More liberty gone - NSA has YOUR records

[carpro]

Consider it done.

I am hereby quoting the entire Constitution and nowhere in it does it prevent the gathering of phone numbers.

 

[KenH]

I guess I am old-fashioned, carpro, but I am looking for a "thus saith the constitution".

 

[carpro]

So your contention is that, since the gathering of phone numbers is not specifically authorized by the Constitution, it is illegal?

 

[emeraldctyangel]

Originally posted by poncho:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by emeraldctyangel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Phillip:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by poncho:
I really don't see what the big fuss here is all about now. This spying on citizens business was made public years ago, ESHELON, Project Shamrock and Minaret, Canivore, cointelpro etc. From the reaction here you'd think this was all some kind of new news or something.

This is how it works, if the government wants to do something illegal or unethical to us they just do it, then they anounce it later with some spin, (we only wanna protect you from the ____, it's for your own good or whatever) then they have a big theatrical lefty vs righty debate in the media and congress then they make it legal.

Okay, so you don't like the left---you don't like the right. You don't like anything in between (maybe I dunno, tell me). If you could make THREE major changes to the government only to fix the problems, please be specific and make the list and tell us what you would do. THis is not really for debate---just trying to understand what you would LIKE in place.

I'm doing this exercise so that we get away from so much theory discussion and discuss what exactly can be done to make it the government that would provide you with the rights you want and still be fair to the rest of the population.

Are you game to try this little exercise so we can see where it goes? I promise to keep an open mind and not slam your ideas until you get a chance to explain why or answer questions about the changes that I may ask. How about it? I think this might be kinda fun for all of us. (Maybe we need to start a new thread?) Three changes you would make to FIX the government? an idea? Tell me if you think this exercise might shed some real-world light on what we believe and how we can fix the problems we perceive. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe there should be a thread devoted just for conspiracy theories, one for ranting about nothing really, and another for posting prayers for the unhappy Christians who use those threads?

Ive found that most just want to complain, and never have the responsibility of fixing that which they moan and groan about. I want to know why that is.

Did anyone stop to think that if they actually got out there and did something (posting on the internet doesnt count), that perhaps they would actually get more accomplished than those who sit back on their hands and claim to be injured?

I guess it is too easy to just sit there.

As long as you think the way youve always thought, you will always be what you always were. </font>[/QUOTE]Did you ever stop to wonder if maybe I have done more than just post on an internet forum? I imagine it's more soothing to your mind while your out there defending the United Nations charter to think that those actually defending the United States Constitution are looney tunes or traitors. But that's okay you can't help yourself. I understand that. </font>[/QUOTE]All evidence to the contrary my friend. You protest way too much for that statement to be true. It is okay, you are typical if anything and you illustrated my point of all talk and no action quite nicely.

I do have to correct you in your misquotation of my oath of enlistment - if you werent so busy posting nonsense you might have realized at some point in your journey that we 'swear to defend the Constitution of the United States and to obey the orders of those appointed over us'.

I dont think I could care less about an organization calling itself the United Nations, that gets itself involved in things like oil for "food" propositions when genocide is going on right under their noses, and they just watch...just in case you missed Ben's other post - I am referring to Darfur.

My mind and heart, as always, is soothed by prayer and salvation through Jesus Christ.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by carpro:
So your contention is that, since the gathering of phone numbers is not specifically authorized by the Constitution, it is illegal?

It is illegal, without cause for suspicion and a warrant, based on the the Fourth Amendment.

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by carpro:
So your contention is that, since the gathering of phone numbers is not specifically authorized by the Constitution, it is illegal?

It is illegal, without cause for suspicion and a warrant, based on the the Fourth Amendment. </font>[/QUOTE]How so?

 

[KenH]

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[emeraldctyangel]

Hmm. The government didnt steal the mail from the mailbox or off the kitchen table.

 

[KenH]

That's probably next.

 

[KenH]

A telephone company has my call information - which is needed for them to bill me. It is information about my activities. Therefore, it should not be turned over to the government without my release, or without the government having probable cause to look at the information with a warrant.

 

[emeraldctyangel]

According to you. Not the Constitution.

Stealing mail is a federal offense, punishable by a $5000 dollars fine and 5 years minimum for *each* offense.

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by KenH:
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It will be doubly hard to make a 4th Amendment issue out of this when no names are being accumulated, just numbers.

Additionally, your stretch interpretation on this matter, even if it applies, will not overrule the Presidents powers under the 2nd amendment.

Just as was the case under the so called "warrantless eavesdropping" matter.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by carpro:
Just as was the case under the so called "warrantless eavesdropping" matter.

That was unconstitutional as well. With both of these instances added together I am now firmly on the side of those who advocate the impeachment of President Bush, regardless of his nice gesture of allowing Air Force One to be used for the puppy air lift.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by emeraldctyangel:
According to you. Not the Constitution.

It doesn't matter what I think. According to the federal constitution this activity is unconstitutional.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by carpro:
The sky is always falling somewhere and to some people.

This is an entirely legal activity, just like the "warrantless eavesdropping" bruhaha.

Amen, Brother Carpro -- Preach it!

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

I've been prayerfully working these issues for 30 years.
Yet all some people want to do is gripe about it.
This current issue seems to boil down to:

The NSA was caught doing it's job.
The Liberal press is on a witch hunt.
The knee-jerk arch-conservatives (more conservative
than D.W.Bush) are up in arms.

Recall that the NSA started under the admnistration
of conservative Democrat Harry Truman.

Amen, Brother Ed -- Preach it!

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Recall that the NSA started under the admnistration
of conservative Democrat Harry Truman.

Please don't defame Truman, Bro. Ed. He was anti-communist but was a true liberal.

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by carpro:
Just as was the case under the so called "warrantless eavesdropping" matter.

That was unconstitutional as well. </font>[/QUOTE]Not according to the FISA appeals court. But maybe you know something they don't.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

No names, just numbers? How easy a match is that to make?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by carpro:
Not according to the FISA appeals court.

Yeah, one part of Leviathan approving an unconstitutional action by another part of Leviathan.

 

[Revmitchell]

Absolutely no one has been eavsdropping on peoples conversations. Their has been no wiretapping.

The only thing that has been done is to see who the terrorists have been calling in the United States.

In order for your number to become part of their investigation you have to receive a call froma terrorist. Also, members of congress, both democrat and republican have been informed of these activities from day one. The oversite has been handled through members of congress. To have the dems ignore this is and fail to confess their oversite in order to leave the President hanging is treasoness.

The bottom line here is there is nothing to gripe about. No laws have been broken, no wire taps have occured, and over site of the investigation of the phone records has been had by both dems and repubs.