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More liberty gone - NSA has YOUR records

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Magnetic Poles, May 11, 2006.

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  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Getting the records directly from the various phone companies is a short cut and probably saved millions of dollars in tax money...

    As for the 'why now'?

    Simple, when the news first came out their man could do no wrong so they didn't make note of it...

    Short (and faulty) memories...

    So, when someone brings the story to them now as far as their tired little (blank) minds can tell it's a completely new story...

    Note please that this doesn't exhonerate the total inaction on securing our borders...

    Nor, does it exhonerate the failure to take advantage of oppurtunites in Congress where stronger protections on personal data could have been taken...

    Ie., recourse and penalties for the Abuse, Misuse and unauthorized disclosure of citizens personal data...

    This is troubling...

    Why avoid securing the borders?

    Why avoid assuring the citizenry that steps are in place to not only protect our data... But, give us recourse...

    Unless we are no more than fuedal serfs to them, about to be sold down the river to become global serfs?!

    Even so COME! Lord jesus...

    (And, hurry!)

    SMM
     
    #101 SpiritualMadMan, May 12, 2006
  2. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Carpro, who do you think is misleading me? LOL

    SMM...you and carpro have said this is old news. Got any links to back that up?
     
    #102 Magnetic Poles, May 12, 2006
  3. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Dec. 24, 2005 New York Times

    "As part of the program approved by President Bush for domestic surveillance without warrants, the N.S.A. has gained the cooperation of American telecommunications companies to obtain backdoor access to streams of domestic and international communications, the officials said."

    Dec. 25, 2005 LA Times

    "AT&T has a database code-named Daytona that keeps track of phone numbers on both ends of calls as well as the duration of all land-line calls.... After Sept. 11, intelligence agencies began to view it as a potential investigative tool, and the NSA has had a direct hookup into the database...."


    Jan., 2006


    James Risen in "State of War: the Secret History...

    NSA's technical prowess, coupled with its long-standing relationships with the nation's major telecommunications companies, has made it easy for the agency to eavesdrop on large numbers of people in the United States without their knowledge. Following President Bush's order, U.S. intelligence officials secretly arranged with top officials of major telecommunications companies to gain access to large telecommunications switches carrying the bulk of America's phone calls. The NSA also gained access to the vast majority of American e-mail traffic that flows through the U.S. telecommunications system. ...


    As I said...

    Old recycled news.
     
    #103 carpro, May 12, 2006
  4. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    OK, there is a hint of what was going on, and apparently I missed seeing that. However, it doesn't state that this was a giant database of EVERY CALL made through said switches. Had I seen it then, I'd be just as against it then as now. Only now we know it is worse than earlier reported.

    I rarely have anything good to say about Qwest, but God bless 'em, they stood up to the NSA where others did not. Time for the other telecom companies to grow a backbone.
     
    #104 Magnetic Poles, May 12, 2006
  5. jet11

    jet11 Member

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    There is no doubt why the news was recycled (maximum damage with the upcoming elections and President's approval rating).

    However, it was news to me. I am against the domestic angle this has taken. There is too much potential to abuse this intelligence. I do not see the need for gathering any domestic information. I do see the need to monitor suspected international calls to and from known terrorist numbers.

    This combined with the complete lack of leadership on the borders has seriously undermined my confidence in this administration.
     
    #105 jet11, May 12, 2006
  6. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    How clear does it have to be?

    Daytona keeps track of phone numbers on both ends of "all land-line calls". The NSA has been tapping it for years and it has been public knowledge for 5 months.

    This is another recycled story just to keep the pot stirred. [​IMG]
     
    #106 carpro, May 12, 2006
  7. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Carpro do you have any active links?

    I'll admit eavesdrop has a bad connotation...

    But, eavesdrop how?

    You'd have to have a rather large contingent of agents to humanly eavesdrop on every call in America...

    Even using computer word recognition the task would be daunting just screen for key words...

    Especially in every conceivable language...

    I'm guessing that the logistics alone would rival the total expenditure in Iraq to date...

    I believe the reports that it's call logs and routing information that's being keep domestically...

    Phone Numbers, Times and Dates... No More at this time...

    SMM

    from the LA Times
    From ABC News
    Long but interesting article from Boston Globe
    http://business.bostonherald.com/technologyNews/view.bg?articleid=138980

    Yeah, I'll bet they are...

    The bottom line is I am not sure that Secrecy is helping NSA on this issue at all because the actual 'data' has been defined by so many different news stories that no one outside the agency seems to know what their talking about...

    And, the Agancy ain't talkin...
     
    #107 SpiritualMadMan, May 12, 2006
  8. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Carpro, of course AT&T has a database of their calls. They have to in order to render invoices. But that doesn't mean that they should hand it over to the Government. You make enjoy and America that spies on its citizens without reasonable cause. I maintain that is unAmerican activity and counter to the fourth amendment.
     
    #108 Magnetic Poles, May 12, 2006
  9. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    I just had a thought...

    As always, it boils down to the almighty dollar. The telecom firms involved all have contracts with the feds. They don't want to be left out when the next bid comes up, so "hey, let's give them what they want".
     
    #109 Magnetic Poles, May 12, 2006
  10. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Let me be sure I understand this ...

    You object to the NSA collecting a database of phone numbers with no names attached and no recorded conversations.

    But you don't object to AT&T collecting the same data including names and no recorded conversations.

    Is there something wrong with that picture?

    Sounds like AT&T is being far more intrusive than the NSA... and apparently you don't mind that. :confused:

    And you actually believe AT&T doesn't sell all or at least bits and pieces of that info to the highest bidder?
     
    #110 carpro, May 12, 2006
  11. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    There is a legitimate business purpose. How could AT&T bill their customers without knowing what they bought and who they are? There are legal and constitutional issues with the government procuring this data without warrants, notably the fourth amendment.

    As a common carrier, AT&T is held to privacy standards. Telecom companies have very strict regulations, and the safeguarding of customer data from warrantless government requests is one of the foundations of the business.

    As for selling customer data, many companies do, and I am very much opposed, however, the government is another story altogether.
     
    #111 Magnetic Poles, May 12, 2006
  12. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    So in this particular case, you actually are trusting a CORPORATION and their "legitimate business interests" with your privacy but not the government in thier efforts to keep you alive by ferreting out terrorists?

    :confused:
     
    #112 carpro, May 12, 2006
  13. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Good points, all.
     
    #113 tragic_pizza, May 12, 2006
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    If the government was serious about ferreting out terrorists, then terrorists couldn't walk across our borders without so much of a "how do you do" as they can now.
     
    #114 KenH, May 12, 2006
  15. JFox1

    JFox1 New Member

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    Here is part of the NSA Q & A from the May 11, 2006, issue of the USA Today:

    Q. What is the NSA doing?

    A. The NSA collected "call-detail" records. That's telephone industry lingo for the numbers being dialed. Phone customers' names, addresses and other personal information are not being collected as part of this program. THE AGENCY, HOWEVER, HAS THE MEANS TO ASSEMBLE THAT SORT OF INFORMATION, IF IT SO CHOOSES. (Emphasis mine).

    The last answer is also a kicker:

    Q. Who has access to my records?

    A. Unclear. The NSA routinely provides its analysis and other cryptological work to the Pentagon and other government agencies.

    Don't you feel safe that your data is being passed through a number of government agencies? NOT!!!!! :eek:
     
    #115 JFox1, May 12, 2006
  16. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    AMEN!
    SMM
     
    #116 SpiritualMadMan, May 12, 2006
  17. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Let me quote from two paragraphs of the Telecommunications Act of 1996:

    AND

    As I mentioned, common carriers have always held customer privacy as sacrosanct, both by law and by ethics. However, it seems the fear of the NSA intimidated them this time.
     
    #117 Magnetic Poles, May 12, 2006
  18. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    The key here is:
    As long as the Names or SSAN aren't included it, technically, doesn't violate the Law...

    At least that's the understanding I have...

    And, what is "proprietary" these days to a court of law?

    Ask that of famous people who have had their name cyber-squatted and held for ranson...

    As I said, oppurtunities to strengthen and clarify protections were ignored...

    SMM
     
    #118 SpiritualMadMan, May 12, 2006
  19. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    SMM, I think that your telephone number on any particular date in question is personally identifiable. Why else do people opt for unpublished numbers?
     
    #119 Magnetic Poles, May 12, 2006
  20. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    It used to be so that telemarketters couldn't call...

    And, so your enemy's couldn't look up your Name & Address come for a visit or call you at all hours of the night...

    In this case it is the NAME that was the key not the phone number...

    Getting an Unlisted or Non-Published Number today is still valid for keeping unwelcome guests away...

    But, unfortunately, telemarketters use sequential auto-dialers which transfer to a human if a connection is made.

    Telemarketters don't care who they are calling only that a potential customer is at the other end...

    SMM
     
    #120 SpiritualMadMan, May 12, 2006
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