Featured Most drinkers are moderate

I guess this line of reasoning would be----when you move from 100% down to 99%---you are just a little bit less sober than you were a while ago!!! A little bit less aware---a little bit less coordinated---a little bit more prone to do something stupid---to say something stupid!!

 

1% less--------is still less!!!

99% does not equal 100%----now, does it??!!!

:sleeping_2::sleeping_2:

 

The Pharisees all they cared about is themselves and making them look good even at the cost of everyone else. They would load down people with things they couldn't carry and would not lift a finger to help them. Today there so many other things to help with our health than to promote drinking and not have the attitude of the Pharisees.

 

Pharasees always wanted to misquote Jesus' quote

Your quote "You're either 100% sober or your DRUNK!" is a misquote-----not one single poster on this board quoted that

Its that simple!!!!!:thumbs::thumbs:

 

You are trying to put words in my mouth. No, I wouldn't outlaw public vehicles, but I would not allow a person who had a DWI to drive again for 10 years and if they were in a crash, they would never drive again and if in a crash with a death would never drive again and I would give them about 20 years or more locked up.

I know when I go to the jail each week most are in there due to drinking, drinking and fighting, drinking and beating up their wife or girl friend and so on. I just think people should know the danger of drinking, then do as they wish.

When I go to the prison, I would say many are in there due to drinking to start with.

I'm not saying what is the number one thing folks die from, but over the years I've worked to help to many folks that drinking or over drinking caused so much harm, like wife and kid getting beat, can't pay the rent or other bills, money spend on booze.

 

Would you call them:

1. Semi-drunk
2. Almost-drunk
3. Slightly impaired
4. Sober
5. Stone sober

???

The Pharisees were big on exact amounts.

 

Is buzzed sober? Can you be considered sober minded if you are buzzed.

 

So, what's the answer to those 5% who abuse alcohol?

Outlaw, shame, condemn alcohol for everyone (like liberals want to do with guns)?

OR

Condemn the abuse, warn against abuse, punish the abusers, and promote responsibility. ​

I pick the biblical approach, which is the second.

 

I think we focused on two different things: You on the concept of prooftexting (which I generally agree with), me on the use of Proverbs as pertains to doctrine.

If you think abrasiveness and being disrespectful gets you results, then good luck with that.

I believe I read somewhere that you are a pastor. If I am correct and you are, do you treat your flock to the same insults as you do here? If so, how do they respond? If not, then why do you do it here?

 

Not Nonsense

I find your remarks completetly disrespectful and offensive....try reading the scripture offered in the list I posted and pray that God will give you two things...mercy and light form His word....I will pray for you.

Bro.Greg

 

I think the manner of some of your posts invite other people to 'snipe', and I suspect you enjoy it on some level.

As for me liking you least, not true. There's a difference between disagreeing and disliking.

 

Of Course Not...

Thank you for your comments.....this is a matter that I am particularly sensitive about due to the high cost my own loved ones have endured due to being enslaved to the devil and one of his tools (alcohol).

I think it is a natural thing to tend to ignore instruction about things that we are trying to justify. I find it interesting that before I logged into the BB this morning I read an article by David Cloud in my daily email that was discussing the proliferation of DRINKING in the "Emerging Church". Many of those folks are now conducting services and Bible studies (so-called) in bars and taverns. He has published much lately about IFB's and others moving in the direction of getting absorbed by that movement. The article I read documented the drinking-related aspect of their compromise and apostasy. If I can find a postable link to that article I will post it. That and the Emergent Church is probably fodder for another thread.

Let me state again for everybody...(including you,Luke) check out the list that was posted. Over and over again the scriptures teach and condemn the use of bevearge alcohol. Anybody that says otherwise is being willfully blind or ignorant. IF anyone can CLEARLY demonstrate FROM THE SCRIPTURES (I prefer you show me using a KJV please) that God condones and encourages the use of beverage ALCOHOL for anything other than medicinal (pain-killing,etc.)purposes then please, feel free to state your case. Would your "evidence" hold up in a court of law?....I don't think so.

As Clint is so fond of saying..."Go ahead, make my day!"

Here's the list again...just for reference:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol

Luke...I mean you no malice...only life and peace..I am praying for you that God will give you light.

Bro.Greg

 

I'll drink to that. (iced tea)

 

Here's a link...

Here is a link to the article that I mentioned in post #95 above about the "Emerging Church" and drinking by David Cloud at wayoflife.org (if anybody is interested)
The Emerging Church Loves To Drink | Emerging Church, Alcohol

Bro.Greg

 

Wow...

I've copied the list and am pasting it below. I've taken the liberty to delete all the text which speak of becoming drunk or being addicted to alcohol, as we have all agreed that is unacceptable and thus those passages do not apply to our point of contention:

3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

4) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.

16) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.

17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

22) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

23) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

24) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.

25) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable

26) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.

27) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

28) Proverbs 31:6-7 - Strong drink could be given to those about to perish or those in pain. Better anesthetics are available today.

29) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)

30) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

32) Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.

34) Isaiah 22:12-13 - The Israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.

35) Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

41) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

42) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

43) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

44) Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.

45) Daniel 5:2-3 - The king, along with his nobles, wives, and concubines, drank from the goblets which had been taken from God’s temple.

46) Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.

47) Daniel 5:23 - God sent word to Belshazzar that punishment would be swift for the evil he had committed.

48) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.

49) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.

50) Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment.

51) Joel 3:3 - The enemy is judged for selling girls for wine.

52) Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of Israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.

53) Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

54) Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.

56) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

57) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

58) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

59) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.

60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.

64) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.

65) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.

70) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

71) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

73) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.​

Now, that cuts your list down to 47, but while I was reading through these I noticed that these are NOT quotes from scripture. They are statements of interpretation which claim what YOU all think these texts mean. Examples:

#70 references 1 Tim. 3:3, which merely states, "not given to drunkenness..." And thus, this too should be dismissed as unrelated to our point of contention. There are MANY of these, but I want to focus on just one which will soundly put this argument to rest:

60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.​

Let's keep on reading, shall we?

Luke 7:33: For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children."​

Clearly, Jesus not only turned water to wine, but he partook of wine thus leading him of being accused of being a drunkard, by people like you, who can't seem to tell the difference between partaking responsibility and being a drunkard.

You can choose to be like John the Baptist, and I'm fine with that. But why not follow all the Nazarite vows and let your hair grow long? And while you are at it you can promote the requirement of circumcision making Christ of no value, but be careful where that leads lest you cut the whole thing off (ref to Paul's teaching in Galatians)

 

I'll answer this objection first, since its easy: I hear the Emergent church uses the Bible every once in a while, and wear shoes, and pants! Obviously all these should be abstained from in order to keep ourselves separate from the world, right?

(The below is taken from a very good article analyzing the Biblical references to wine & strong drink, found here: http://drbacchus.com/bible/alcohol.html )

LEVITICUS 10:9
King James: Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

-Why would he specify not to drink only when going into the the temple if strong drink was not drank elsewhere?

NUMBERS 28:7
King James: And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering.

-Were they making strong wine for the sole purpose of pouring it out? IF so, why was it called a "drink" offering.

DEUTERONOMY 14:26
King James: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

-Here they are told to buy what they want, even strong wine, and partake with thankfulness to God!

(those are just a few KJV verses taht use "strong drink/wine"...there are numerous more that refer to wine as a normal part of life...and the truth is we don't know how much, if any alcohol was in Biblical times wine. Much of it certainly was alcoholic, or there wouldn't be warnings against abuse.)

QUOTE FROM THE WEB-ARTICLE:On the negative side, there are 17 warnings against abusing alcohol, 19 examples of people abusing alcohol, 3 references to selecting leaders, and one verse advocating abstinence if drinking will cause a brother to stumble. Total negative references: 40, or 16%.
On the positive side, there are 59 references to the commonly accepted practice of drinking wine (and strong drink) with meals, 27 references to the abundance of wine as an example of God's blessing, 20 references to the loss of wine and strong drink as an example of God's curse, 25 references to the use of wine in offerings and sacrifices, 9 references to wine being used as a gift, and 5 metaphorical references to wine as a basis for a favorable comparison. Total positive references: 145, or 59%.


A biblical case can be made for and individual practicing abstinence as a way to avoid the dangers associated with alcohol.
A biblical case can be made for a pastor warning his congregation of the dangers of alcohol from the pulpit.
A biblical case CANNOT be made that the bible condemns ALL use of fermented drink/wine.

 

P.S.

I could point to many passages, some I already have in the last post, but let's handle one at a time:

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go thy way , eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.​

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