Music in worship

[Tom Butler]

I never said they weren't. I said instruments were shunned in the synagogues.

It would be nice if you would offer some logic and reasoning.

Were the Psalms sung in synagogues? Yes. Were they accompanied with musical instruments? No.

Conclusion, a psalm does not necessitate the accompaniment of musical instruments.

Therefore, the early church singing psalms does not "irrefutably," as you fallaciously asserted, prove the use of musical instruments in the early church.

In fact, all scholarship on the issue concludes that the early church shunned musical instruments.

I would appreciate it if you would cite a source for your view on the synagogue, psalms and musical intstruments

I would also appreciate it if you could cite some of the scholarship you referred to regarding the early church and musical instruments.

 

[steaver]

Well I refuse to worship with mechanical instruments because God did not command it, can you tell me where God has given you authority to worship with them in N.T. scripture or an example of there use in worship?

If something cannot be done according to truth (Scripture), then what authorizes it? Again the arguement about electric and air cond.. is not the same, some things are loosed for us to do, everyone can agree on that. However to think that we can add something beyond singing, when the scripture says to sing, is to go beyond something that has been bound on us in a command.

Do you believe God has commanded us to sing? Do you believe that God has commanded us to play instruments?

Do you believe God has commanded us to pray? Do you believe that God has commanded us to bow our heads and close our eyes?

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.


So far you have ignored my post concerning the worshipping of God in prayer. The scripture states we should pray, it does not say we should bow our heads and close our eyes. Bowing your head and closing your eyes is a liberty in Christ and a tradition engrained into society. It is not sin to play an instrument while singing to the Lord and it is not sin to bow your head and close your eyes while praying to the Lord.

So your "God did not command it" argument is vain. God took care of these types of arguments in scripture. Matt 7, Romans 14 and James 4.

You are committing sin because you are violating God's commands concerning judging your brothers and sisters in Christ. Not one person here has condemned or judged you for abstaining from music in your worship, you have that liberty in Christ (Ro 14) . But when you judge others for worshipping with music you sin, each and every time you think it or do it.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

:jesus:

 

[JSM17]

You are committing sin because you are violating God's commands concerning judging your brothers and sisters in Christ. Not one person here has condemned or judged you for abstaining from music in your worship, you have that liberty in Christ (Ro 14) . But when you judge others for worshipping with music you sin, each and every time you think it or do it.

What? You compare prayer and body functions with singing and adding mechanical instruments. I pray in many ways inmany postures, which has nothing to do with adding mechanical instruments to singing in worship.

I do not judge I discern right from wrong according to the word of God. Romans 14 are opinions and scruples not commands, God has not loosed all things to us just because it is not stated in scripture. If God had to right all the don't the book would have thousands of volumes, instead He said to sing and to do worship the way He has left us with as an example.

Singing is not playing instrument, whether you like it or not.

I have seen churches with Heavy metal bands for praise teams during so called worship, are you ok with that as well?

Where does the scripture draw the line in our freedom to do what we want?

 

[Allan]

I do not judge I discern right from wrong according to the word of God.

There is no difference between the statement above and this statement from scripture:

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are],... or even as this publican.

The pharisee would say the same thing, that he wasn't judging, he was discerning.

Where does the scripture draw the line in our freedom to do what we want?

Since it seems you haven't 'really' listened to anyone yet in this thread I really don't think you acatully care to hear any answer but your own. This statement from me is neither meant positively or negitively toward you but simply an evaluation from reading this thread and your responses thus far.

 

[Amy.G]

Where does the scripture draw the line in our freedom to do what we want?

When it is sin. And you have not been able to prove that using instruments in worship is sin.

I have asked this of you before, but you ignored it. Can you show any scripture in which God is displeased with the playing of musical instruments as worship?

 

[JSM17]

I have asked this of you before, but you ignored it. Can you show any scripture in which God is displeased with the playing of musical instruments as worship?

No I cannot, but then again I cannot show you a lot of things that cannot be pleasing to God that are not explicitly directly stated againsts in scripture.

Like I said before if God had spent all the time to declare al the don't the Bible would be very long, instead He declares what He does want, He wants His people to sing, and there is no mention or example in the N.T. earthly worship towards God using mechanical instruments.

I am still waiting for an example.

The early Jerusalem church was born into a world of music. Existing as it did for the first few years of its history in the shadow of the Jewish temple, the first-century church was exposed to a large variety of musical instruments. There were numerous types of cymbals, harps and lyres (1 Chronicles 25:6-7). However, the early church used none of them. Instead, their worship assemblies included “psalms, hymns and spiritual songs,” performed only with human voices and hearts (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16).

In light of the extensive use of instruments in the Old Testament and in the first-century world, it is amazing that there is no mention in the New Testament of such instruments in connection with the worship of the church. Apparently, when the early Christians were instructed to sing, the clear meaning of those instructions to them was to sing without instruments of music

 

[Darron Steele]

Written by someone else

I have asked this of you before, but you ignored it. Can you show any scripture in which God is displeased with the playing of musical instruments as worship?

No I cannot,

Thank you for your honesty.

but then again I cannot show you a lot of things that cannot be pleasing to God that are not explicitly directly stated againsts in scripture.

So can I.

Musical instruments is not one of those. I can show you show where Scripture demonstrates God's pleasure in musical instruments in worship.

`Oh, of course, those passages do not apply. Nothing the Bible actually says or demonstrates about the subject applies. Silly me.'

In light of the extensive use of instruments in the Old Testament and in the first-century world, it is amazing that there is no mention in the New Testament of such instruments in connection with the worship of the church.

Yeah, evidently, Christians were expected to have common sense.

I am sure that the New Testament-era Christians knew that what the Bible had said about using musical instruments as they sang still applied. That would be a no-brainer.

I doubt it ever occurred to New Testament authors that centuries down the road, some people would come to disdain musical instruments in worship so much that they would
a) advocate a universal ban on what God has shown approval of from the Old Testament to Revelation,
b) throw out everything the Bible actually says or demonstrates about the subject.
Again, something so foolish would never have occurred to them, so they did not even think to address it.

To go back to the beginning: you cannot show that worship with musical instruments displeases God. We can show where God demonstrates His pleasure in musical instruments in worship from the Old Testament to Revelation. Yet you advocate that we disregard that, demand that we justify doing what Scripture shows God's approval of, and advocate a universal ban on what God shows His approval of throughout His Word -- all the while claiming to be following the Bible!

I do not plan to go on an `A-game' argument over this subject. When a premise like this is advocated, those who do so are resolved to retain it regardless of its merit; I do not intend to waste much time with such people. However, when something begs to be critiqued, I will do so. There is only so much foolishness I am going to `bite my tongue' through.

 

[JSM17]

Musical instruments is not one of those. I can show you show where Scripture demonstrates God's pleasure in musical instruments in worship.

You show me the passage under the New Covenant for which Christ shedd His blood for that states that mechanical instruments were used in the assembly.

 

[Darron Steele]

You show me the passage under the New Covenant for which Christ shedd His blood for that states that mechanical instruments were used in the assembly.

See prior post for a fitting reply to your premise.

Most notably: "I doubt it ever occurred to New Testament authors that centuries down the road, some people would come to disdain musical instruments in worship so much that they would
a) advocate a universal ban on what God has shown approval of from the Old Testament to Revelation,
b) throw out everything the Bible actually says or demonstrates about the subject.
Again, something so foolish would never have occurred to them, so they did not even think to address it."

You cannot show from the Scriptures that worship with musical instruments displeases God. You admitted that!

In contrast, we can show where God demonstrates His pleasure in musical instruments in worship from the oldest books of the Old Testament to Revelation. Yet you
a) advocate that we disregard ALL Scripture says about the subject,
b) demand that we justify doing what Scripture shows God's approval of, and
c) advocate a universal ban on what God shows His approval of throughout His Word,
-- all the while you claim to be following the Bible! This is sheer foolishness!

Amazingly, you seem to actually be trying to convince me to actually go along with it. There is no way! My biggest challenge if I was to get heavily involved on this thread would be curtailing mockery of you folks.

 

[DHK]

I am still waiting for an example.

I am waiting for an example from you.

However, the early church used none of them. Instead, their worship assemblies included “psalms, hymns and spiritual songs,” performed only with human voices and hearts (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16).

I will await your proof here.

In light of the extensive use of instruments in the Old Testament and in the first-century world, it is amazing that there is no mention in the New Testament of such instruments in connection with the worship of the church. Apparently, when the early Christians were instructed to sing, the clear meaning of those instructions to them was to sing without instruments of music

You have backed yourself in a corner with illogical fallacies that cannot be proven.

Here is your basic statement:
"The early churches did not use musical instruments." (paragraph one)

This is called a universal negative. It is impossible to prove. To do so one would have to go back into history and go to every church (100 plus) that Paul started, and all the others that branched out from the other apostles, and examine whether any of them used musical instruments. Have you done that? Of course not! You can't do that. No one can. It is impossible. It is impossible to prove a universal statement.

The early churches (all of them) did not use musical instruments."
How in the world could you possibly know that?
How could anyone possibly know that. It is impossible to prove.
It is an illogical statement; a fallacy known as a universal negative.
It is completely illogical. You can't do it. You need to quit as you look completely foolish in this argument.

 

[Johnv]

Thirteen pages on the subject, and still, not a single scripture that suggest the use of isntruments in worship is scripturally forbidden, displeasing, or unadviseable.

 

[Alive in Christ]

"Thirteen pages on the subject, and still, not a single scripture that suggest the use of isntruments in worship is scripturally forbidden, displeasing, or unadviseable."

I dont know how in the world they can justify this "no musical instruments" nonsense. Its an utterly absurd stance for bible believing christians to hold to.

If they enjoy singing accapella thats fine. Nothing wrong with that if that is what they want to do.

But to say that using instruments is sin or grieviously wrong is just ridiculous.

 

[queenbee]

Goodness gracious JSM17 - you're making an orchestral mountain out of a duet mole hill.

I think Allan's hit the nail on the head...."Since it seems you haven't 'really' listened to anyone yet in this thread I really don't think you actually care to hear any answer but your own. This statement from me is neither meant positively or negitively toward you but simply an evaluation from reading this thread and your responses thus far."

I'd agree with Allan's statement.

 

[JSM17]

Goodness gracious JSM17 - you're making an orchestral mountain out of a duet mole hill.

I think Allan's hit the nail on the head...."Since it seems you haven't 'really' listened to anyone yet in this thread I really don't think you actually care to hear any answer but your own. This statement from me is neither meant positively or negitively toward you but simply an evaluation from reading this thread and your responses thus far."

I'd agree with Allan's statement.

Maybe so, or maybe not. We feel free to do what we want and like when it come to doing what God either has explicitly commanded us to do or has not told us to do from silence.

Thirteen pages on the subject, and still, not a single scripture that suggest the use of isntruments in worship is scripturally forbidden, displeasing, or unadviseable.

Thirteen pages on the subject and not one New Testament example of the Apostles, or disciples using mechanical instruments in worship here on earth as an example for us. But it does say sing, we have that much going for us.

I am waiting for an example from you.

So you want me to prove that the bible condemns mechanical instruments in the N.T.; its easy, there is no scripture that authorizes them what more proof do you want, next you be adding cookies and milk to the Lords supper and will tell me that it does not say that we can't.

Quote:
However, the early church used none of them. Instead, their worship assemblies included “psalms, hymns and spiritual songs,” performed only with human voices and hearts (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16).

I will await your proof here.

Eph 5:19

19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
NKJV

Speaking and making melody in your heart.

Quote:
In light of the extensive use of instruments in the Old Testament and in the first-century world, it is amazing that there is no mention in the New Testament of such instruments in connection with the worship of the church. Apparently, when the early Christians were instructed to sing, the clear meaning of those instructions to them was to sing without instruments of music

My first comment has been proven, there is no mention, yet no one will admitt it, second if they were commanded to play mechanical instruments as we are today then God would have let us know, instead He remained silent. The burden certainly falls on both sides, yet I can easily prove that we should not because there is not command for instruments, you s you can do it from a position of silence in the N.T. scriptures on worship.

Jesus sd we must worship God in spirit and in truth, is truth learned from silence?

 

[DHK]

My first comment has been proven, there is no mention, yet no one will admitt it, second if they were commanded to play mechanical instruments as we are today then God would have let us know, instead He remained silent. The burden certainly falls on both sides, yet I can easily prove that we should not because there is not command for instruments, you s you can do it from a position of silence in the N.T. scriptures on worship.

Jesus sd we must worship God in spirit and in truth, is truth learned from silence?

You haven't proven a thing. The proverbial shoe is on your foot.
Your thesis: Early churches did not play musical instruments.
How do you know this? If you can provide only one that didn't, does that mean that they all did not? You have cornered your self into an illogical fallacy. It is a universal negative which cannot be proven. Too bad you won't address this post.

 

[Amy.G]

My first comment has been proven, there is no mention, yet no one will admitt it, second if they were commanded to play mechanical instruments as we are today then God would have let us know, instead He remained silent. The burden certainly falls on both sides, yet I can easily prove that we should not because there is not command for instruments, you s you can do it from a position of silence in the N.T. scriptures on worship.

Why would God command the church to do something He had already sanctified under the old covenant? You make no sense.

Jesus sd we must worship God in spirit and in truth, is truth learned from silence?

Worshipping God in spirit and in truth is not an implied command to not use musical instruments to do so.

If you read the whole passage, Jesus is telling the Samaritan women that a new time is coming in which worship will not be about a place, but about a person.

 

[Darron Steele]

Written to JSM17

You haven't proven a thing. The proverbial shoe is on your foot.
Your thesis: Early churches did not play musical instruments.
How do you know this? If you can provide only one that didn't, does that mean that they all did not? You have cornered your self into an illogical fallacy. It is a universal negative which cannot be proven. Too bad you won't address this post.

I read JSM17's last post and I laughed.

It is like a politician who has lost a cause, but is trying to spin it as a victory to `save face.' This is exactly what his post reminded me of.

Basically, he was grandstanding. Amidst his sea of
a) incompatibilities with every Scripture that addresses this subject,
b) arguments that are so foolish even he does not apply them consistently,
c) assertions that he cannot substantiate,
d) challenges to his views that he has not handled
he continues to claim that he is `winning.'

After all, if one assumes what he is to prove, then of course it is `proven.' Never mind that `Proof by Assumption' will fail you in every class where formal logic is involved. Why? anyone can `prove' anything with `Proof by Assumption' -- including empirically false statements.

`Proof by assumption' can prove anything if you dismiss all contradictory evidence, and assume what you intend to prove. JSM17 claiming that he is `winning' by doing exactly this is downright funny.

Even though I plan to remain mostly uninvolved, I could not pass this up. Kudos to you people who are bothering to fool with him on this.

 

[Alive in Christ]

JSM...

You said...

Thirteen pages on the subject and not one New Testament example of the Apostles, or disciples using mechanical instruments in worship here on earth as an example for us. But it does say sing, we have that much going for us."

Let me try this one more time.

In the New Testament scriptures there are no examples given of Christians building special buildings to gather in. They gathered in the already existing Jewish gathering places or the homes of church members.

Today, there are Jewish synogogs and church members homes available.


Why do you Church of Christ people insist on going beyond NT scripture, and doing something with absolutely no NT scriptural authorization, by building special buildings to meet in?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Why do you Church of Christ people insist on going beyond NT scripture, and doing something with absolutely no NT scriptural authorization, by building special buildings to meet in?

I'm certainly not CoC, but where exactly AiC do we read in the NT a command NOT to build "special buildings" (in other words a "church building") to meet in again?

In XC
-

 

[Johnv]

We're now at fourteen pages on the subject, and still, not a single scripture that suggest the use of isntruments in worship is scripturally forbidden, displeasing, or unadviseable.