More J6 need to know info

No. Epps had made that statement when questioned and then Samsel was questioned (providing the same information).

The strange thing is those who hold Samsel as a hero are the same ones spreading theories about Epps. It doesn't make sense.

 

He could have been working with Ryan Samsel (as Samsel supports him both would be plants).

But I believe that if anybody was guilty of sparking the riot it would be those who showed up with chemical spray, weapons and riot gear.


In your honest opinion what is the logical conclusion and what is conspiracy theory -

1. Those who showed up at the protest with weapons, chemical spray, and riot gear sparked a riot.

2. A 60 year old veteran and business owner from Arizona was a government plant who sparked a riot by ordering the protesters to go to the Capital and insisting the election was stolen (by repeating two statements that Trump had just made in his speech).


I personally believe #1 is the logical conclusion and #2 is a conspiracy theory the sheeple of one sect will believe because it fits their narrative.


Interestingly enough, IF Ebbs sparked a riot with his "orders" then Trump is just as guilty because Ebbs merely repeated what Trump had just said. Was Trump ordering people to violence?

The only difference is that Ebbs was guilty of saying this while in an area that had been made restricted from the public (he passed a barricade).

 

When I was doing HVAC work (a couple decades ago) I ran across union magazines. The guy who owned them had highlighted articles and took notes.

The gist of these articles was that the GOP was the deep state and trying to take over the nation. They were a part of some global organization. They were rigging elections and even assassinating Democrat leaders

One article detailed how a plane crash with a Democrat leader onboard was an association as the Republicans had secretly shot down the plane and had the FBI cover it up.

Conspiracy theories can be fun. But I realized that people like that customer (who was a very likable guy) are sheeple who lack critical thinking skills.

What we see now is the other side of extremists - sheeple who are conservatives on the extreme right.


Only two people know what Ebbs said to Samsel (Ebbs and Samsel). Samsel confirmed Ebbs account. There is no basis except conspiracy to say anything else was said.


There is nothing linking Ebbs to the government. There is no indication Ebbs was a government plant. What Ebbs said was also said by then President Trump.


But sheeple will always gravitate to conspiracy theories and will never be persuaded to deal with facts. You cannot prove to some that man landed on the moon, despite pictures from satellites of the moon landing, despite our ability to reflect lasers off of panels left on the surface of the moon. They will view those facts as fake...a coverup. You can never convince some that the earth is not flat.

That is just the way it is. So we have fun with these conspiracies ... sometimes at the expense of the sheeple who hold them (we sometimes forget that there are always sheeple who actually believe these things).

It doesn't make since because once one thing is proven wrong they just ignore it and move to another, all the while creating inconsistencies in their narrative (like Samsel who is the persecuted hero along with Samsel who was a government plant obeying Ebbs).

 

Trump told them to go to the Capitol and peacefully and patriotically make their voices heard (he said this twice). He also told them to fight like (curse word) and if they don't fight like (curse word) they won't have a country anymore (he said this twice, using the curse words 20 times). He repeatedly said that the election was being stolen.

Ebbs told people to go to the Capitol to protest. Yes, Ebbs said to do so calmly. He texted his nephew that he was with a few others in front of the Capitol and he orchestrated it. He explained that he meant that group protesting in front of the Capitol (this is on Capitol grounds but not directly at the building). Ebbs said the election was being stolen.


Ebbs stated that he did not realize a riot was breaking out or people were carrying weapons intending to attack police officers. He had not intended on going but went because his son wanted him to go.

When people started becoming confrontational towards law enforcement Ebbs told them "We made our point. We don't need to escalate it any further. This needs to stop."


Alex Jones (an alt-right conspiracy theorist) zoned in on Ebbs use of the word "orchestrated" and applied it to the riot claiming that Ebbs was a government plant. The sheeple believed the story and repeated it as propaganda.


But ....yes....Ebbs did not say anything Trump did not say except that they had made their point, didn't need to escalate the situation, and people needed to stop.

 

This post is a perfect example, @MrW , of what I mean by inconsistent conspiracy theories held by sheeple.

The third photo is of Steward Rhodes. Rhodes brought a group of people wearing riot gear to the Capitol and instructed them via radio where to go. He was is founder of an alt-right militia and advocated violence to overturn the government. After Jan 6 he complained that they didn't bring rifles.

The top picture is Enrique Tarrio. He texted his followers to storm the Capitol. He stated that he was responsible for the riot.

The second to the last photo is Dominic Pezzola. Pezzola attacked a police officer, took his shield and used it to break a window into the U.S. Senate. When arrested he had a thumb drive containing instructions for making an improvised explosive device.

The second photo is Richard Barnett. Barnett committed a felony by carrying a weapon (a taser) into the US Capitol. He also unlawfully entered the building and threatened a law enforcement officer. Given that his wife said he was a drunk, I'd probably not have given him 4.5 years. But being stupid isn't an excuse, I suppose.

The last picture is Ray Ebbs. Ebbs called for the protestors to remain peaceful and not to escalate the situation. But he used the word "orchestrated" for his section of protestors and the alt-right claimed he orchestrated the riot.

It simply does not add up. Ebbs did not tell people to "storm the Capitol". He did tell his group to go to the Capitol (and they went with him....but did not storm the Capitol). Tarrio DID direct his people to storm the Capitol. Rhodes DID encourage his disciples to use violence. Pezzola DID use violence.

 

I agree with your first comment, but the second is not incorrect (those riots also were not insurrections).

My issue with Jan 6 is that the Democrats characterize the whole (which were mostly protestors) as the few (those that men like Rhodes and Tarrio led with the intent to riot).

I know many followed them into the Capitol but they were just trespassing. They were not damaging property, beating police officers, carrying weapons or riot gear).

Even those rioters were not insurrectionists (they were rioters using violence for political agendas, but not overturning the government).


My main issue is the alt-right and their conspiracies.

They make bad actors into heros (same issue as making Floyd into a hero). And they spread misinformation for their agenda.


If a position or movement is dependent on misinformation to survive then it is not a position or movement that should survive.



Another issue - look at the guy who sat at Pelosi's desk. He got 4.5 years. Consider the Navy service woman who gave military secrets to China. She got 2 years.


I do agree that Enrique Tarrio and Pezzola deserved their sentences. But many were political moves.

 

I am always on the opposite side when it comes to lies and misinformation.

The reason is that I believe if a position has merit then it can't be based on misinformation.

I believe actual facts matter.

So while you and I hold the same political values we differ in how those values materialize into positions or movements.

You are content to accept misinformation that you believe advances your political ideologies while I believe that we should be more honest and objective, that this misinformation ultimately damages the conservative position.

 

This is a good illustration of my point. Here you make a false statement intended to support your agenda. I do not post on threads after I have closed them.

You believe that misinformation supports your position so you post it as if misinformation is justified as long as you think your end goal is justified. But misinformation to advance an agenda is never justified. It is wrong because it is, ultimately, the same as lying.

As Christians we are called to be honest people, godly people. We do not misinform people in order to get them to support our values.


Let's look at examples so you may understand what I mean:

Suppose a pastor tells you that Babbitt was not stepping through that window when shot. Then you see pictures and videos of Babbitt stepping through. You then know that the pastor was giving misinformation (regardless of whether he believed it). How can you then trust that pastor when it comes to important information like Scripture?

Suppose the pastor tells you that The Proud Boys were not involved in the Jan 6 violence. Then you read one of their leaders bragging about planning the riots, to include violence. You would know that pastor gave you misinformation. How could you believe other things he said?

Suppose this pastor told you that Ebbs orchestrated the riots. You read what actually occurred and realized Ebbs had nothing to do with the riots. How could you believe that pastor when it counted?

This goes beyond political agendas.

We discussed the authorship of Hebrews. Suppose that pastor told you that nobody before Augustine and Calvin believed anybody but Paul wrote Hebrews. Then you read about Augustine and Calvin believing in a Pauline authorship. And then you read early Church writers suggesting an other than Pauline authorship. You, again, would know that the pastor gave you misinformation. How could you trust the information he gives on other topics?


We have to be careful about what we believe and repeat to others because when found to be false we destroy our witness.

 

I have not called you a liar (I have no way of knowing whether you are or are not, but give you the benefit of the doubt).

I do consider you "sheeple" based on your posts. That has nothing to do with your politics (sheeple are on all sides) but on your aversion to objectivity and facts.

For example, facts would be what was said and what was done. You live in the world of what those who hold like agendas believe that could mean.


I am not lecturing you in Christian behavior. I am asking how you would think of a pastor who repeatedly believes and says misleading and false things.


In America today there are several divides. One is two opposing conspiracy camps. Each firmly believes their subjective conclusions based on feelings rather than facts to be correct.

That is where you are now.

You post ideas that are not grounded in facts and whine when I point this out.

 

Yes. Many did. Most were charged and given a fine without any probation. These were the ones that simply trespassed.

The ones that got jail time were carrying weapons, breaking windows, beating police officers, or instructing others to do so.

One exception is Epps. He wasn't involved in the riot but got probation anyway.