More J6 need to know info

[JonC]

This isn’t the Kingdom.

Fire with fire is at times the only way.

I wish it weren’t, but we had to do it that way in WWI and WWII or we would be posting in German.

I disagree.

We are not to become ungodly to fight the ungodly (we do not fight evil with evil).

I believe that we are to be kingdom people. The kingdom is present in its people. We are faithful even when that faithfulness does not achieve a secular victory.

When we lie and cheat in order to defeat an enemy that lies and cheats then the we become no better than that enemy.

If the Right is legitimate then it would not have to use misinformation.

But more importantly, Christians are not to resort to evil in order to fight evil. We simply do not fight evil with evil.

 

[canadyjd]

I took the meme at face value. You are ignoring that it was posted on a thread about Jan 6 following a discussion about how how the extreme right has relied on misinformation.

Context matters. Like showing up in riot gear and chemical spray for a protest. Carrying chemical spray walking in the woods where bears are present is different from carrying chemical spray to a protest.

It is your constant discussion about Christians repeating misinformation. Every discussion comes back to your “spin” that a sizable portion of fellow Christians are believing/repeating misinformation.

Someone posts a meme that encourages us to control our reactions when people attempt to destroy our peace and you launch into a diatribe about Christians finding peace in the world instead of God. It isn’t there!

You are repeating government “spin” about these issues. This “spin” is coming from the same people that gave us the Russian Hoax, the Ukraine call hoax, the DT gets two scoops of ice cream but everyone else gets one scoop hoax, and on and on.

By your own definition, are you “sheeple”?

peace to you

(in God, not the world…. Just wanted to make it clear I’m talking about the peace that comes from Jesus not the world so you don’t accuse me of seeking peace in worldly things)

 

[JonC]

It is your constant discussion about Christians repeating misinformation.

Not at all.

There are legitimate concerns (@Reynolds has pointed out several). I agree that the Left is weaponizing the judicial system (against Trump and against those who were simply protesting in Jan 6). I also agree that there is a double standard when compared to the Floyd riots.

BUT I do speak up when Christians repeat misinformation. The reason is that I believe it is wrong for Christians to spread misinformation even if it is to "fight evil with evil".

Secular politics have made too many Christians forfeit Christ in their daily lives.


My view is that facts matter. Sure, the Left will repeat facts when it suits their agenda. That does not mean the Right should deny those facts (as you seem to suggest).

The only "spin" that I have repeated is that the Democrats are using the FBI as a weapon against those who support Trump. That is my assessment, but it is not the only conclusion. And it is not the position of the government.

Repeating actual facts, which is what I did, is not a "spin". Those I mentioned who have been sentenced to prison for their involvement in Jan 6 are evil people who are traitors, not patriots. That is based on fact.

But most were simply protesting and being given probation for daring to step in Capitol grounds is extreme.

 

[JonC]

@canadyjd ,

We need to look at "spin". Spin in terms of misinformation depends on an agenda.

The Left spins the riots of Jan 6 to be an insurrection.

The alt-right spins criminals who are by definition traitors and anti-patriots to be heros.

My agenda is to simply look at facts.

You suggest here that stating facts about a few of the men arrested is repeating government spin. I think that itself is misinformation (that you are attempting to ignore facts and hold to some type of subjective truth).

I have not made conclusions about Jan 6 as a whole.

The Left makes everybody there (and all who support Trump) out to be insurrectionists. The alt-Right makes all three to be patriots just protesting.

Both are equally wrong.

The facts show that most who went to hear Trump went to hear the speech. Many went to protest peacefully. But many (specifically two groups) went to riot.

Those who beat police officers, who planned to riot, who wanted to overthrow the government, who wanted to "kill Pence", who vandalized the US Capitol are criminals. They are not heros.

George Floyd was not a hero. Babbitt was not a hero (she was shot while engaged in criminal activities. A discussion can be had over the amount of force used in both cases, but the sheeple on each side are engaged in misinformation to make a criminal into a hero.

Facts matter.

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd ,

We need to look at "spin". Spin in terms of misinformation depends on an agenda.

The Left spins the riots of Jan 6 to be an insurrection.

The alt-right spins criminals who are by definition traitors and anti-patriots to be heros.

My agenda is to simply look at facts.

You suggest here that stating facts about a few of the men arrested is repeating government spin. I think that itself is misinformation (that you are attempting to ignore facts and hold to some type of subjective truth).

I have not made conclusions about Jan 6 as a whole.

The Left makes everybody there (and all who support Trump) out to be insurrectionists. The alt-Right makes all three to be patriots just protesting.

Both are equally wrong.

The facts show that most who went to hear Trump went to hear the speech. Many went to protest peacefully. But many (specifically two groups) went to riot.

Those who beat police officers, who planned to riot, who wanted to overthrow the government, who wanted to "kill Pence", who vandalized the US Capitol are criminals. They are not heros.

George Floyd was not a hero. Babbitt was not a hero (she was shot while engaged in criminal activities. A discussion can be had over the amount of force used in both cases, but the sheeple on each side are engaged in misinformation to make a criminal into a hero.

Facts matter.

So, this post is a great example of how you “spin”. My complaint about what you posted was mostly concerning the meme which stated we should control our reaction when folks try to destroy our peace. You put a “spin” on that meme that somehow it referred to Christians finding peace in the world. That just isn’t there.

You seem to use a very broad definition of “alt-right” to mean any conservative that opposes big government intrusion, blatant criminal activity by Fed LE, and or supports DT.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

So, this post is a great example of how you “spin”. My complaint about what you posted was mostly concerning the meme which stated we should control our reaction when folks try to destroy our peace. You put a “spin” on that meme that somehow it referred to Christians finding peace in the world. That just isn’t there.

You seem to use a very broad definition of “alt-right” to mean any conservative that opposes big government intrusion, blatant criminal activity by Fed LE, and or supports DT.

peace to you

I understand. You misunderstood my post and position.

Regarding my post, I am simply saying a peace in danger of being destroyed by statements is not a peace worth holding.

Regarding my position I am a conservative who opposes big government, supports Trump's platform (and believes he is at least one of the best Presidents we have had in my lifetime), and believe blatant criminal behavior should not be tolerated by Federal Law Enforcement Agencies. I believe the FBI needs to go (keep state agencies, if the state so desires). I believe the Department of Education needs to go (that is not a federal responsibility). I believe in a very limited federal government and a strong state government. I don't even believe the Federal government should be able to tax individual citizens.

What I term the alt-right is the extreme right that spreads misinformation to try to advance its agenda. I term traitors to the US as alt-right (our nation's political system is founded on compromise with the hope that the middle ground will best represent the will of the States as a whole). The alt-right seeks to destroy the nation of the nation as a whole disagrees with its ideologies).

But insofar as principles, I hold conservative Right views (and supported Trump when I voted).


The alt-right is not defined by support for Trump or the GOP. Rhodes is a member of the alt-right. He posted on his militia's site that he would turn his attention to what he need to do as the founder and leader of the Oath Keepers to prepare for what comes after Trump fails to do his duty. This was a detailed plan to overthrow the US Government by violence (also posted on the site).

The alt-right is a political ideology where the minority rules the nation for the nation's own good (as long as the minority holds their values).

 

[canadyjd]

I understand. You misunderstood my post and position.

Regarding my post, I am simply saying a peace in danger of being destroyed by statements is not a peace worth holding.

Regarding my position I am a conservative who opposes big government, supports Trump's platform (and believes he is at least one of the best Presidents we have had in my lifetime), and believe blatant criminal behavior should not be tolerated by Federal Law Enforcement Agencies. I believe the FBI needs to go (keep state agencies, if the state so desires). I believe the Department of Education needs to go (that is not a federal responsibility). I believe in a very limited federal government and a strong state government. I don't even believe the Federal government should be able to tax individual citizens.

What I term the alt-right is the extreme right that spreads misinformation to try to advance its agenda. I term traitors to the US as alt-right (our nation's political system is founded on compromise with the hope that the middle ground will best represent the will of the States as a whole). The alt-right seeks to destroy the nation of the nation as a whole disagrees with its ideologies).

But insofar as principles, I hold conservative Right views (and supported Trump when I voted).


The alt-right is not defined by support for Trump or the GOP. Rhodes is a member of the alt-right. He posted on his militia's site that he would turn his attention to what he need to do as the founder and leader of the Oath Keepers to prepare for what comes after Trump fails to do his duty. This was a detailed plan to overthrow the US Government by violence (also posted on the site).

The alt-right is a political ideology where the minority rules the nation for the nation's own good (as long as the minority holds their values).

Ok, thanks for clarifying. We agree on most everything politically and, I suspect, religiously.

I admit to being very suspect of Fed LE, especially when it comes to DT and his supporters. The last few years are filled with obvious abuse of power and blatant criminal activity by leadership in Fed LE with no consequences.

My advice is to be involved and vote. The alternative is apathy on the one hand and madness on the other.

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

Ok, thanks for clarifying. We agree on most everything politically and, I suspect, religiously.

I admit to being very suspect of Fed LE, especially when it comes to DT and his supporters. The last few years are filled with obvious abuse of power and blatant criminal activity by leadership in Fed LE with no consequences.

My advice is to be involved and vote. The alternative is apathy on the one hand and madness on the other.

Peace to you

I also think we agree politically and religiously.

Your conclusion that not being involved in secular politics equates to apathy or madness is incorrect.

I hesitate to advise people to be involved and vote. This is a matter I leave up to one's conscious and convictions. I do not vote (religious conviction). But I advocate people to prayerfully consider their voice, when to use it, and for whom.

I hope that those who do vote do so in accordance with Christian values. I think this would be for the GOP or an Independent candidate (my "hot topic", when I voted, was abortion...I am very anti-abortion).

But each person has to vote, or abstain from voting, in good conscious as obedience to God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Here are facts:

1. Hilary Clinton campaign paid for the Russian hoax dossier.

2. FBI, Commie and Struck and the rest, knew it was unverified political BS, but ran with it anyway. They spent the first two years of DT’s presidency undermining every effort he made, based on known lies. They lied to the FISA court. They changed documents. In essence, The FBI and DOJ, at the highest levels became dem operatives. To this very day, no one has been prosecuted for what are clear violations of federal law.

3. Smith is prosecuting DT for documents they could have collected without a “raid”. DT so arguing as POTUS, he could have them if he wanted. They are not prosecuting Biden for docs he kept unsecured in his garage that his crack head son had access to.

4. Prosecutors tried to give Hunter Biden a sweetheart deal which the judge refused to accept. They also deliberately allowed several tax fraud violations lapse due to statute of limitations.

I could go on and on. Folks see corruption at the DOJ/FBI. They see verified political bias at the highest levels, and they are upset. There is absolutely no way anyone with an IQ above room temperature could argue DT has been treated fairly by Fed LE.

I hope folks vote for change and I truly hope we get someone that will restore the integrity of LE at the fed level.

peace to you

And some of these things were once called a conspiracy theory

 

[MrW]

I disagree.

We are not to become ungodly to fight the ungodly (we do not fight evil with evil).

I believe that we are to be kingdom people. The kingdom is present in its people. We are faithful even when that faithfulness does not achieve a secular victory.

When we lie and cheat in order to defeat an enemy that lies and cheats then the we become no better than that enemy.

If the Right is legitimate then it would not have to use misinformation.

But more importantly, Christians are not to resort to evil in order to fight evil. We simply do not fight evil with evil.

I advocate toughness, not sin.

 

[JonC]

I advocate toughness, not sin.

I agree here (that Christians are to take a strong stance against sin).

But that isn't what we were talking about.

I was saying that Christians should not misinform or lie to advance a political agenda.

It was in this way I objected to fighting fire with fire.

When we lie, post misinformation, make criminals into heros, and spread false propaganda to feed the "sheeple" then we become just as much a problem as the Left.

I do not understand why so many on the Right cannot simply state facts (all of the facts). It seems to me that IF the Right is in the right that just relying on truth would bear that out.

What it appears (to me) is that the leaders of the extreme right does not truly believe their position. Otherwise they would not have to resort to misinformation. And the "sheeple" are willing participants (they ignore facts and simply repeat the propaganda they hear from their masters).


I gave several examples - Babbitt was not entering the hall....even though there are videos and photos showing her enter the hall. Rhodes was a peaceful protestor unjustly jailed....even though he posted that they were going to violently overthrow the government. Enrique Tarrio was just there to protest....even though he directed people to storm the Capitol and took credit for the riot. Dominic Pezzola was just a protestor....even though he attacked a police officer and broke windows out of the Capitol.


Both sides have their extremes elements that misinform their disciples to forward their agenda. It is these extreme elements that I reject.


I suspect you and I agree on the following:

1. Those who vandalized the Capital need to be charged.
2. Those who beat police officers need to be in prison.

 

[MrW]

I agree here (that Christians are to take a strong stance against sin).

But that isn't what we were talking about.

I was saying that Christians should not misinform or lie to advance a political agenda.

It was in this way I objected to fighting fire with fire.

When we lie, post misinformation, make criminals into heros, and spread false propaganda to feed the "sheeple" then we become just as much a problem as the Left.

I do not understand why so many on the Right cannot simply state facts (all of the facts). It seems to me that IF the Right is in the right that just relying on truth would bear that out.

What it appears (to me) is that the leaders of the extreme right does not truly believe their position. Otherwise they would not have to resort to misinformation. And the "sheeple" are willing participants (they ignore facts and simply repeat the propaganda they hear from their masters).


I gave several examples - Babbitt was not entering the hall....even though there are videos and photos showing her enter the hall. Rhodes was a peaceful protestor unjustly jailed....even though he posted that they were going to violently overthrow the government. Enrique Tarrio was just there to protest....even though he directed people to storm the Capitol and took credit for the riot. Dominic Pezzola was just a protestor....even though he attacked a police officer and broke windows out of the Capitol.


Both sides have their extremes elements that misinform their disciples to forward their agenda. It is these extreme elements that I reject.


I suspect you and I agree on the following:

1. Those who vandalized the Capital need to be charged.
2. Those who beat police officers need to be in prison.

I never watched the “hearings” because it was a TDS dem-orchestrated event.

Truthfully, I don’t know if Christians lied or not.

I do not know if any police were harmed.
I wasn’t there and haven’t watched any video for the reason above.

This is what I see from a distance, yet it’s still so obvious—there is a two-tiered “justice” system in America, getting wider and more disparate, it favors dems, it’s disgusting, Republicans are cowards and won’t stand against it, so I am not surprised ordinary people have started trying to stand against it. Last, being a conservative Republican doesn’t mean a person is an actual born again Christian, nor that he isn’t.

We just don’t KNOW who instigated and egged on that “mostly peaceful protest” (that’s what dems call riots with great destruction, looting, and even killing, and that event protesting a rigged election was less violent, and all should be exonerated, even as the rioters of 2020 were).

 

[JonC]

I never watched the “hearings” because it was a TDS dem-orchestrated event.

Truthfully, I don’t know if Christians lied or not.

I do not know if any police were harmed.
I wasn’t there and haven’t watched any video for the reason above.

This is what I see from a distance, yet it’s still so obvious—there is a two-tiered “justice” system in America, getting wider and more disparate, it favors dems, it’s disgusting, Republicans are cowards and won’t stand against it, so I am not surprised ordinary people have started trying to stand against it. Last, being a conservative Republican doesn’t mean a person is an actual born again Christian, nor that he isn’t.

We just don’t KNOW who instigated and egged on that “mostly peaceful protest” (that’s what dems call riots with great destruction, looting, and even killing, and that event protesting a rigged election was less violent, and all should be exonerated, even as the rioters of 2020 were).

I disagree. Just because injustice occurred with the Floyd riots is not a reason for injustice to occur on Jan 6.

Address the two-tiered justice system. But not by doing the same thing the Left does.

It is also a two-tiered justice system on the Right. Trump did have classified documents at his residence. So did Biden. An analyst was sentenced to prison for taking home classified documents (she wasn't selling them, but took them home to get ahead of work and left them there). But she was a little person ...like us.

We don't know who instigated the riot. But we do know a few who instigated it in part (and one who claimed credit for doing so).

I have no sympathy for anybody - regardless of political ideology - who attacks a police officer or who vandalized government buildings.

 

[canadyjd]

I disagree. Just because injustice occurred with the Floyd riots is not a reason for injustice to occur on Jan 6.

Address the two-tiered justice system. But not by doing the same thing the Left does.

It is also a two-tiered justice system on the Right. Trump did have classified documents at his residence. So did Biden. An analyst was sentenced to prison for taking home classified documents (she wasn't selling them, but took them home to get ahead of work and left them there). But she was a little person ...like us.

We don't know who instigated the riot. But we do know a few who instigated it in part (and one who claimed credit for doing so).

I have no sympathy for anybody - regardless of political ideology - who attacks a police officer or who vandalized government buildings.

DT was POTUS. He has legal access to the documents which he can declassify. The courts have not determined how far that goes, or if the documents he had are covered, but he DOES have a legal argument to have them in his possession.

Biden was VP and did NOT have a legal right to take documents (related to Ukraine) to his home and leave them unsecured in his garage where his crack addicted son, taking bribes from Ukrainian oligarchs, had access to and whoever else’his crack addicted son brought with him.

PLEASE do not try to make these cases the same. You are smarter than that.

Or… perhaps you are regurgitating the Dem “spin” on the documents, which is what it sounds like you are doing.

And let’s not forget, DT has been indicted for having the docs by the Biden justice department and Biden has been given a pass.

peace yo you

 

[JonC]

DT was POTUS. He has legal access to the documents which he can declassify. The courts have not determined how far that goes, or if the documents he had are covered, but he DOES have a legal argument to have them in his possession.

Biden was VP and did NOT have a legal right to take documents (related to Ukraine) to his home and leave them unsecured in his garage where his crack addicted son, taking bribes from Ukrainian oligarchs, had access to and whoever else’his crack addicted son brought with him.

PLEASE do not try to make these cases the same. You are smarter than that.

Or… perhaps you are regurgitating the Dem “spin” on the documents, which is what it sounds like you are doing.

And let’s not forget, DT has been indicted for having the docs by the Biden justice department and Biden has been given a pass.

peace yo you

Problem is he didn't actually declassify the doc (technically he could have by simply declaring it so....but there would be a record....there isn't....and in reality it is the information not the physical papers, hence the reason there is a record for declassification.....and yes, I've dealt with these types of information and classifications). But yes, he could have when he was President. And Obama could have for Biden.

I'm not getting into this tangent. My point is there is a two tiered justice system in more ways than one. And that is wrong.

But two wrongs won't make it right.

 

[JonC]

The bottom line (and my point here) is that Christians should not commit evil, repeat misinformation, speak lies, seek injustice etc in order to "fight fire with fire".

That is simply not our calling as children of God.

 

[canadyjd]

The bottom line (and my point here) is that Christians should not commit evil, repeat misinformation, speak lies, seek injustice etc in order to "fight fire with fire".

That is simply not our calling as children of God.

Then stop repeating the misinformation that Biden storing classified docs in his unsecured garage so his crack addicted son could have access to them is essentially the same as Former POTUS DT storing classified docs at Mara largo.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Then stop repeating the misinformation that Biden storing classified docs in his unsecured garage so his crack addicted son could have access to them is essentially the same as Former POTUS DT storing classified docs at Mara largo.

peace to you

I have not repeated misinformation. And I never said that those were the same (they were different, including how the documents were returned).

Stop repeating misinformation that I said they were the same.

Biden did have classified documents. I never claimed it was so that his son could have access to them. That would be an assumption.

Trump also had classified information. This was information that had not been declassified. So did Pence.

I am not saying that they should be tried. Trump was a bit different in that he didn't turn in those documents. But I am not even saying he needed to be charged.

I am saying that an analyst took classified documents home to work on them, repeatedly, and failed to turn them back in. She got 5 years in prison for mishandling classified documents.

 

[canadyjd]

….,
I am saying that an analyst took classified documents home to work on them, repeatedly, and failed to turn them back in. She got 5 years in prison for mishandling classified documents.

Why do you keep repeating this story? It is not relevant to this discussion. The analyst had no legal authority to take the documents. Again, POTUS does have legal authority to take documents. The VP does not. The analyst does not.

The incidents are not the same. By repeating this story you are spreading disinformation that DT should be treated like the analyst.

Additionally, unless you worked in the WH for a POTUS, your experience with classified docs is NOT the same.

DT says he declassified everything he took with him. By repeatedly stating he did not declassify the docs, you are not presenting all the facts, which is misinformation and demonstrates bias.

The courts will ultimately decide if he had the right to have the docs. Please give all the facts instead of posting your opinions as if they are facts.

peace to you

 

[MrW]

I disagree. Just because injustice occurred with the Floyd riots is not a reason for injustice to occur on Jan 6.

Address the two-tiered justice system. But not by doing the same thing the Left does.

It is also a two-tiered justice system on the Right. Trump did have classified documents at his residence. So did Biden. An analyst was sentenced to prison for taking home classified documents (she wasn't selling them, but took them home to get ahead of work and left them there). But she was a little person ...like us.

We don't know who instigated the riot. But we do know a few who instigated it in part (and one who claimed credit for doing so).

I have no sympathy for anybody - regardless of political ideology - who attacks a police officer or who vandalized government buildings.

Trump’s documents were locked up, guarded by Secret Service, not in an unlocked garage. No comparison.