More liberty gone - NSA has YOUR records

[SpiritualMadMan]

Getting the records directly from the various phone companies is a short cut and probably saved millions of dollars in tax money...

As for the 'why now'?

Simple, when the news first came out their man could do no wrong so they didn't make note of it...

Short (and faulty) memories...

So, when someone brings the story to them now as far as their tired little (blank) minds can tell it's a completely new story...

Note please that this doesn't exhonerate the total inaction on securing our borders...

Nor, does it exhonerate the failure to take advantage of oppurtunites in Congress where stronger protections on personal data could have been taken...

Ie., recourse and penalties for the Abuse, Misuse and unauthorized disclosure of citizens personal data...

This is troubling...

Why avoid securing the borders?

Why avoid assuring the citizenry that steps are in place to not only protect our data... But, give us recourse...

Unless we are no more than fuedal serfs to them, about to be sold down the river to become global serfs?!

Even so COME! Lord jesus...

(And, hurry!)

SMM

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Carpro, who do you think is misleading me? LOL

SMM...you and carpro have said this is old news. Got any links to back that up?

 

[carpro]

Dec. 24, 2005 New York Times

"As part of the program approved by President Bush for domestic surveillance without warrants, the N.S.A. has gained the cooperation of American telecommunications companies to obtain backdoor access to streams of domestic and international communications, the officials said."

Dec. 25, 2005 LA Times

"AT&T has a database code-named Daytona that keeps track of phone numbers on both ends of calls as well as the duration of all land-line calls.... After Sept. 11, intelligence agencies began to view it as a potential investigative tool, and the NSA has had a direct hookup into the database...."


Jan., 2006


James Risen in "State of War: the Secret History...

NSA's technical prowess, coupled with its long-standing relationships with the nation's major telecommunications companies, has made it easy for the agency to eavesdrop on large numbers of people in the United States without their knowledge. Following President Bush's order, U.S. intelligence officials secretly arranged with top officials of major telecommunications companies to gain access to large telecommunications switches carrying the bulk of America's phone calls. The NSA also gained access to the vast majority of American e-mail traffic that flows through the U.S. telecommunications system. ...


As I said...

Old recycled news.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

OK, there is a hint of what was going on, and apparently I missed seeing that. However, it doesn't state that this was a giant database of EVERY CALL made through said switches. Had I seen it then, I'd be just as against it then as now. Only now we know it is worse than earlier reported.

I rarely have anything good to say about Qwest, but God bless 'em, they stood up to the NSA where others did not. Time for the other telecom companies to grow a backbone.

 

[jet11]

There is no doubt why the news was recycled (maximum damage with the upcoming elections and President's approval rating).

However, it was news to me. I am against the domestic angle this has taken. There is too much potential to abuse this intelligence. I do not see the need for gathering any domestic information. I do see the need to monitor suspected international calls to and from known terrorist numbers.

This combined with the complete lack of leadership on the borders has seriously undermined my confidence in this administration.

 

[carpro]

How clear does it have to be?

Daytona keeps track of phone numbers on both ends of "all land-line calls". The NSA has been tapping it for years and it has been public knowledge for 5 months.

This is another recycled story just to keep the pot stirred.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Carpro do you have any active links?

I'll admit eavesdrop has a bad connotation...

But, eavesdrop how?

You'd have to have a rather large contingent of agents to humanly eavesdrop on every call in America...

Even using computer word recognition the task would be daunting just screen for key words...

Especially in every conceivable language...

I'm guessing that the logistics alone would rival the total expenditure in Iraq to date...

I believe the reports that it's call logs and routing information that's being keep domestically...

Phone Numbers, Times and Dates... No More at this time...

SMM

from the LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ay12,1,5229393.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

As part of the data-collection operation, USA Today reported, AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth have given customers' records to the NSA. The records reportedly include phone numbers and the times calls are made, but not customers' names. The names are readily available elsewhere, however.

From ABC News

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1953612&page=1

"This is all being done by machine," said Bryan Cunningham, a former CIA legal adviser. "There's nobody at NSA who's sitting around reading these records. I think most Americans would say if you're looking for links in the data and you don't have my name and it's a machine not a person, what's the problem?"

Americans make about 890,000 calls every minute, so that's a lot of phone calls to go through. President Bush says the government is only looking for specific information.

Long but interesting article from Boston Globe
http://business.bostonherald.com/technologyNews/view.bg?articleid=138980

http://ktla.trb.com/news/ktla-techprivacy,0,6106113.story?coll=ktla-news-1

Former NSA Director Bob Inman said the use of telephone and other databases might not have violated privacy rights. That's because the initial explorations were automated and personal information wouldn't have spread any further in most cases — a position supported by a former Bush administration official familiar with the monitoring program.

"Computers may have sorted through hundreds of millions of messages without a person ever seeing it. So no one's e-mail or phone call has been compromised," Inman said. "The problem only starts when the information goes to an analyst to read."

Legal experts were less sanguine.

Yeah, I'll bet they are...

The bottom line is I am not sure that Secrecy is helping NSA on this issue at all because the actual 'data' has been defined by so many different news stories that no one outside the agency seems to know what their talking about...

And, the Agancy ain't talkin...

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Carpro, of course AT&T has a database of their calls. They have to in order to render invoices. But that doesn't mean that they should hand it over to the Government. You make enjoy and America that spies on its citizens without reasonable cause. I maintain that is unAmerican activity and counter to the fourth amendment.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I just had a thought...

As always, it boils down to the almighty dollar. The telecom firms involved all have contracts with the feds. They don't want to be left out when the next bid comes up, so "hey, let's give them what they want".

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
Carpro, of course AT&T has a database of their calls. They have to in order to render invoices. But that doesn't mean that they should hand it over to the Government. You make enjoy and America that spies on its citizens without reasonable cause. I maintain that is unAmerican activity and counter to the fourth amendment.

Let me be sure I understand this ...

You object to the NSA collecting a database of phone numbers with no names attached and no recorded conversations.

But you don't object to AT&T collecting the same data including names and no recorded conversations.

Is there something wrong with that picture?

Sounds like AT&T is being far more intrusive than the NSA... and apparently you don't mind that.

And you actually believe AT&T doesn't sell all or at least bits and pieces of that info to the highest bidder?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

There is a legitimate business purpose. How could AT&T bill their customers without knowing what they bought and who they are? There are legal and constitutional issues with the government procuring this data without warrants, notably the fourth amendment.

As a common carrier, AT&T is held to privacy standards. Telecom companies have very strict regulations, and the safeguarding of customer data from warrantless government requests is one of the foundations of the business.

As for selling customer data, many companies do, and I am very much opposed, however, the government is another story altogether.

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
There is a legitimate business purpose. How could AT&T bill their customers without knowing what they bought and who they are? There are legal and constitutional issues with the government procuring this data without warrants, notably the fourth amendment.

As a common carrier, AT&T is held to privacy standards. Telecom companies have very strict regulations, and the safeguarding of customer data from warrantless government requests is one of the foundations of the business.

As for selling customer data, many companies do, and I am very much opposed, however, the government is another story altogether.

So in this particular case, you actually are trusting a CORPORATION and their "legitimate business interests" with your privacy but not the government in thier efforts to keep you alive by ferreting out terrorists?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
There is a legitimate business purpose. How could AT&T bill their customers without knowing what they bought and who they are? There are legal and constitutional issues with the government procuring this data without warrants, notably the fourth amendment.

As a common carrier, AT&T is held to privacy standards. Telecom companies have very strict regulations, and the safeguarding of customer data from warrantless government requests is one of the foundations of the business.

As for selling customer data, many companies do, and I am very much opposed, however, the government is another story altogether.

Good points, all.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by carpro:
the government in thier efforts to keep you alive by ferreting out terrorists?

If the government was serious about ferreting out terrorists, then terrorists couldn't walk across our borders without so much of a "how do you do" as they can now.

 

[JFox1]

Here is part of the NSA Q & A from the May 11, 2006, issue of the USA Today:

Q. What is the NSA doing?

A. The NSA collected "call-detail" records. That's telephone industry lingo for the numbers being dialed. Phone customers' names, addresses and other personal information are not being collected as part of this program. THE AGENCY, HOWEVER, HAS THE MEANS TO ASSEMBLE THAT SORT OF INFORMATION, IF IT SO CHOOSES. (Emphasis mine).

The last answer is also a kicker:

Q. Who has access to my records?

A. Unclear. The NSA routinely provides its analysis and other cryptological work to the Pentagon and other government agencies.

Don't you feel safe that your data is being passed through a number of government agencies? NOT!!!!!

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by KenH:
If the government was serious about ferreting out terrorists, then terrorists couldn't walk across our borders without so much of a "how do you do" as they can now.

AMEN!
SMM

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Let me quote from two paragraphs of the Telecommunications Act of 1996:

SEC. 702. PRIVACY OF CUSTOMER INFORMATION.
Title II is amended by inserting after section 221 (47 U.S.C.
221) the following new section:
`SEC. 222. PRIVACY OF CUSTOMER INFORMATION.
`(a) IN GENERAL- Every telecommunications carrier has a duty to
protect the confidentiality of proprietary information of, and
relating to, other telecommunication carriers, equipment
manufacturers, and customers, including telecommunication carriers
reselling telecommunications services provided by a
telecommunications carrier.

AND

`(c) CONFIDENTIALITY OF CUSTOMER PROPRIETARY NETWORK INFORMATION-
`(1) PRIVACY REQUIREMENTS FOR TELECOMMUNICATIONS CARRIERS-
Except as required by law or with the approval of the customer,
a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains customer
proprietary network information by virtue of its provision of a
telecommunications service shall only use, disclose, or permit
access to individually identifiable customer proprietary
network information in its provision of (A) the
telecommunications service from which such information is
derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used in, the
provision of such telecommunications service, including the
publishing of directories.

As I mentioned, common carriers have always held customer privacy as sacrosanct, both by law and by ethics. However, it seems the fear of the NSA intimidated them this time.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

The key here is:

individually identifiable customer proprietary network information

As long as the Names or SSAN aren't included it, technically, doesn't violate the Law...

At least that's the understanding I have...

And, what is "proprietary" these days to a court of law?

Ask that of famous people who have had their name cyber-squatted and held for ranson...

As I said, oppurtunities to strengthen and clarify protections were ignored...

SMM

 

[Magnetic Poles]

SMM, I think that your telephone number on any particular date in question is personally identifiable. Why else do people opt for unpublished numbers?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

It used to be so that telemarketters couldn't call...

And, so your enemy's couldn't look up your Name & Address come for a visit or call you at all hours of the night...

In this case it is the NAME that was the key not the phone number...

Getting an Unlisted or Non-Published Number today is still valid for keeping unwelcome guests away...

But, unfortunately, telemarketters use sequential auto-dialers which transfer to a human if a connection is made.

Telemarketters don't care who they are calling only that a potential customer is at the other end...

SMM