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Monogenes

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George Antonios

George Antonios

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There is no such thing as "eternally begotten" anywhere in that blessed book! That's philosophy, and in seeking to help God out, it undermines the deity of Christ. Just drop it brethren.

only begotten Son applies to the begetting of Christ's FLESH and IN TIME, about 2,000 years ago in Israel. That's it!

  • If you place the begetting in time and ascribe that begetting to his flesh - then you preserve the deity of Christ.
  • If you place that begetting in eternity and thus ascribe it to his spirit - then you deny [practically] the deity of Christ.
 
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Yeshua1

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George Antonios said:
The problem here is that you are confounding God the Word and God the Son beyond all distinction. Are they the same? Yes, absolutely. But there is a distinction - as clearly implied by the different titles.
God the Word only became God the Son when he incarnated.
I mean guys! you've read the gospels, have you not?!
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He was eternally begotten by the Father when was the Word, or as the Son !
 
HankD

HankD

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George Antonios said:
There is a reason why John in his writings, when directly addressing God in eternity, always uses Word rather than Son - John 1:1, 1Jn.5:7, etc.

He was the Lamb foreordained as far as foreknowledge goes. Again, retrospection.


Indeed, because philosophical, not scriptural.

Anyway, I do appreciate your good natured responses.
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Just reporting from an historical point of view why I believe what I have chosen to believe. I see no problem with "the" virgin Mary. I do with baptismal generation.
 
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Yeshua1

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George Antonios said:
I was just saying that that's not your typical Muslim. We deal with them here in Montreal.

And ultimately, please note, ultimately, although it's good to study manuscripts and defend them, 95% of Western Christianity does not believe that a perfect Bible exists anywhere - let alone the KJB - thanks to smarter-than-God-stuffed-shirt-scholars who turned seminary students into practical, please note, practical, disbelievers in the inerrancy of any printed Bible today...so as I was saying, ultimately, you CANNOT defend the manuscripts because your whole line of argument ENDS in the position of no perfect Bible anywhere today.
And that's an insanely unBiblical position to hold, and the Muslims rightly deride it.
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ONLY the originals were fully perfect, so no need to have a perfect English translation, as still infallible in all it teaches to us!
 
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Yeshua1

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George Antonios said:
There is no such thing as "eternally begotten" anywhere in that blessed book! That's philosophy, and in seeking to help God out, it undermines the deity of Christ. Just drop it brethren.

only begotten Son applies to the begetting of Christ's FLESH and IN TIME, about 2,000 years ago in Israel. That's it!

  • If you place the begetting in time and ascribe that begetting to his flesh - then you preserve the deity of Christ.
  • If you place that begetting in eternity and thus ascribe it to his spirit - then you deny [practically] the deity of Christ.
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except that scriptures do support as being viable either translating as one and only, or as only begotten!
 
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Yeshua1

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HankD said:
According to the fathers of the Council of Nicea, the Logos is the Son of God because Of His relationship with the Father - eternally begotten of Him. The Spirit proceeding from Him.

Going against the eternality of the sonship of the preincarnate Logos goes against the Nicean Creed the document of most Trinitarian credal churches, see above.

Personally IMO it doesn't matter as the deity of Christ is not denied by whether one believes the Logos should or shouldn't be called the Son of God.
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There was always God the Son, who was the Word who became Incarnated as the Man Jesus Christ!
 
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Yeshua1

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HankD said:
Is the doctrine of the Trinity heretical George? The Council of Nicea was where it was first declared.
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They had no issues with only begotten, as to them meant that Jesus was eternally very God of very God!
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

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HankD said:
Is the doctrine of the Trinity heretical George? The Council of Nicea was where it was first declared.
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My point was that just because the Nicene Creed said it doesn't make it true.
If you don't have a problem with "The Virgin" that tells me you probably don't have a Catholic background, at least you weren't a practicing one.
 
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Yeshua1

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George Antonios said:
My point was that just because the Nicene Creed said it doesn't make it true.
If you don't have a problem with "The Virgin" that tells me you probably don't have a Catholic background, at least you weren't a practicing one.
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Mary was a Virgin, mother of Jesus, correct?
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

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Yeshua1 said:
Mary was a Virgin, mother of Jesus, correct?
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Mary was "a virgin", she is not the entitled "The Virgin" which ascribes two things to her 1) deity and 2) perpetual virginity.
But a non-Catholic or non-Orthodox with an evangelical background would not pick up on that, but for us, it's an ear-bomb.
 
HankD

HankD

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George Antonios said:
My point was that just because the Nicene Creed said it doesn't make it true.
If you don't have a problem with "The Virgin" that tells me you probably don't have a Catholic background, at least you weren't a practicing one.
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I was indeed Catholic. and yes a practicing Catholic (through Confirmation).

I love Mary I don't worship her.
I see the definite article as proper because she was chosen as the mother of our Lord from among all the virgins of Israel.
 
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