More J6 need to know info

[canadyjd]

Some. But many truly believe that those who violate the law should face consequences and simply leave it up to the courts.

Right, and some see very real evidence that LE Agencies are involved in one sided political corruption.

That has always been the case, I suppose. But I truly believe the distrust in LE institutions at the Fed level is very high.

If a significant % of the population does not trust the “system” to enforce laws fairly, it could cause the entire political system to unravel.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Right, and some see very real evidence that LE Agencies are involved in one sided political corruption.

That has always been the case, I suppose. But I truly believe the distrust in LE institutions at the Fed level is very high.

If a significant % of the population does not trust the “system” to enforce laws fairly, it could cause the entire political system to unravel.

peace to you

The problem is people too often see what they want to see.

I believe we have to deal with facts. The reason I believe this is that it takes away subjective theories that may or may not be correct.


As an example, look at Ebbs.
What are the facts about Ray Ebbs?

1. Ebbs is a Marine corps veteran
2. Ebbs was the chapter president of Oath Keepers
3. Ebbs was a business owner in Arizona
4. Ebbs accompanied his son to D.C. to protest on Jan 6.
5. Ebbs went past a boundary and organized a protest on Capitol grounds.
6. Ebbs did not enter the Capitol.
7. Ebbs did not become violent, beat police officers, or vandalize the U.S. Capitol.
8. When the protest became violent Ebbs said that they had accomplished their purpose and should not escalate the situation.
9. Ebbs was photographed speaking to Samsel.
10. Ebbs told the FBI he told Samsel the cops were doing their job and he needed to calm down.
11. Samsel independently stated Epps told him the cops were doing their jobs and encouraged him to calm down.
12. Samsel was convicted of disorderly conduct on restricted grounds and given 1 year probation.

What are the theories out there? That Samsel is lying to cover for Ebbs who was an FBI plant. That Ebbs got probation because he was a government plant (even though this is on par with protestors who didn't enter the Capitol but did protest on restricted grounds).

What was the result?
Ebbs lost his business and had to move, going in hiding because of alt-right death threats.


Conspiracy theories are not benign ideas. When spread they can hurt people. In this case, it hurt a marine veteran who was running a wedding venue with his wife and was not employed by the government.

NOW consider that professing Christians have involved themselves in these conspiracy theories. They have become guilty of "bearing false witness". They are guilty of unjustly harming another person. But more than that, they are guilty of compromising their witness. They have believed old wives tales because those theories support their agendas.

My argument is that we have to rely on facts, not theories. Is it possible Ebbs was a government plant? Yes, it is possible. But it is also possible that Ebbs went to be with his son and protest because he believed the election had been stolen.

 

[canadyjd]

The problem is people too often see what they want to see.

I believe we have to deal with facts. The reason I believe this is that it takes away subjective theories that may or may not be correct.


As an example, look at Ebbs.
What are the facts about Ray Ebbs?

1. Ebbs is a Marine corps veteran
2. Ebbs was the chapter president of Oath Keepers
3. Ebbs was a business owner in Arizona
4. Ebbs accompanied his son to D.C. to protest on Jan 6.
5. Ebbs went past a boundary and organized a protest on Capitol grounds.
6. Ebbs did not enter the Capitol.
7. Ebbs did not become violent, beat police officers, or vandalize the U.S. Capitol.
8. When the protest became violent Ebbs said that they had accomplished their purpose and should not escalate the situation.
9. Ebbs was photographed speaking to Samsel.
10. Ebbs told the FBI he told Samsel the cops were doing their job and he needed to calm down.
11. Samsel independently stated Epps told him the cops were doing their jobs and encouraged him to calm down.
12. Samsel was convicted of disorderly conduct on restricted grounds and given 1 year probation.

What are the theories out there? That Samsel is lying to cover for Ebbs who was an FBI plant. That Ebbs got probation because he was a government plant (even though this is on par with protestors who didn't enter the Capitol but did protest on restricted grounds).

What was the result?
Ebbs lost his business and had to move, going in hiding because of alt-right death threats.


Conspiracy theories are not benign ideas. When spread they can hurt people. In this case, it hurt a marine veteran who was running a wedding venue with his wife and was not employed by the government.

NOW consider that professing Christians have involved themselves in these conspiracy theories. They have become guilty of "bearing false witness". They are guilty of unjustly harming another person. But more than that, they are guilty of compromising their witness. They have believed old wives tales because those theories support their agendas.

My argument is that we have to rely on facts, not theories. Is it possible Ebbs was a government plant? Yes, it is possible. But it is also possible that Ebbs went to be with his son and protest because he believed the election had been stolen.

Here are facts:

1. Hilary Clinton campaign paid for the Russian hoax dossier.

2. FBI, Commie and Struck and the rest, knew it was unverified political BS, but ran with it anyway. They spent the first two years of DT’s presidency undermining every effort he made, based on known lies. They lied to the FISA court. They changed documents. In essence, The FBI and DOJ, at the highest levels became dem operatives. To this very day, no one has been prosecuted for what are clear violations of federal law.

3. Smith is prosecuting DT for documents they could have collected without a “raid”. DT so arguing as POTUS, he could have them if he wanted. They are not prosecuting Biden for docs he kept unsecured in his garage that his crack head son had access to.

4. Prosecutors tried to give Hunter Biden a sweetheart deal which the judge refused to accept. They also deliberately allowed several tax fraud violations lapse due to statute of limitations.

I could go on and on. Folks see corruption at the DOJ/FBI. They see verified political bias at the highest levels, and they are upset. There is absolutely no way anyone with an IQ above room temperature could argue DT has been treated fairly by Fed LE.

I hope folks vote for change and I truly hope we get someone that will restore the integrity of LE at the fed level.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Here are facts:

1. Hilary Clinton campaign paid for the Russian hoax dossier.

2. FBI, Commie and Struck and the rest, knew it was unverified political BS, but ran with it anyway. They spent the first two years of DT’s presidency undermining every effort he made, based on known lies. They lied to the FISA court. They changed documents. In essence, The FBI and DOJ, at the highest levels became dem operatives. To this very day, no one has been prosecuted for what are clear violations of federal law.

3. Smith is prosecuting DT for documents they could have collected without a “raid”. DT so arguing as POTUS, he could have them if he wanted. They are not prosecuting Biden for docs he kept unsecured in his garage that his crack head son had access to.

4. Prosecutors tried to give Hunter Biden a sweetheart deal which the judge refused to accept. They also deliberately allowed several tax fraud violations lapse due to statute of limitations.

I could go on and on. Folks see corruption at the DOJ/FBI. They see verified political bias at the highest levels, and they are upset. There is absolutely no way anyone with an IQ above room temperature could argue DT has been treated fairly by Fed LE.

I hope folks vote for change and I truly hope we get someone that will restore the integrity of LE at the fed level.

peace to you

Those are facts. I agree.

But that does not justify Christians engaging in misinformation and conspiracy theories that hurt other people.

I also believe that the Left has weaponized our justice system. I mean, you have the FBI tracking down people for misdemeanors. At the same time felons were let go during the Floyd riots.

But as much distain I hold for the Left, I hold more for those in the conservative right who engage in misinformation.

The reason is I agree with the platform on the Right. I see the same problems they see with our government. But if the Right becomes just as immoral as the left (and it is on that path) then there will be no hope for our nation.

Put another way - I fully expect the Left to be anti-American, dishonest, etc. I just don't believe that "fighting fire with fire" is a winning move for the Right.

 

[canadyjd]

Those are facts. I agree.

But that does not justify Christians engaging in misinformation and conspiracy theories that hurt other people.

I also believe that the Left has weaponized our justice system. I mean, you have the FBI tracking down people for misdemeanors. At the same time felons were let go during the Floyd riots.

But as much distain I hold for the Left, I hold more for those in the conservative right who engage in misinformation.

The reason is I agree with the platform on the Right. I see the same problems they see with our government. But if the Right becomes just as immoral as the left (and it is on that path) then there will be no hope for our nation.

Put another way - I fully expect the Left to be anti-American, dishonest, etc. I just don't believe that "fighting fire with fire" is a winning move for the Right.

I do appreciate your attempt to keep our Christian brothers and sisters upright and without blemish. People have always put “spin” on information. You seem to be saying you “distain” conservatives that “spin” information (you call it misinformation).

You fight the left with transparency. Expose the evil. Change hearts and minds.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

I do appreciate your attempt to keep our Christian brothers and sisters upright and without blemish. People have always put “spin” on information. You seem to be saying you “distain” conservatives that “spin” information (you call it misinformation).

You fight the left with transparency. Expose the evil. Change hearts and minds.

peace to you

Yes. But while I have an issue with "spin" (a lie is a lie), what we have seen exceeds spin.

Spin uses selected facts to lead one to a conclusion.

Consider what was left out of instances.

Here are some of the heros wingman mentioned (and Trump calls hostages of the government):

It is true that Steward Rhodes did not enter the Capitol building. So why such a hard sentence? Rhodes brought a group of people wearing riot gear to the Capitol and instructed them via radio. He was is founder of an alt-right militia and advocated violence to overturn the government. After Jan 6 (but before his arrest) he complained that they didn't bring rifles.

Dominic Pezzola didn't even bother to hear Trump's speech. He went to riot. He attacked a police officer, took his shield and used it to break a window into the U.S. Senate. When arrested he had a thumb drive containing instructions for making an improvised explosive device.


I believe reporters should report facts (all the known facts). Refrain from telling us what select facts mean. But we no longer seem to have real journalism.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes. But while I have an issue with "spin" (a lie is a lie), what we have seen exceeds spin.

Spin uses selected facts to lead one to a conclusion.

Consider what was left out of instances.

Here are some of the heros wingman mentioned (and Trump calls hostages of the government):

It is true that Steward Rhodes did not enter the Capitol building. So why such a hard sentence? Rhodes brought a group of people wearing riot gear to the Capitol and instructed them via radio. He was is founder of an alt-right militia and advocated violence to overturn the government. After Jan 6 (but before his arrest) he complained that they didn't bring rifles.

Dominic Pezzola didn't even bother to hear Trump's speech. He went to riot. He attacked a police officer, took his shield and used it to break a window into the U.S. Senate. When arrested he had a thumb drive containing instructions for making an improvised explosive device.

I believe reporters should report facts (all the known facts). Refrain from telling us what select facts mean. But we no longer seem to have real journalism.

I agree we no longer have objective journalism.

Ok, let’s look at one person you mentioned.

Rhodes brought people to the capitol wearing what you call “riot gear” (that is spin). They wore body armor. Is it illegal to wear body armor to a protest?

Rhodes “instructed them” on a radio. That sounds ominous (spin), but what exactly did he say?

Rhodes founded an “alt-right militia” (spin). What is the name of the group he founded? Does he consider himself to be “alt-right” or simply a patriot concerned about the country?

Do you see that you are engaging in the same kind of misinformation you are accusing others of?

peace to you

 

[JonC]

@canadyjd ,

In full disclosure, I can't stand when Christians say or repeat something that is not true. This extends to illustrations....and I am not sure it should, but it bothers me.

A pastor used an illustration of a warship ship used to transport people as an illustration of not doing what you were designed to do. I thought it was a good story and looked it up when I got home. Turns out it The ship was actually built as a passenger ship that could also be used in wartime. I felt lied to, and I'm sure the preacher simply saw the story on a site for sermon illustrations (he did not intentionally say something that was false).

But that got me thinking....if an illustration presented as a true story is false then how can I trust the pastor on important things?

When I preached I carefully studied illustrations so as to speak the truth, or more often than not used exaggerated stories to emphasize a point (the congregation Knowing it was a made up story).

I am not sure that it is wrong in that pastors case. But it did bother me. Just a personality flaw, I guess.

 

[JonC]

I agree we no longer have objective journalism.

Ok, let’s look at one person you mentioned.

Rhodes brought people to the capitol wearing what you call “riot gear” (that is spin). They wore body armor. Is it illegal to wear body armor to a protest?

Rhodes “instructed them” on a radio. That sounds ominous (spin), but what exactly did he say?

Rhodes founded an “alt-right militia” (spin). What is the name of the group he founded? Does he consider himself to be “alt-right” or simply a patriot concerned about the country?

Do you see that you are engaging in the same kind of misinformation you are accusing others of?

peace to you

Rhodes radioed them to take specific places. He was not arrested for wearing body armor, but that does indicate what type of activity he planned. Rhodes also stated before Jan 6 that it (Jan 6) would be a civil war. He also posted that they should have brought rifles, to kill Pelosi and Pence. And in making plans for Jan 20 he said they would kill people.

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd ,

In full disclosure, I can't stand when Christians say or repeat something that is not true. This extends to illustrations....and I am not sure it should, but it bothers me.

A pastor used an illustration of a warship ship used to transport people as an illustration of not doing what you were designed to do. I thought it was a good story and looked it up when I got home. Turns out it The ship was actually built as a passenger ship that could also be used in wartime. I felt lied to, and I'm sure the preacher simply saw the story on a site for sermon illustrations (he did not intentionally say something that was false).

But that got me thinking....if an illustration presented as a true story is false then how can I trust the pastor on important things?

When I preached I carefully studied illustrations so as to speak the truth, or more often than not used exaggerated stories to emphasize a point (the congregation Knowing it was a made up story).

I am not sure that it is wrong in that pastors case. But it did bother me. Just a personality flaw, I guess.

I agree with that. I have heard one particular story (woman on an airplane with crying kids that had just lost her husband) told by several different pastors as if it happened to them.

Yeah, that bothers me too.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Rhodes radioed them to take specific places. He was not arrested for wearing body armor, but that does indicate what type of activity he planned. Rhodes also stated before Jan 6 that it (Jan 6) would be a civil war. He also posted that they should have brought rifles, to kill Pelosi and Pence. And in making plans for Jan 20 he said they would kill people.

Well, I would have led with plans for civil war and killing politicians. (documents please)

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

Well, I would have led with plans for civil war and killing politicians. (documents please)

Peace to you

They were in his text messages and the Oath Keepers Leadership chat room (his records were seized via warrant). They can be found in the DOJ site (just look up cases).

Prior to Jan 6 he had written Trump (twice) to use the Insurrection Act, but in the chat function he expressed doubt Trump would. He posted an outline for taking over the government by force.

Prior to the riot he posted that he would turn his attention to what he need to do as the founder and leader of the Oath Keepers to prepare for what comes after Trump fails to do his duty.

After Jan 6, but before his arrest, he posted plans for Jan 20, posting that they would be well armed and would kill.

Most of his messages detailing his plans were on their site in a secure section for leadership (there were 7 of these, but one contained the information). The rest were text messages.

 

[Wingman68]

 

[JonC]

View attachment 9042

Better tip - If your peace is so fragile it can be destroyed your trust is misplaced.

 

[canadyjd]

Better tip - If your peace is so fragile it can be destroyed your trust is misplaced.

Better tip- don’t suggest something is wrong with the person whose peace is being destroyed.

Unnecessary

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Better tip- don’t suggest something is wrong with the person whose peace is being destroyed.

Unnecessary

peace to you

I disagree. It is necessary. As Christians our hope and peace should not be in the fleeting things of this world.

But I have seen professing Christians utterly devastated when Biden became POTUS, or when a certain individual was elected sheriff.

Nothing....and I mean nothing...can destroy our peace because our peace is in Christ and we, while in this world, are not of this world.

It is absolutely necessary because it is a problem in our congregations today. Too many churches have become nothing more than political outlets (on both sides). Too many Christians are too invested in secular politics. And they are anxious for it.

 

[canadyjd]

I disagree. It is necessary. As Christians our hope and peace should not be in the fleeting things of this world.

But I have seen professing Christians utterly devastated when Biden became POTUS, or when a certain individual was elected sheriff.

Nothing....and I mean nothing...can destroy our peace because our peace is in Christ and we, while in this world, are not of this world.

It is absolutely necessary because it is a problem in our congregations today. Too many churches have become nothing more than political outlets (on both sides). Too many Christians are too invested in secular politics. And they are anxious for it.

You assume the very worst intention for a simple meme that says to control how you respond to things sent to destroy your peace.

That seems like good advice for all, Christian or non Christian.

But you suggest this meme is for Christians that have peace in the things of the world.

Absolutely nothing in that meme suggests a Christian’s peace is tied to the world. YOU make that connection.

Maybe you should spend a little time thinking about why you made that connection when none exist.

good night

Peace to you

 

[MrW]

Here are facts:

1. Hilary Clinton campaign paid for the Russian hoax dossier.

2. FBI, Commie and Struck and the rest, knew it was unverified political BS, but ran with it anyway. They spent the first two years of DT’s presidency undermining every effort he made, based on known lies. They lied to the FISA court. They changed documents. In essence, The FBI and DOJ, at the highest levels became dem operatives. To this very day, no one has been prosecuted for what are clear violations of federal law.

3. Smith is prosecuting DT for documents they could have collected without a “raid”. DT so arguing as POTUS, he could have them if he wanted. They are not prosecuting Biden for docs he kept unsecured in his garage that his crack head son had access to.

4. Prosecutors tried to give Hunter Biden a sweetheart deal which the judge refused to accept. They also deliberately allowed several tax fraud violations lapse due to statute of limitations.

I could go on and on. Folks see corruption at the DOJ/FBI. They see verified political bias at the highest levels, and they are upset. There is absolutely no way anyone with an IQ above room temperature could argue DT has been treated fairly by Fed LE.

I hope folks vote for change and I truly hope we get someone that will restore the integrity of LE at the fed level.

peace to you

Amen. And I hope it is Donald Trump who is elected.

I am so tired of double standards.

 

[MrW]

Those are facts. I agree.

But that does not justify Christians engaging in misinformation and conspiracy theories that hurt other people.

I also believe that the Left has weaponized our justice system. I mean, you have the FBI tracking down people for misdemeanors. At the same time felons were let go during the Floyd riots.

But as much distain I hold for the Left, I hold more for those in the conservative right who engage in misinformation.

The reason is I agree with the platform on the Right. I see the same problems they see with our government. But if the Right becomes just as immoral as the left (and it is on that path) then there will be no hope for our nation.

Put another way - I fully expect the Left to be anti-American, dishonest, etc. I just don't believe that "fighting fire with fire" is a winning move for the Right.

This isn’t the Kingdom.

Fire with fire is at times the only way.

I wish it weren’t, but we had to do it that way in WWI and WWII or we would be posting in German.

 

[JonC]

You assume the very worst intention for a simple meme that says to control how you respond to things sent to destroy your peace.

That seems like good advice for all, Christian or non Christian.

But you suggest this meme is for Christians that have peace in the things of the world.

Absolutely nothing in that meme suggests a Christian’s peace is tied to the world. YOU make that connection.

Maybe you should spend a little time thinking about why you made that connection when none exist.

good night

Peace to you

I took the meme at face value. You are ignoring that it was posted on a thread about Jan 6 following a discussion about how how the extreme right has relied on misinformation.

Context matters. Like showing up in riot gear and chemical spray for a protest. Carrying chemical spray walking in the woods where bears are present is different from carrying chemical spray to a protest.