybe most) of Christendom.

There is no excuse for this ignorance, the web makes Trinitrian DOCTRINE EASILY ADDRESSED.

The Nicene Creed's incarnational Trinitarian roots

I do admit that you may need a pot of coffee to be able to sail the sea of Trinitarian theology but it is very satisfying.

The Nicene Creed is wrong teaching, ". . . the only begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, light from light, . . ." The unique eternal Son of God is not a "light from light." He is the "True Light," John 1:9; Hebrews 1:3. The teaching "begotten from the Father before all ages," is the basis of Ariaism. That is the reason the creed must qualify "begotten" with "not made." I am a Biblical and philosophical Trinitaran. That the Persons, God the Father, eternal Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the same YHWH.

 

[Van]

By this are you saying that he was never the Son of God until the incarnation?

Why waste time attempting to imply fault where none exists. Are you saying you think the Word was never the Son of God before the incarnation? I cannot believe you would hold such as unstudied view.

 

[Van]

Other readings on Marlowe's site:
Büchsel on μονογενης
Berkhof on the Eternal Generation of the Son
Parmenides, B 8. 4

Once again the same false arguments are posted, claiming monegenes means "only begotten." However, another perfectly good Greek word does mean "only begotten." Therefore the effort to redefine the word is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

 

[37818]

μονογενής is a compond word from μόνος meanig alone and γίνομαι meaning to come into existence.

μονογενής meaning one of a kind.

 

[HankD]

The Nicene Creed is wrong teaching, ". . . the only begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, light from light, . . ." The unique eternal Son of God is not a "light from light." He is the "True Light," John 1:9; Hebrews 1:3. The teaching "begotten from the Father before all ages," is the basis of Ariaism. That is the reason the creed must qualify "begotten" with "not made." I am a Biblical and philosophical Trinitaran. That the Persons, God the Father, eternal Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the same YHWH.

37818 you are confused and have things backwards. your confusion stems from a wrong view of the word "begotten", you keep insisting on framing it in English nuance rather than Koine Greek, you also have a mistaken historical knowledge of Athanasius and the Council of Nicaea.

your statements seem to me to be undisciplined. so rather than injure any good relationship between us i will cede and bow out of the discussion.

perhaps at a later date we might take up the mantle again.

Have you had any formal education in theology, church history, Greek, Hebrew... ?

I will admit that you are probably gifted with a superior mind over mine - i think you would excel in a formal education.

 

[37818]

37818 you are confused and have things backwards. your confusion stems from a wrong view of the word "begotten", you keep insisting on framing it in English nuance rather than Koine Greek, you also have a mistaken historical knowledge of Athanasius and the Council of Nicaea.

your statements seem to me to be undisciplined. so rather than injure any good relationship between us i will cede and bow out of the discussion.

perhaps at a later date we might take up the mantle again.

Have you had any formal education in theology, church history, Greek, Hebrew... ?

I will admit that you are probably gifted with a superior mind over mine - i think you would excel in a formal education.

Say this does not make your claim true.
If you really think I am confused, then please quote my first false statement. And show why it is wrong. Please do this one step at a time.

 

[rlvaughn]

Why waste time attempting to imply fault where none exists. Are you saying you think the Word was never the Son of God before the incarnation? I cannot believe you would hold such as unstudied view.

Got it. You are not willing to answer the question.

 

[rlvaughn]

Once again the same false arguments are posted, claiming monegenes means "only begotten." However, another perfectly good Greek word does mean "only begotten." Therefore the effort to redefine the word is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

Got it. Monogenes can only mean what Van says it means. There is no point discussing it further.

 

[rlvaughn]

The BDAG lexicon allows for the meaning ‘only begotten’ for μονογενής but seems to view this meaning as secondary.

I agree with @Van BDAG does not only allow for only begotten.

David, what are you agreeing with here? Thanks.

 

[HankD]

Say this does not make your claim true.
If you really think I am confused, then please quote my first false statement. And show why it is wrong. Please do this one step at a time.

i have issues with engaging too long with a brother when ii seems fruitless.
Again i cede.

some other time.

 

[rlvaughn]

From what understand, not in any other languages from the Greek.

An equivalent of "only begotten" is in the German Luther Bible and the Spanish Reina-Valera, which were translated from the Greek.

 

[HankD]

there is more than one Greek word which translates to "begotten".

 

[Reformed1689]

David, what are you agreeing with here? Thanks.

That BDAG does not necessitate begotten to be used.

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks, David.

 

[37818]

An equivalent of "only begotten" is in the German Luther Bible and the Spanish Reina-Valera, which were translated from the Greek.

The Greek does not mean only "begotten." It was first translated that way in Latin.
Saying that does not make it so.
German Luther Bible, John 3:16 . . . Also hat Gott die Welt geliebet, daß er seinen eingeborenen Sohn gab, auf daß alle, die an ihn glauben, nicht verloren werden, sondern das ewige Leben haben. . . . eingeborenen. native

 

[rlvaughn]

Yes, look at what native means, and also the parts of the word -- geborenen means born. Another indication that Luther intends "only begotten" can be seen in the NGU-DE changing it to einzige, only.

Regardless, we know some Greek speakers used monogenes in the sense of only begotten.