also, one reason many people are turned off by CCM is because some of the artists are, or at very least, appear to be, very self-centered self-promoters who write songs meant for solo performance that are very difficult for a normal person to sing, but music leaders try to have their churches sing them anyway.
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Music (oh man its about to go down)
- Thread starter Gorship
- Start date
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Here's a contrast for ya
Some here may be surprized to see me say this but musically speaking I've always thought that the Beatles, Elton John, Phil Collins, The Doobie Brothers, Pink Floyd, and Jethro Tull (to name a few) were (musically speaking) creative geniuses (oh yeah...did I mention Bruce Hornsby and the Range?). When I got saved though I knew (in my heart) that I had to leave them and their form of genius behind because of their ungodly lifestyles and what they promote. It makes me cringe when I hear or read of these CCM "artists" that testify that much of the "inspiration" for their style of music comes from artists or groups such as those mentioned. For us as Christians, our choices about such things MUST ONLY BE ABOUT whether or not the things we say, do, or allow glorify and honor our God and edify (spiritually) those around us. We MUST satisfy those questions honestly. Part of me (the OLD part)would LOVE to be able to freely listen to some or all of the above-mentioned music but the NEW man within me will not allow it in good conscience.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Some here may be surprized to see me say this but musically speaking I've always thought that the Beatles, Elton John, Phil Collins, The Doobie Brothers, Pink Floyd, and Jethro Tull (to name a few) were (musically speaking) creative geniuses (oh yeah...did I mention Bruce Hornsby and the Range?). When I got saved though I knew (in my heart) that I had to leave them and their form of genius behind because of their ungodly lifestyles and what they promote. It makes me cringe when I hear or read of these CCM "artists" that testify that much of the "inspiration" for their style of music comes from artists or groups such as those mentioned. For us as Christians, our choices about such things MUST ONLY BE ABOUT whether or not the things we say, do, or allow glorify and honor our God and edify (spiritually) those around us. We MUST satisfy those questions honestly. Part of me (the OLD part)would LOVE to be able to freely listen to some or all of the above-mentioned music but the NEW man within me will not allow it in good conscience.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Waiting for someone to take this on....
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Just finished listening to that song. Got Piano Man going now and You May Be Right is on deck. Your post got me in a Billy Joel frame of mind.
Hey - Billy's old drummer - Liberty DeVito was our worship team's drummer!! We still have his old set that he took to Russia on tour.
As for me? 80s alternative. I put that station on Pandora and sing along with every single song!! LOVE it!! Then I also love the Ramones as well.
For Christian music, I really like a lot of the worship stuff from the Passion guys (Tomlin, Hall, Crowder, Redman, Nockles) and that sort of thing.
Toss in some good jazz on a clear cool night on the boat and I'm a happy puppy!
This is one of those What Would Jesus Do questions, IMO.
Christian music, any flavor, any performance, is supposed to be about Him. To honor, glorify, worship Him. To be a form of witness to help bring the lost to Him. To bring believers into closer fellowship with Him.
If we could see Him and hear Him speak when the last note fades away, what would He say? "Well done my good and faithful servant." ? Whether making music or listening to same.
I doubt that anyone would disagree with the following lyrics, whether sung a cappella or any variation of instruments and special effects.
Matthew 6: KJB 9 After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
IMO, when Christ's words are sung from the heart in prayer, nothing else matters. When Christ's words are preceived to be in prayer, by the listener, nothing else matters.
On the other hand, when Christ's words become and/or are preceived as being about "performance" rather than Him, everything else matters. Including instruments, beat, graphics, lighting, special effects, etc. The focus has turned from Him and resides on the performer/performance. Which can quickly bring into play earthly rewards for the performer/performance.
Wouldn't that apply equally to every other set of lyrics that have been written? And, to every instrument and score used with those lyrics, as well?
Was this for the glory of our Saviour or the glory of man? What would Jesus say?
Christian music, any flavor, any performance, is supposed to be about Him. To honor, glorify, worship Him. To be a form of witness to help bring the lost to Him. To bring believers into closer fellowship with Him.
If we could see Him and hear Him speak when the last note fades away, what would He say? "Well done my good and faithful servant." ? Whether making music or listening to same.
I doubt that anyone would disagree with the following lyrics, whether sung a cappella or any variation of instruments and special effects.
Matthew 6: KJB 9 After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
IMO, when Christ's words are sung from the heart in prayer, nothing else matters. When Christ's words are preceived to be in prayer, by the listener, nothing else matters.
On the other hand, when Christ's words become and/or are preceived as being about "performance" rather than Him, everything else matters. Including instruments, beat, graphics, lighting, special effects, etc. The focus has turned from Him and resides on the performer/performance. Which can quickly bring into play earthly rewards for the performer/performance.
Wouldn't that apply equally to every other set of lyrics that have been written? And, to every instrument and score used with those lyrics, as well?
Was this for the glory of our Saviour or the glory of man? What would Jesus say?
If anyone would like to hear these words sung, listen to this song...The Lord's Prayer is near the 2/3 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDvKOFplCo8
I like most all kinds of music (even Hip-Hop). Music needs no interpretation and appeals to your senses while different types have a different effect on us it is like guns it is neither good nor bad. It is in the ears of the listener. IMO listeners react entirely different to When I survey The Wondrous Cross then they do to Leroy Abernathy's Gospel Boogie, Days of Elijah or the Happy Goodman's I wouldn't take nothing for my Journey Now. My Church and more then likely yours will be doing Rapp 10 years from now if it is not already doing so. Caution: This is an opinion forum.
convicted1
Guest
Brother P4T, what style of christian music do you like? I like accapella lined-out music we sing in the ORBs the best. :thumbs: :thumbs:
I agree that if a performance becomes about the artist and not the message, it is wrong.
BUT
Judging where that line is and if that line is crossed is in the eye of the beholder. This is why music is an art and not a science. It's subjective. You could have 100 people in a room watching the same song being performed and maybe only 5 think the performer was out of line. That means the song was wrong for 5% of the people. Furthermore, the genre of music and the actions of the performer come into play. If a high energy rock band plays without emotion lots of fans would be offended.
My question is what is INHERENTLY wrong with rock music, specifically Christian metal music?
We don't know what Jesus would say. Asking these questions is a form innuendo. You are implying that Jesus would condemn this music.
preacher4truth
Active Member
To be honest I really don't listen to it a lot. One genre I do not care for is Southern Gospel music, but that is just me, and I don't care for country either.
We have a couple of Hillsong cd's and I like a lot of their songs. I also like this David Crowder kid. I thought about getting some of his music.
As far as what type of secular music I like, well, my two favorite bands of all time are Led Zeppelin and Metallica.
When I candidated for a church I pastored, they asked me what my favorite music was (the deacons in a private meeting) and they laughed and moved onto other questions when I said Led Zeppelin. They thought I was joking. :laugh: :tongue3:
While I do hold to a view of music that sees value in any musical style...there are some extra-musical things that go along with some styles that I believe are problematic.
So...on the good side, a song like Stephen Curtis Chapman's "Wake up and see the Glory" is a very lively, Rock-driven song encouraging listeners to wake up and stop wasting life on petty games and pursuits that don't matter. It's a sort of kick in the pants to point people to instead wake up to the Surpassing glory of Christ. The music fits the message of the song nicely.
Unfortunately, in some cases, a Christian heavy metal group might play a song that is musically very similar to the song above, with perhaps a bit more distortion and a grittier sound (nothing inherently wrong with that), but essentially a similar hard rocks style...BUT when you watch and listen to them sing, it seems that they are extremely angry about something, that they have no joy in Christ, no hope that whatever difficult situation they are singing about has any solution to be found in God, and while there is value in songs of lament, and songs that are honest about human problems; the goal of every Christian should be to point people to the ultimate solution to those problems in Christ.
So, just as we should be sensitive to the fact that watching a musical event in which there are scantly clad women gyrating on stage...we should also be sensitive to watching a musical event in which musical expression is used as an excuse for someone to rant and rave about how mad they are about life. Not a Christ-like attitude.
Please go back and read my post. I didn't quote you or anyone else. I didn't mention any particular type/style of music. That was done on purpose. Had no intention of triggering a debate about any particular form of Christian music.
Since I didn't mention "rock music, specifically Christian metal music", my question was pretty straight forward. The only "innuendo" and implication is what you read into the question. Pretty revealing, isn't it?
Now for the rest of the story that I hadn't planned to tell. Until -- "You are implying that Jesus would condemn this music." You, yourself are making that implication.
Was invited to hear a church choir present a holiday oriented contata, one Sunday evening in the last year or so. Well done. Everyone hit their high notes. Everyone hit their marks, just like clockwork. Entire program from opening welcoming remarks to the fade of music at the end was just what we'd hope and expect to hear.
When the choir director turned to once again face the congregation, I saw a change of expression as the applause faded. So caught up in the "performance" this choir director hadn't thought about ending a worship service for our Saviour. A pause, an awkward moment, as people began to rise from their seats, as if at the end of a movie. A hasty prayer to close.
Few days later, had the opportunity to talk with the pastor. He asked me what I thought of the program. Told him I was surprised that he didn't close it. Told me that he had planned to do so. He summed up our conversation with these words. "It was all about performance." The sadness in his voice spoke as loudly as his words.
Alive in Christ
New Member
I have gobs and gobs of christian music recordings.
The vast majority of them are CCM. My favorite are the live "Vinyard" CDs, but the Hosanna recordings are very good as well.
The vast majority of them are CCM. My favorite are the live "Vinyard" CDs, but the Hosanna recordings are very good as well.
Good answer. I never did understand why the heavy metal anger is adopted by a Christian metal group.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Simple...
The simple answer is that you can't do music that by it's nature illicits that kind of "emotion" or reaction without it illiciting the same kind of emotion or reaction. It is not now, nor ever will be a suitable medium for truly Christian music. The phrase "Christian Rock", "Christian Metal" or "Christian" Rap is now and always shall be an oxymoron. I know there is no verse of scripture in ANY version that actually says that but some things just are what they are. We, as Christians are called to "set our affections on things above,not on things of this world". Real Christian music is God's gift to us and in turn it becomes, at least in part, one of our means of worship towards Him.It is OUR music...not the worlds. I would also say that there is no verse in the Bible (any version) that suggests or commands that music should be used as an evangelistic outreach...even though it is true that the Holy Spirit can and does occasionally use a well-written Gospel hymn to touch the heart of a sinner. As such, OUR music should be separate and different from that which is OF this world. If any of you want to know what kind of music I like....I'll just say this....I like music about which there can be no question or doubt about whether it is godly or not. I like music that the lost of this world would NOT normally like or be drawn too. I like music that honors and glorifies God....ONLY. It is part of my worship to Him. I could say more but for now that is enough.
Bro.Greg:saint:
The simple answer is that you can't do music that by it's nature illicits that kind of "emotion" or reaction without it illiciting the same kind of emotion or reaction. It is not now, nor ever will be a suitable medium for truly Christian music. The phrase "Christian Rock", "Christian Metal" or "Christian" Rap is now and always shall be an oxymoron. I know there is no verse of scripture in ANY version that actually says that but some things just are what they are. We, as Christians are called to "set our affections on things above,not on things of this world". Real Christian music is God's gift to us and in turn it becomes, at least in part, one of our means of worship towards Him.It is OUR music...not the worlds. I would also say that there is no verse in the Bible (any version) that suggests or commands that music should be used as an evangelistic outreach...even though it is true that the Holy Spirit can and does occasionally use a well-written Gospel hymn to touch the heart of a sinner. As such, OUR music should be separate and different from that which is OF this world. If any of you want to know what kind of music I like....I'll just say this....I like music about which there can be no question or doubt about whether it is godly or not. I like music that the lost of this world would NOT normally like or be drawn too. I like music that honors and glorifies God....ONLY. It is part of my worship to Him. I could say more but for now that is enough.
Bro.Greg:saint:
This is why music is an art and not a science. It's subjective.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I've never liked Christian Rock. I've never liked Southern Gospel either -- it reminds me with its twang and beat of a tonk and where my Dad regularly got drunk. So Christian rock reminds some of the 'devils' music, and SG reminds some of a tonk. Same end result. To each their own.
You might like David Crowder though if you'd give it a listen. They get a little praise happy in the end. But to me it's great.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
There are several errors of logic here, and, unfortunately, I don't have time to flush them out. Let me also say, that I strongly agree with you when you say "there is no verse in the Bible (any version) that suggests or commands that music should be used as an evangelistic outreach."
Having mentioned that, let me suggest to us all that our thinking on this issue must ultimately be divided into two realms of thinking: Personal listening enjoyment/edification and the corporate worship service.
I strongly doubt there is any problem with someone listening to Christian Rap (and, as a classically-trained musician, I do not consider "Rap" music; it simply is "noise"), trying to engage in corporate worship through rap music is another story.
So, I think the discussion would be better served if the OP were a bit more refined and the thought lines diverged a bit.
Blessings,
The Archangel