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Most drinkers are moderate

Luke2427

Active Member
You are totally POSSESSED by this drinking issue. More and
more threads about drinking, and you are the one who
starts them.

Why don't you stop preaching about drinking and start preaching
about Jesus?? There's definitely more validity to that message!

Why don't you stop screaming and ignore the thread if you don't want to talk about it?

Or better yet why don't you try to make an argument in support of or against the SUBJECT Of THE THREAD- which I think is the GENERAL IDEA of this thing?

I preach Jesus in my pulpit CONSTANTLY.

This is a debate site and the members are not parishioners of a church. They are supposed to be knowledgeable Christians who seek to work out difficult issues through debate.

This segment of the site is called Baptist DEBATE forums. That kind of gives one the impression that what's generally supposed to go on here is DEBATE.

Demanding that what we do on baptistboard be what we do in our church ministries- particularly our pulpit ministries- is a bit silly, in my opinion.
 
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dcorbett

Active Member
Site Supporter
I am not screaming. My argument is this: More about Jesus, less about
beer. That is what this world needs.


Again, done with this thread. I stopped posting in your other myriad of
beer promos.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I am not screaming. My argument is this: More about Jesus, less about
beer. That is what this world needs.


Again, done with this thread. I stopped posting in your other myriad of
beer promos.

There really ought to be a rule against this kind of thing, in my opinion.

Each post ought to make an argument concerning the OP or at least be an item of fellowship RELATED to the OP.

I find your popping in here and sniping to be inflammatory and insulting and I love how people who do this kind of thing lecture ME on civility.

Your post insinuates that I do not preach Jesus.

Your post assumes that all we are supposed to debate on here is stuff directly related to the person of Jesus.

Then you, I think pompously, rebuke me like you are my mother and I am some child to be corrected.

I think that's silly and unspeakably presumptuous.
 
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Arbo

Active Member
Site Supporter
There really ought to be a rule against this kind of thing, in my opinion.

Each post ought to make an argument concerning the OP or at least be an item of fellowship RELATED to the OP.

I find your popping in here and sniping to be inflammatory and insulting and I love how people who do this kind of thing lecture ME on civility.

Your post insinuates that I do not preach Jesus.

Your post assumes that all we are supposed to debate on here is stuff directly related to the person of Jesus.

Then you, I think pompously, rebuke me like you are my mother and I am some child to be corrected.

I think that's silly and unspeakably presumptuous.

Have you been drinking?
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Polls like that are ok, but it doesn't break it down to the U.S., and that is where we live. I suspect the percentage is higher in the U.S., given the testimonies of how other countries drink so responsibly. Once we have a number in the U.S., I would like to see how many claim to be Christians.

Here are some stats that address what you ask for:

More than half of all Americans aged 12 or older report that they are current drinkers. In the latest national survey, 51.9% of those surveyed said they were current drinkers, or an estimate 130.6 million people.


For most adults, moderate alcohol use is not harmful. However, nearly 17.6 million adults in the United States are alcoholics or have alcohol problems. Alcoholism is a disease with four main features:

Age structure

(2007 est.)

# 20−64 years: 60.1% (male 89,881,041; female 90,813,578)
# 65 years and over: 12.6% (male 15,858,477; female 21,991,195)


So if there are roughly 250 million people in America 12 years old and older and HALF of them drink that's roughly 175 million drinkers.

Out of roughly 175 million drinkers only 17.6 million are alcoholics.

So the stat is consistent with other nations and the world trends. About NINETY PERCENT of people who drink in America are NOT ALCOHOLICS.

So when a preacher preaches that there is this TERRIBLE danger for the Christian who only ever wants to drink moderately- it's bull.

Of the 17.6 million alcoholics- how many of them do you suppose NEVER SET OUT TO DRINK MODERATELY? Most of them, if not ALL of them, SET OUT TO party hard and hang at bars with drunks and get soused.

THAT'S how you become an alcoholic- not by drinking moderately only with other people who drink moderately.

The teetotalism danger myth is a farce.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
My point:



You seem to be angry and looking for a fight with your recent threads about alcohol, to the point that one wonders what's behind it.

I'm always looking for a fight against phariseeism.

I think we are supposed to. (Note that phariseeism is a philosophy- THAT'S what we are to fight against. I'm not fighting people- I'm fighting against their philosophy)

I honestly think it is very clear that preaching that the moderate consumption of alcohol is a sin is phariseeism.

And I grew up hearing that if you set out to drink moderately you are playing with fire- that chances are you are going to become a drunkard.

The stats prove unequivocally that that is just utterly false.
 

Bob Alkire

New Member
I will admit that I have no use for alcohol, seen to much bad from it. I will also say two men I know have a glass of scotch each day before supper and one after supper, and they are fine Christian men.
A small sampler of why I don't care for drink;
3 wrecks in my front yard, one had a death, one the driver lost his leg and the other just messed up the car and my yard.
I have lost 2 family members due to being hit by a DWI driver.
I had a DWI driver kill her self by hitting my trailer while I was parked.
Over the last 10 years I have seen two pastors, 5 youth pastors and 5 ministers of music get DWI's down here. That isn't a good picture of the church.
But with that said, I believe for you to drink or not is your call not mine and not to drink would be like wise.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm always looking for a fight against phariseeism.

I think we are supposed to. (Note that phariseeism is a philosophy- THAT'S what we are to fight against. I'm not fighting people- I'm fighting against their philosophy)

I honestly think it is very clear that preaching that the moderate consumption of alcohol is a sin is phariseeism.

And I grew up hearing that if you set out to drink moderately you are playing with fire- that chances are you are going to become a drunkard.

The stats prove unequivocally that that is just utterly false.



So let me get this straight....you believe that by starting threads on a forum on the internet you are "fighting against phariseeism?" :laugh:

How is that working for ya?

Are you done yet? :laugh:
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
One of the great myths propagated by many teetotalism preachers is that all should abstain from drinking ANY AT ALL because it is so dangerously addictive and you are so VERY likely to become an alcoholic if you ever take the first drink.

I have never heard any preacher say that you are VERY LIKELY to become an alcoholic if you take one drink. I have heard many times that the person that takes their first drink never think they will become an alcoholic.

So....
**Moderator note** Implanted icons cannot exceed size of BB logo

Also, considering the outcomes of what alcoholism does to people, a 10% rate of alcoholism is edging into the dangerous area. I say this as a moderate drinker. Your arguments aren't convincing. Please stop it, I don't want you on my side of this issue.
 
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Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That fact many people drink on a regular basis does not logically support the reasoning in an argument that it is not harmful or should be used.

The stating from the Op that 95% do not become “alcoholics” is being based on a biased ambiguous term and does not logically support the reasoning in an argument that it is not harmful or should be used.

If one can’t “easily” stop drinking starting tomorrow and cannot continue to not drink comfortably for an extended amount of time and be able live without becoming emotionally stressed because of this action then there is significant merit to that they are indeed struggling at a level of addiction to alcohol that would fit my definition of one being an alcoholic.

Out of the many people that I could observe and recognize as having the stereotypical characteristics of a regular drinker before any word about alcohol is mentioned I would guess that less than 5% would consider themselves an alcoholic. Again:

IOW’s these people drink enough that I can recognize these characteristics yet I can tell you with certainty that almost all these people would not admit to being an alcoholic or to alcoholism *.

*-ism - A distinctive practice, system, or philosophy,…
My religious belief does not advocate that one should not drink at all. But my values which come from religious beliefs do often separate my definition from others when it comes to defining “moderate” use of alcohol because of the obvious influences on one’s nature, their spirit - their reasoning and judgment being altered and coming from this substance which, believe or not, I have come to recognize. What I would consider common sense is that alcohol is abused in the world at epidemic proportions and that is enough to speak out against and warn of its use.

I would not be pharisaical about warning others not to drink or dogmatic about the Bible saying it is a sin but even if someone else is preaching such it does not justify the use of alcohol in any way nor does such take away from that the obvious harmful, life altering effects should honestly be considered by every individual. Much more personal responsibility should be expected to come from a Christian in this matter, especially a leader of the flock in this area in that he has been practically informed and wanting to bring about and teach how to achieve the healthiest results rather than be motivated to be acting to condone his own ways or possible – and obviously probable shortcomings. I am very understanding that pastors are human like everyone else but I do expect them to strive for a higher standard and to try to present a good and reasonable example in how to achieve excellence.
 
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Arbo

Active Member
Site Supporter
I'm always looking for a fight against phariseeism.

I think we are supposed to. (Note that phariseeism is a philosophy- THAT'S what we are to fight against. I'm not fighting people- I'm fighting against their philosophy)

For clarity's sake, I have two questions. First: Define phariseeism in your own words. Second: As pertains specifically to the subject of alcohol consumption, what is your standard for judgement to determine if someone is practicing phariseeism?
 

Luke2427

Active Member
For clarity's sake, I have two questions. First: Define phariseeism in your own words. Second: As pertains specifically to the subject of alcohol consumption, what is your standard for judgement to determine if someone is practicing phariseeism?

In a nutshell: teaching for doctrines the traditions of men.

When one takes a tradition, which is what teetotalism is, and it is a very NEW tradition, one the church did not embrace for the better part of two THOUSAND years- and they proclaim it as though it is a doctrine taught in the Word of God- that is phariseeism.

There is one more factor- it has to do with practice. It has to do with what you should do and what you should not do. It is not just a teaching like a theological matter between Arminians and Calvinists- it is an expectation concerning how you are to live.

I am a Calvinist. But I do not think Arminianism is phariseeism. Arminianism is a genuine attempt to systematize complex doctrines of Scripture.

Phariseeism is a doctrine, not about how you understand God necessarily, though it does touch that, it is primarily about what is right and wrong TO DO.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
That fact many people drink on a regular basis does not logically support the reasoning in an argument that it is not harmful or should be used.

The stating from the Op that 95% do not become “alcoholics” is being based on a biased ambiguous term and does not logically support the reasoning in an argument that it is not harmful or should be used.

If one can’t “easily” stop drinking starting tomorrow and cannot continue to not drink comfortably for an extended amount of time and be able live without becoming emotionally stressed because of this action then there is significant merit to that they are indeed struggling at a level of addiction to alcohol that would fit my definition of one being an alcoholic.

Out of the many people that I could observe and recognize as having the stereotypical characteristics of a regular drinker before any word about alcohol is mentioned I would guess that less than 5% would consider themselves an alcoholic. Again:

Ben, this is just your definition versus the definition of those who are trained to and make a living defining such things.

The World Health Organization says indicates that above 95 percent of people who drink do not have a drinking problem.


My religious belief does not advocate that one should not drink at all. But my values which come from religious beliefs do often separate my definition from others when it comes to defining “moderate” use of alcohol because of the obvious influences on one’s nature, their spirit - their reasoning and judgment being altered and coming from this substance which, believe or not, I have come to recognize. What I would consider common sense is that alcohol is abused in the world at epidemic proportions and that is enough to speak out against and warn of its use.

It is not at epidemic proportions. It simply is not.

Heart disease is WAY more deadly than alcohol in this country.

But we simply don't hear the preaching against HDL that we hear against alcohol.

I would not be pharisaical about warning others not to drink or dogmatic about the Bible saying it is a sin but even if someone else is preaching such it does not justify the use of alcohol in any way nor does such take away from that the obvious harmful, life altering effects should honestly be considered by every individual. Much more personal responsibility should be expected to come from a Christian in this matter, especially a leader of the flock in this area in that he has been practically informed and wanting to bring about and teach how to achieve the healthiest results rather than be motivated to be acting to condone his own ways or possible – and obviously probable shortcomings. I am very understanding that pastors are human like everyone else but I do expect them to strive for a higher standard and to try to present a good and reasonable example in how to achieve excellence.


The higher standard argument is not applicable. You don't just get to arbitrarily pick standards by which you hold pastors accountable to.

You say, "I expect pastors not to drink ANY alcohol because I expect them to hold to a higher standard."

Another might say, "I expect pastors not to have sex because I expect them to hold a higher standard."

Another might say, "I expect pastors to wear robes in public because I expect them to hold a higher standard."


The higher standard thing is arbitrary.

God sets the standards that pastors ought to hold to highly. Not Benji.

You see?
 
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