Music in Latin and such...

[yod]

If we are going to be strictly biblical about it we will all be singing the Psalms to jewish melodies in the hebrew language.


But seriously Aaron...I'm sorry if my definitions don't line up to yours. Evidently I don't know how you define it when "everyone is in one accord during the worship". Ya know? What do you call it when the entire congregation is giving their whole being in adoration of the Lord?

I have led worship in quite a few Baptist churches where "the Spirit fell" by the way...

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by yod:
Aaron...
I don't call worship a "natural" response.

Neither do I, that's why I said above that this style of worship isn't real worship.

Originally posted by yod:
Maybe you don't know the difference....

Sure I do. Worship means to offer "worth-ship." This is done, says Christ, "in truth," meaning devoid of all illusion, hypocrisy and partiality; and "in spirit," meaning not with the flesh or according to the flesh. This seems weak to the carnal mind which seeks for all kinds of garnishments to satisfy its lusts.

The Spirit needs none of this, indeed desires none. But man does.

[ August 11, 2003, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

It must have been an especially nasty thing to say if Dr. Bob zapped it!

Originally posted by yod:
If we are going to be strictly biblical about it...

God forbid we should be strictly biblical! How stifling! (to the flesh, that is.)

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
handclapping, hallelujah's, glory's to God,

And I always thought those things were found in Psalms.
</font>[/QUOTE]Really? In the Psalms? Repeated over and over again in a mantra-like fashion? Who knew?

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
(BTW, - and I think yod would verify this - weren't the original Hebrew praise songs - as far as we are able to tell- filled with clapping, hallelujahs, glories to God, and rhythmic chanting of "His love endures forever" and such?)

See above. But the Psalms also include the burning of incense and the slaughter of animals on the altar. Is this the next thing on your agenda?

You're forgetting, and I think you can verify this, that Israel under the Law is likened to a child, and the Christian under grace is likened to an adult. The carnal forms of worship under the Law are abandoned in favor of the spiritual form of the New Testament. When I became a man, I put away childish things. God neither desires nor suggests that Christians worship in the manner of the Jews and their rites.

As far as likening the Psalms to a "praise song," I will refer you to Dr. Peter Masters' treatment of that notion.

http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/masters/psalter.htm

 

[yod]

God forbid we should be strictly biblical! How stifling! (to the flesh, that is.)

Well thanks because that is exactly what I do...

...the psalms to jewish melodies sung in Hebrew (and English so the tongue is interpreted)

I'm so glad that you approve but I don't really think I have the market on worship cornered. Different cultures should be free to worship God in their cultural context. That was the whole purpose for the Jerusalem church's decision in Acts 15.

It's hard for me to argue with the fruit I've seen and the reports I have heard of people whose lives were changed through just learning how to humble themselves in worship.

I've seen entire Baptist churches dancing (which must prove that I am apostate,right? ) I've brought instruments onto the stage of Church of Christ and we sang as One (egads! )! I've seen people in a Catholic church get born again during the worship (what is he doing in a catholic church???)

I once led a Romanian politician to the Lord by praising God in the city square of Timisoara and letting the Holy Spirit do ALL the work except the final prayer. In that same city square I led an Iranian muslim to the Lord by singing praise and answering a few basic questions. We signed him into the local Bible school that day and he went on to be a missionary! I've seen Ehud Olmert (while the mayor of Jerusalem) weep as I sang Zech 9 to him.

Worship is an international language when we can allow others to be themselves.

You said something about the way the people of the book worshipped being some kind of fanatical mumbo jumbo but the Lord never rebuked their form of worship...it was established in His Word not only in the Psalms but in lots of other Books of the Bible.

The only time their worship was rebuked was when their hearts attitude was not focused on Him.

So are you saying that anyone who moves while saying "hallelujah" has a wrong heart attitude? Is it OK to clap?

I really just don't understand how you can have that position.

 

[Sherrie]

yod...excellent post!

Sherrie

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Really? In the Psalms? Repeated over and over again in a mantra-like fashion? Who knew?

His love endures forever... repeated over and over and over and over again in a mantra-like fashion. Psalm 136.

See above. But the Psalms also include the burning of incense and the slaughter of animals on the altar. Is this the next thing on your agenda?

Slaughtering of animals was specifically answered in the NT. Clapping and the shouting of Hallelujah's are not.

You're forgetting, and I think you can verify this, that Israel under the Law is likened to a child, and the Christian under grace is likened to an adult. The carnal forms of worship under the Law are abandoned in favor of the spiritual form of the New Testament. When I became a man, I put away childish things.

And the burden of proof is for you to show how clapping of hands, shouting, and saying "Glory to God" is somehow childish.

God neither desires nor suggests that Christians worship in the manner of the Jews and their rites.

Scripture?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Thanks, yod. I'm quite glad you've joined us! Great post!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Things that appeal to my flesh - tapping my toes to a boppy melody, waving my hands, "voting" (holding up a hand) - are NOT necessarily evil or wrong.

They are fleshly. And so am I.

Tell me you couldn't roller skate to Wonderful Grace of Jesus? Or Since I have Been Redeemed sedt your toes a tapping?

 

[yod]

I can't skate, Bob!

Not much ice skating here in Texas

But I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that...

Are you saying that moving your toes to music is "fleshly" because toes are made of flesh?

What about vocal cords?

I'm chuckling as I get a mental picture of christians doing the "yoga" thing so no flesh moves...

 

[Dr. Bob]

Trying to difuse the conflict between you and Aaron! ALL music has a fleshly/carnal part to it and we might as well all AGREE on that, rather than fuss about it.

We bring a level of spirituality to that music in all aspects of it.

 

[yod]

And here is another one that I don't understand...

Israel under the Law is likened to a child, and the Christian under grace is likened to an adult.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

or this one from Mark 10

15 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
16 And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands on them.

ahhhh...I want that kind of fellowship with the Lord!

 

[yod]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Trying to difuse the conflict between you and Aaron! ALL music has a fleshly/carnal part to it and we might as well all AGREE on that, rather than fuss about it.

We bring a level of spirituality to that music in all aspects of it.

I thought that might be what you meant...

ommmmmm....ommmmmm....

 

[yod]

Here is the "strictly biblical" song of the day
It is the words of Psalm 133:1



"Hinei ma tov umanaim shevet achim gam yachad""



and now the interpretation for that hebrew tongue....


"Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity"


(just seemed appropriate at this point)


I wonder what this would be in Latin?

 

[Sherrie]

What about Sisters?????

Sherrie

 

[yod]

Welcome sister!

 

[Sherrie]

Thanks yod!

Sherrie

 

[rsr]

I see no problem with singing in Latin so long as everyone knows what the words mean.

Latin is a beautiful language for singing and, because it's a learned language, you can get identical vowel sounds without American accents plopping in the way.

On some days, there's no better way to deal with co-workers than to lock the door and sing Mozart's "Confutatis" as loud as you can.

 

[Sherrie]

I can almost hear you now rsr............

Sherrie

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by yod:
Here is the "strictly biblical" song of the day

It is the words of Psalm 133:1
Hinei ma tov umanaim shevet achim gam yachad"

"Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity"

I wonder what this would be in Latin?[/b]

Ecce quam bonum et quam decorum habitare fratres in uno sicut unguentum optimum in capite quod descendit in barbam barbam Aaron quod descendit super oram vestimentorum eius sicut ros Hermon qui descendit super montana Sion quoniam ibi mandavit Dominus benedictionem vitam usque in aeternum

 

[rsr]

Voca me cum benedictis, and so all we pray.