Must justification be proven by sanctification?

[JonC]

Sounds like we're asking if a good tree has to bear good fruit. If so, thes yes. If the tree bears bad fruit, or no fruit, then it is good for nothing and will be destroyed.

 

[1689Dave]

According to the scriptures, upon one’s faith in Christ and the gospel, a person is justified, escaping eternal condemnation, and receiving eternal life. Although the claim by some is, that a person, once being justified, is then necessarily increasingly sanctified, resulting in their sin being lessened over time, I, having heard sermons, and read commentaries, believe contrary to this view, though the first three gospels, the general epistles, and the Book of Revelation seem to support it, according to an improper reading of those books.

What is your opinion?

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9 (KJV 1900)

Limited atonement justifies all for whom God intended. We are understood to be atoned for by Christ when we believe and live a holy life.

 

[Guido]

True. All believers change and bear fruit. Romans 6:15-18; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
Note also Romans 8:14. 'For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.' Note this, that Paul does not say that sin ought not to have dominion, or that it would be rather nice if it didn't have dominion. He says it shall not have dominion. So if sin still has dominion in your life, why would you think that you are under grace rather than under law?

So if you struggle with a certain sin, does that mean you're not saved?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So if you struggle with a certain sin, does that mean you're not saved?

No it does not. The Bible is quite clear that we shall be struggling with sin all our lives (e.g. Romans 12:1-2; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:5-10; James 1:21-27; 2 Peter 1:5-11). Struggle is a sign of life, and spiritual struggle is a sign of spiritual life. The dead don't struggle, and soldiers who have surrendered don't struggle. When we struggle with sin, we take it to the Lord and ask for His help. But if we have given up the fight, that may very well be a sign that there is no life in us.

If you are worried about your sin, that is a good sign; you probably have nothing to worry about. But if you're not worried about your sin, you should be very worried indeed. God is not mocked.

 

[percho]

I thought the resurrection of Christ proved our justification?

 

[percho]

Romans 8 states:

" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. " ( Romans 8:9-13 ).

Notwithstanding the Late Middle English of the AV, this tells me that as a believer, not only has God made me alive in my spirit ( Psalm 80:18, John 5:21, Romans 4:17, Ephesians 2:1-5, 1 Timothy 6:13 ), but is making me alive in my body as well;
To the point that if I walk in the Spirit, I will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ( Galatians 5:16 ).

To answer your thread, I see the Scriptures teaching that a believer grows in both knowledge and grace from a carnal "man" ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 ) that walks as natural men do, to a "spiritual" man that does not ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Peter 3:18 ), going from children, to young men, to "fathers" ( 1 John 2:1-14 ).

In other words,

We as God's children grow in our knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures, and we also grow in our stature or "person" from being less like Christ to more like Christ.
Our sin becomes less and less, and we put off the things of the flesh that surround the spirit that God has made alive through the new birth, or our being "born again" through the Spirit.

While we may never be completely free of sin until after this life, our sin is lessened over time by the power of the Holy Spirit that lives within each and every one of us.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Cor 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Is it at the last trump when that in bold takes place whether one be dead or alive?

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Is the Spirit spoken of in verse 11 the same as in verse 15 and 23?

Is, the adoption, the redemption of our body, the same as, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality," as also, "quicken your mortal bodies," of V 11 taking place at the last trump?

 

[canadyjd]

If you say that good works in the life of a believer are a proof that they truly are saved, you are teaching that works are required for them to be saved….,.

The only “proof” God gives us of our salvation is indwelling Holy Spirit that testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

Holy Spirit cannot be “seen” by others, so it is generally a vain exercise to attempt to determine who is saved or unsaved based on what they do. The best we can say is that someone is leading a life consistent (or not) with a profession of faith.

The works God has prepared beforehand for you to do are expected, however.

Peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Is it at the last trump when that in bold takes place whether one be dead or alive?

It could go either way.
With me, the jury is still out on that one... but I concede that you have a point.

Is the Spirit spoken of in verse 11 the same as in verse 15 and 23?

I see that it is.

Is, the adoption, the redemption of our body, the same as, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality," as also, "quicken your mortal bodies," of V 11 taking place at the last trump?

As before, I concede your point.

 

[zcostilla]

If you say must as in “we must or we are not”, then it is an act of our accomplishment. The Christian life is death to self, and him living his life through us. This begs the question then of can we sanctify ourselves through the works of our flesh, and the answer is obviously and resoundingly “NO”. But sanctification itself is tied to the Christian life BECAUSE it is Christ living in us and through us. So while it is necessary as part of the new nature, it is not something you can point at and empirically measure to the point you can declare someone is saved or not.

You can’t see the heart and know the internal struggles someone is facing, and seeing the growth that seems microscopic to us, but leads to much growth in the future. Like a seed dying to itself and beginning roots, we don’t see it until it sprouts through the soil. But much growth has already take place before it ever gets to that point.

 

[zcostilla]

Sounds like we're asking if a good tree has to bear good fruit. If so, thes yes. If the tree bears bad fruit, or no fruit, then it is good for nothing and will be destroyed.

We know that a good fountain shouldn’t bear forth bitter water, or a good tree shouldn’t bring forth good fruit. Yet the reality we face is that we still have to deal with a sin nature that must be overcome by the new nature. This is the point James was making when discussing the tongue in James 3:9-13. It ought not to be but often still is. Yet James was writing this about believers, not the unbelievers. The truth is that sanctification is a daily death, and we still struggle with sin. It’s really hard to make a judgment call about someone else’s sanctification. It’s impossible to do it without violating other clear Bible principles (pulling the mote/beam from our eyes before worrying about someone else’s splinter, judge not lest ye be judged, and with the same level of scrutiny according the next verses. So many times these judgments are as bad a stumbling block as the liberties of which they sit in judgment, because they cause someone to live up to another’s ideals instead of the convictions God gives directly.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for personal holiness and a proper walk with God; I just think we need to allow others room to grow in their faith in God’s perfect timing. See Romans 14:10-13. But unless there’s a clear line drawn in the sand (Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 come to mind), then we ought to simply encourage others to walk with the Lord, be faithful to their families, and to be integrated and serving within the church, as the body of Christ. And when disputes come, don’t make it a popularity contest, or a matter of who is a better speaker, but follow the guidance of 1 Corinthians 6:1-8. It should be the UNPOPULAR deciding disputes. I find it interesting that God inspired Paul to include this BEFORE dealing with the matters that we tend to judge others on. It’s as if God didn’t want the “more spiritual” brethren ending up as Nicolaitans.

 

[Bassoonery]

I'm confused by the title and question. Surely, the two go hand in hand. Forgive me if this is too simplistic, but I keep this little formula in mind:

Justification - the work of the Son
Sanctification - the work of the Spirit (note - not our own work)
Glorification - the work of the Father

 

[37818]

I just want to know. True or false?: All believers change and bear fruit?

True. 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
And Galatians 5:22-23, ". . . the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." See 1 John 3:23. And John 5:24 and John 13:34-35.

 

[37818]

I have the understanding sanctification precedes repentance and our faith. It is God who sanctifies us, it is not by our works. John 17:17.

 

[tyndale1946]

I don't believe that all Christians desire to do the will of God. or that all Christians will do the will of God, upon this earth. I believe that, if a Christian persists in disobedience toward God, He will discipline them.

Hebrew 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Brother Glen

 

[MB]

The Bible knows nothing of someone becoming a believer and their lives not being forever changed

Where does scripture say our lives will be forever changed?
MB

 

[MB]

Romans 8 states:

" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. " ( Romans 8:9-13 ).

Notwithstanding the Late Middle English of the AV, this tells me that as a believer, not only has God made me alive in my spirit ( Psalm 80:18, John 5:21, Romans 4:17, Ephesians 2:1-5, 1 Timothy 6:13 ), but is making me alive in my body as well;
To the point that if I walk in the Spirit, I will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ( Galatians 5:16 ).

To answer your thread, I see the Scriptures teaching that a believer grows in both knowledge and grace from a carnal "man" ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 ) that walks as natural men do, to a "spiritual" man that does not ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Peter 3:18 ), going from children, to young men, to "fathers" ( 1 John 2:1-14 ).

In other words,

We as God's children grow in our knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures, and we also grow in our stature or "person" from being less like Christ to more like Christ.
Our sin becomes less and less, and we put off the things of the flesh that surround the spirit that God has made alive through the new birth, or our being "born again" through the Spirit.

While we may never be completely free of sin until after this life, our sin is lessened over time by the power of the Holy Spirit that lives within each and every one of us.

Does what you said mean that if you still sin you're not saved? If so what about verses that say that there are no man with out sin?
MB

 

[kyredneck]

According to the scriptures...

...this element of our justification:

8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5

...would logically come before these elements of our justification:

1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; Ro 5

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2

 

[KenH]

' Elisha Coles when proposing to write on the subject of election said that he found no bottom would bear the weight of that doctrine but divine sovereignty. In proposing to speak to you upon the important doctrine of sanctification I feel that there is no ground will bear the weight of so important a doctrine but the Person of Christ. True sanctification is not vamped-up goodness in the mind, it is no effort of human nature, it is not natural religiosity, it is not the effect of moral restraint or education or anything that belongs to human nature. It has its source and rise and bottom in the Person of Jesus Christ, and I would if helped, just a little strive to show this great truth.

Let us take for an analogy that which so readily comes to hand, namely our father Adam. Everything of human nature in its purity as Adam was created he possessed for his future race, the head and representative of all who should proceed from him, to the last man that shall be born in this world. He had, and was, the fullness of human life. If he had continued in created uprightness, he would have possessed the fullness of that uprightness. When he fell, then in him was the fullness of unrighteousness. Everything pertaining to our nature we derive from Adam, and the death that we die we derive from him: "As in Adam all die." (1 Cor. 15:22) The condemnation that came on the world came from him. "As by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin," (Rom. 5:12) so the whole of corruption we derive from Adam. We sin ourselves, but we derive a sinful nature from him. We wish for evil, but the evil disposition we are born with; so all that belongs to the new creation we have in the very Person of Jesus Christ. Is that new creation to be forever holy? It is in Him that all that holiness resides. Is that new creation to stand ever before God in holiness? He is the Head of that creation. Sanctification then is built on, resides in, and is derived from the Lord Jesus Christ, and every good feeling, every gracious disposition that the people of God ever have and exercise, they have from Him who is their living Head, in whom is abiding fullness of grace and eternal life; and if we could a little beat this out we should find it to be completely in accordance with the true experience of the Lord's people, in complete accordance with all true experience.

It is life that animates; the life of Christ animates the Lord's people, and that life is holy.

...

This is separation, for as we noticed this morning, sanctification means separation. This separation really is from the world as from all other evil things. If a man will be a friend of this world, he is an enemy of God. How many friends has Christ here, and how many friends has the world? How many of you can appeal to God and say, there was at one time a necessity for the right eye to be plucked out, for the right hand to be cut off, for the right foot to be cut off, and grace accomplished it? My nature shrank, but grace did it; then you are cut off from the world. "It is better," says Christ, "to enter into life maimed, than having two hands and two feet to be cast into hell." '

- J.K. Popham

Rest of this excellent article at Sanctification (truegospel.net)

 

[Marooncat79]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[MB]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I am a sinner just like you, saved by Grace through faith. I wear the righteousness of Jesus Christ. It's His righteousness not mine that I'm saved by not by keeping the Law.
Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
MB