Most drinkers are moderate

[12strings]

2 more things (A note to Luke, and Bro. Greg)

LUKE: If you claim that it is a SIN for a pastor to call moderate drinking sinful (when he is fully convinced he is preaching biblical truth) ...then by the same logic, would you say it is sinful for a presbyterian minister to promote infant baptism (when is convinced he is promoting truth)? Both you and I would agree that both these men are teaching the wrong thing...but can we say they are sinning by doing so? ...Or simply making an error in biblical interpretation?
--Could we take it so far that teaching the wrong view of the end times is sinful? I don't think we can.

BRO GREG: I'm not trying to pick you, but I think you are making the same error in this debate as in the Musical styles debate...you are stating that something is sinful where the bible does not. (though I'll admit there is more biblical evidence in your favor on the alcohol issue than the music issue). I think we must simply be careful not to draw lines where the Bible has not.

 

[Skandelon]

12stings,

I know you didn't ask me, but I would call it sinful to preach something that is not true, even if unintentionally. There may be different levels of culpability for sins of ignorance, but it is still sin.

 

[Benjamin]

I gave a definition of an alcoholic - addiction and dependence and “I” (Christian, recently graduating with honors in Health Science - Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation) made a claim:

If one can’t “easily” stop drinking starting tomorrow and cannot continue to not drink comfortably for an extended amount of time and be able live without becoming emotionally stressed because of this action then there is significant merit to that they are indeed struggling at a level of addiction to alcohol that would fit my definition of one being an alcoholic.

A direct answer to this definition was avoided with the use of this "philosphical" reasoning:

Response:
Ben, this is just your definition versus the definition of those who are trained to and make a living defining such things.

The World Health Organization says indicates that above 95 percent of people who drink do not have a drinking problem.

Will get back to sources in a minute.

I also defined alcoholism – a distinguishable distinctive characteristics which most often comes hand in hand with "philosophical" argument to support that way of life:

Out of the many people that I could observe and recognize as having the stereotypical characteristics of a regular drinker before any word about alcohol is mentioned I would guess that less than 5% would consider themselves an alcoholic. Again:

IOW’s these people drink enough that I can recognize these characteristics yet I can tell you with certainty that almost all these people would not admit to being an alcoholic or to alcoholism *.

*-ism - A distinctive practice, system, or philosophy,…

Again my definiton was avoided with only an argument against my claim that higher standards should be considered by a Christian (especially in leadership position).

Response:
The higher standard thing is arbitrary.

God sets the standards that pastors ought to hold to highly. Not Benji.

You see?

The Op continues to speak of worldly judgments concerning when alcohol is a problem; I speak because of and through Christian discernments which comes from understanding warnings in the Bible regarding instruction and wisdom to avoid corruption of one’s spirit and addictions:

My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increaseth the transgressors among men. Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
(Pro 23:26-35)

I have given a definition to which I challenge the Op to either answer or tell me how the definition is inaccurate, while there is certainly support to the question of sin (missing the mark) if one is subject to addiction, being tempted and in bondage:

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(2Pe 2:19)

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.
(Jas 1:14-16)

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Some very interesting statistics on alcohol can be found on the Center for Disease Control website,

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Just A Thought...!

2 more things (A note to Luke, and Bro. Greg)

LUKE: If you claim that it is a SIN for a pastor to call moderate drinking sinful (when he is fully convinced he is preaching biblical truth) ...then by the same logic, would you say it is sinful for a presbyterian minister to promote infant baptism (when is convinced he is promoting truth)? Both you and I would agree that both these men are teaching the wrong thing...but can we say they are sinning by doing so? ...Or simply making an error in biblical interpretation?
--Could we take it so far that teaching the wrong view of the end times is sinful? I don't think we can.

BRO GREG: I'm not trying to pick you, but I think you are making the same error in this debate as in the Musical styles debate...you are stating that something is sinful where the bible does not. (though I'll admit there is more biblical evidence in your favor on the alcohol issue than the music issue). I think we must simply be careful not to draw lines where the Bible has not.

12 String....I'm just always in favor of giving God (since,after all...He IS God) the benefit of the doubt on this kind of stuff....But I do believe there is sufficient Biblical evidence to justify my position on at least THIS issue. I will admit there are some definite "gray areas" in the music debate. Some times we have to measure right and wrong according to the fruit produced. It can be difficult at times.

Bro.Greg:type:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Not Gonna Change My Mind...

To Luke,Skandelon,12 String and any others in here that have weighed in on the side of favoring consumption of alcoholic beverages.... I have read your sometimes lengthy and "sophisticated" arguments in favor of the practice of drinking including your "interpretations" of the passages of scripture offered. I still disagree and I'm not going to change my mind and I can at least sleep at night knowing that I'm not riding the world's fence in this regard. That is at least one thing I won't have to face God in shame about at the JSOC. Unless you brew your own booze, then every dollar or cent you spend buying the stuff goes into the pocket of wicked and Godless men and women who are responsible for the death,destruction,and moral downfall (over the course of history) of probably multiplied millions of people since the invention of intoxicating drink.

I did not set out to offend anyone in here and my ONLY motive is to promote the kind of holiness and Godly living that God plainly says in His word that He wants His Children to walk in. We are (and I do include myself) all woefully lacking in that respect most of the time these days. Like I said earlier...we ought to ALWAY'S give God the benefit of any doubt since He mercifully shows each of us more mercy,love and grace than we could EVER deserve.

One LAST question before I retire from this senseless debate....can any of you HONESTLY bow your head,close your eyes and with a straight face and a pure heart RETURN THANKS over the Budweiser or the Chardonnay(sp?) you are about to partake of?? Just asking....but I would prefer NOT knowing...so don't even go there.

:BangHead:Bro.Greg

By the way...I will admit that the list I posted was a list of Bible (REFERENCES) and yes...the author did offer his own interpretations...I just happen to agree with them for the most part.:type:

 

[Luke2427]

2 more things (A note to Luke, and Bro. Greg)

LUKE: If you claim that it is a SIN for a pastor to call moderate drinking sinful (when he is fully convinced he is preaching biblical truth) ...then by the same logic, would you say it is sinful for a presbyterian minister to promote infant baptism (when is convinced he is promoting truth)? Both you and I would agree that both these men are teaching the wrong thing...but can we say they are sinning by doing so? ...Or simply making an error in biblical interpretation?

Baptists DO believe the practice of infant baptism is sin (perhaps not all but in general).

The best debate I have heard between the two positions was held between John MacArthur and R. C. Sproul.

They both are very good friends and partners for the Gospel.

But they both were not hesitant to declare the other practice sinful.

So yes.

It is a sin for a man to preach as doctrine anything that is not in the Scripture.

--Could we take it so far that teaching the wrong view of the end times is sinful? I don't think we can.

I think we can- IF we preach it AS DOCTRINE.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to say, "Let me share with you the way I interpret these passages but I do not preach them as clear Bible doctrine. In other words it might be, I think it is, but let's all realize that apocalyptic language is the most difficult to interpret and I might be wrong."

BRO GREG: I'm not trying to pick you, but I think you are making the same error in this debate as in the Musical styles debate...you are stating that something is sinful where the bible does not. (though I'll admit there is more biblical evidence in your favor on the alcohol issue than the music issue).

No there isn't. There is much less.


The Bible has a lot to say about how we worship and a much better case could be made on the music in worship issue than against the moderate use of alcohol.

 

[Skandelon]

To Luke,Skandelon,12 String and any others in here that have weighed in on the side of favoring consumption of alcoholic beverages.... I have read your sometimes lengthy and "sophisticated" arguments in favor of the practice of drinking including your "interpretations" of the passages of scripture offered. I still disagree and I'm not going to change my mind and I can at least sleep at night knowing that I'm not riding the world's fence in this regard.

I'm sure some of the recipients of the Galatian epistle, sent by Paul, felt much the same way. I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't offer any rebuttal to this so-called 'sophisticated' arguments, but instead chose the easy way out...

That is at least one thing I won't have to face God in shame about at the JSOC.

If you have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ their is now NO condemnation or shame. It saddens me that you feel your God will be ashamed of you for doing something he himself did.

Unless you brew your own booze, then every dollar or cent you spend buying the stuff goes into the pocket of wicked and Godless men and women who are responsible for the death,destruction,and moral downfall (over the course of history) of probably multiplied millions of people since the invention of intoxicating drink.

Really? You know every wine vineyard owner, their actions, motives and hearts? Interesting that you place yourself as their judge and jury. Such narrow-minded comments are shocking to me.

we ought to ALWAY'S give God the benefit of any doubt since He mercifully shows each of us more mercy,love and grace than we could EVER deserve.

And you feel that abstaining from alcohol is giving God's grace the benefit of the doubt? Interesting.

One LAST question before I retire from this senseless debate....can any of you HONESTLY bow your head,close your eyes and with a straight face and a pure heart RETURN THANKS over the Budweiser or the Chardonnay(sp?)

Absolutely, just like my savior and Lord did: "And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it..."

And if I could turn water into 'good wine,' I'd be even more thankful.


:love2:

 

[Revmitchell]

Its a sin to say its a sin to preach that drinking alcohol is a sin.

 

[saturneptune]

Its a sin to say its a sin to preach that drinking alcohol is a sin.

Is it a sin to not say it is not a sin to preach abstinence?

 

[OldRegular]

12stings,

I know you didn't ask me, but I would call it sinful to preach something that is not true, even if unintentionally. There may be different levels of culpability for sins of ignorance, but it is still sin.

All I can say is I am powerful glad that Jesus Christ forgives all my sins, past, present, and future.

 

[Arbo]

Is it a sin to attend a beer summit?

 

[OldRegular]

Is it a sin to attend a beer summit?

Bein a "yellow dog Republican" it might be more of a sin to associate with Barry!

 

[saturneptune]

Bein a "yellow dog Republican" it might be more of a sin to associate with Barry!

And I thought you two were siamese twins. Where is the scar?

 

[Skandelon]

Its a sin to say its a sin to preach that drinking alcohol is a sin.

It is a sin to say its a sin to say its a sin to preach that drinking alcohol is a sin. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Sighhhhh !

I'm sure some of the recipients of the Galatian epistle, sent by Paul, felt much the same way. I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't offer any rebuttal to this so-called 'sophisticated' arguments, but instead chose the easy way out..

Sorry..I'm not trying to duck out on an argument...I just don't type very good (two fingers..no kidding)..my ususal posts tend to be long(for me) and I just didn't have the time to do more..(pretty sorry excuse huh?) Actually...I didn't really see the point.

And you feel that abstaining from alcohol is giving God's grace the benefit of the doubt? Interesting.

Yes I do. I KNOW I won't let my flesh get out of control and drink too much.

Absolutely, just like my savior and Lord did: "And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it..."

And if I could turn water into 'good wine,' I'd be even more thankful.
:love2:

I DO NOT believe the wine Christ CREATED was fermented alcoholic wine.

Bro.Greg

 

[saturneptune]

It is a sin to say its a sin to say its a sin to preach that drinking alcohol is a sin. :smilewinkgrin:

Is that a literal translation or a parable?

 

[InTheLight]

I DO NOT believe the wine Christ CREATED was fermented alcoholic wine.

Bro.Greg

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

If the wine Christ made was not fermented, why did the governor comment to the bridegroom that after the men are drunk most people put out the cheap stuff but you have kept the good wine until later. [?]

If it was simply grape juice, how/why would there be different quality levels?

 

[Skandelon]

Yes I do. I KNOW I won't let my flesh get out of control and drink too much.

And I don't begrudge you your freedom to abstain. That is great. No problem. Just like if someone chooses not to own a gun, that is fine with me too. My PROBLEM is when you start telling me what is right or wrong without the authority of scripture to back you up. I've shown how the list you provided doesn't say what you claimed they said and I've provide alternative passages which clearly indicate drinking is permissible....and those passages have been ignored.

I DO NOT believe the wine Christ CREATED was fermented alcoholic wine.

InTheLight brings up a good question, but in addition to that you do know that the Greek language has a word for 'grape juice,' right? Why does it use the word for 'wine'
instead of the word for juice?

The Greek word translated as "wine" in the New Testament is pronounced oy-nos which means wine, not grape juice. We know that because the word is used where people are warned not to drink to excess and get drunk from it. No such warning would be necessary if it were grape juice.

"And be not drunk with wine [oy-nos], wherein is excess" (Ephesians 5:18 KJV)
"Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine [oy-nos]" (1 Timothy 3:8 KJV)

In the very same breath, Paul said to "keep thyself pure" and "use a little wine":

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. Drink no longer water, but use a little wine [oy-nos] for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
The purpose of this study is not to encourage people to drink alcohol. It is intended merely to teach the Truth of what the Holy Bible says about "wine." Abusing one's self, or others, with alcohol is sinful; alcohol itself was and is not sinful. -Blank​

 

[Jerome]

you do know that the Greek language has a word for 'grape juice,' right? Why does it use the word for 'wine' instead of the word for juice?

What's the word? Strong's number will do. Thanks.