On this, and this alone, you are perfectly correct. I was mistaken. I have read so many accounts saying he was an expert witness assuming he testified personally, but as I read some more I did come across information saying he was to ill to come personally.
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My Theological Stance after Searching with All of My Heart
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
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Actually, what I said was
They arrived in Basel in 1535 (having left Orleans after the first burnings at the stake in November of 1534 - their travels took them into 1535) and moved on to Geneva in 1536.
Now, would you like to deal with the op or just continue to be your usual contrarian?
Yes, everyone we only have 20-30 posts before this thread gets locked. I ask that we concentrate on the original post and the discussions we've had on it for the remainder of the thread.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Not true. I am describing a flaw in Calvinism in that it tries to downsize God so that he determines the future by "programming the angels to sin or not sin" -- because this is the only way a Calvinist could know the future so it must be the only way God can do it -
They don't stop to consider that God can do what they cannot - make free will a fact while still knowing the future.
Nonsense. Please do not post nonsense and claim it is what somebody else believes.
Because God cannot lie. He has said that the will of the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death. It is. He cannot lie. And the will of the saved man is bound to the law of new life in Christ. It is. Both the will of the lost man and the will of the saved man is in bondage. One to sin and the other to Christ.
God, Who cannot lie. Said so. End of discussion.
I do get what you are saying. A God who interacts with sheep and children like a shepherd or parent is One that seems to have more freedom in what He can or cannot do than One who programs the whole thing before creation.
This assumes that the Spirit is already upon the person. Given that the Spirit does not come upon us until after our conversion, and in the case of the original disciples, after forty days of prayer and fasting, could this be a passage in Romans about sanctification instead of justification?
I am just throwing out that it could be that the worst of sinners can be saved by Jesus through repentance and faith, but only one indwelled by the Spirit can act righteously and please God. That seems a better explanation for why the apostles and disciples, who are all pretty clueless in the Gospels, grew up so much from Jesus' resurrection to the events in Acts. It wasn't the resurrection alone, but the power of the same Spirit that came upon Jesus.
Try as I might, I cannot quit this thread.
The work of the Spirit in bringing a sinner to Christ includes illumination and regeneration. We read the following in Ezekiel 36:
Ezekiel 36:26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
What is important to note about this passage is that is God that removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. We do not read that man asks for this first. There is similar language in Ephesians 2.
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Even when we were dead [nekros = corpse] in our transgressions, [God] made us alive together with Christ.
TCassidy is correct in stating that the will of the sinner is in bondage. It cannot do anything on its own to escape that bondage. Look at Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and Ephesians 2:1:
Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
These passages clearly point out that sinful man is spiritually dead. The word for "dead" in Ephesians 2:1 and 2:5 is the Greek word nekros νεκροσ. It means dead as in a corpse. Have you ever heard the term "dead man walking" to describe condemned inmates? That is the meaning behind nekros in Ephesians. Even while a sinner has physical life, he is considered dead spiritually. Perhaps you see the logical progression of this truth. What actions can a dead person take? I do not mean to be impertinent, but what actions can a corpse inside a coffin make? Can it get up and take a walk? Have a conversation? Worship? No. A corpse is stone cold dead. That is the condition of the sinner when it comes to spiritual matters. Unless God takes unilateral action no one will ever believe. When God calls one of His elect, He illumines them to the truth of the Gospel message. This is the work of God the Holy Spirit. It is also part of the order of salvation (ordo salutis). Once the Holy Spirit illumines the sinner to the reality of his sin, and the hope contained in the Gospel, the inevitable progress to justification takes place. In reality, the whole process takes place nearly simultaneously. The term "order of salvation" more aptly describes the component parts of salvation as opposed to measuring time. But the main point is that without God moving, sinful man would never seek Him because he is "dead in his trespasses and sin".
To be sure, those on the Synergist side attempt to take the dead out of dead. I believe they do so in vain. The passages I cited make a compelling case against the Synergist position.
They do offer a new insight into things for me.
However, the problem I have now is that like in most discussions over predestination, I will quote a variety of scriptures at you and you will quote some at me, and we will get nowhere. I may in fact get confused again. I see that I must search out this topic of the Spirit bringing the dead to life. Thank you for that knowledge.
That said, I do not think that any Calvinists could convince me to accept Calvinism again, which I did for a couple of days, unless they make more sense of all the verses I have in the original post than the Arminian faction. Currently, I believe the Arminians make better sense of the sum of the bible verses. If you want to influence me though, as you did with this last post, you can go to the original post and explain what I am doing wrong to you.
Friend, you place too much of a burden on Calvinists to convince you. First, I do believe you are in a cage stage right now. I am not being harsh on you when I say that because I was there myself once. Second, it comes down to what the Bible teaches. Do you notice that I did not use the word "Calvinist" in my previous post? I intentionally focused on the theological content of this discussion and not the label that is so widely used to describe the Reformed position on soteriology. Thirdly, if you "may in fact get confused again" that is proof that you really are not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt on what you believe. That is OK. You are discussing a doctrine that will permeate every inch of your Christian life. You should proceed slowly, and deliberately.
I will go back and look at your OP over the weekend. I will share my thoughts as I have time.
Would be interesting to read the book called The Gospel according to Dr Van!
Ask yourself this question, which part of Us was not affected by the Fall, as we seem to all spiritual dead in our sin natures before God rebirths us!
"After fleeing persecution in France in 1536 he moved first to Basil then on to Geneva." (T.C. #86
I had rightly said that in mid-October of 1534 during the Placard Affair Calvin fled from France --not 1536 as you claimed.
Also, in post #86 you claimed :"In fact Calvin...asked that he be hanged rather than burned at the stake."
Calvin said no such thing he pleaded with the authorities to have Servetus beheaded.
I am saying things that are historically true, if that is considered being contrarian so be it. Facts matter to me.
I became a Calvinist over a period of many years, and read many od the reformed and calvinist theologies along the way, but we need to remain grounded into scriptures themselves, as the Holy Spirit uses THEM to convince which theology is correct, as sometimes it seems that we can get more into what Calvin/Hodge/Berkhof/Grudem et all wrote than the Bible itself!
NO Calvinist that I have read or spoken with would have God playing puppet master to his puppets!
Read it again. I said he arrived in Geneva in 1536.
Or hanged. The point being he didn't want him burned at the stake.
You have reading comprehension problems. I quoted you exactly. The fact is he fled France in 1534 --not 1536 as you strive to maintain.
Calvin did not mention hanging at all --just you.
I can agree with that.
Something else you know absolutely nothing about. LOL!
Lets look at Romans 8:29-30:
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
This passage also was said to be problematic. Yes it is because reformed theologians have redefined the meaning of many of the words in the passage, resulting in the corruption of its message.
Lets start over.
1) foreknew does not mean knowledge of the future, rather it refers to knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being used in the present. For example, God planned in the past how Christ would die. Some of the plan was revealed in scripture, including Isaiah 53. So when Peter told his audience that Christ died by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, he is saying God knew beforehand His plan for Christ's death. Thus when a plan formulated in the past is carried out in the present, it is according to the foreknowledge. In our verse God formulated His redemption plan in the past, and as God carries out that plan, the redeemed are "those whom He foreknew" i.e. corporately as the target group of His redemption plan.
2) The plan not only included the redemption of believers, but also included that each redeemed person would be predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, thus Christ would be the first born of many siblings.
3) Now we transition from describing the redemption plan formulated in the past, to the implementation of that plan. Those that He planned to redeem (believers) and to predestine, He also called. Now here Paul is using called to refer to those called out, i.e. actually transferred into Christ and thus redeemed.
4) Once a person is transferred into Christ, they are justified, made perfect and holy and blameless. They undergo the washing of regeneration and arise in Christ a new creation, created for good works.
5) And as a new spiritual creation, we are glorified. And in the future our bodies will be glorified, just as we have been spiritually.
As you can see, a remarkably different view of the passage, but one consistent with all scripture and worthy of study.
God bless
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
This passage also was said to be problematic. Yes it is because reformed theologians have redefined the meaning of many of the words in the passage, resulting in the corruption of its message.
Lets start over.
1) foreknew does not mean knowledge of the future, rather it refers to knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being used in the present. For example, God planned in the past how Christ would die. Some of the plan was revealed in scripture, including Isaiah 53. So when Peter told his audience that Christ died by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, he is saying God knew beforehand His plan for Christ's death. Thus when a plan formulated in the past is carried out in the present, it is according to the foreknowledge. In our verse God formulated His redemption plan in the past, and as God carries out that plan, the redeemed are "those whom He foreknew" i.e. corporately as the target group of His redemption plan.
2) The plan not only included the redemption of believers, but also included that each redeemed person would be predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, thus Christ would be the first born of many siblings.
3) Now we transition from describing the redemption plan formulated in the past, to the implementation of that plan. Those that He planned to redeem (believers) and to predestine, He also called. Now here Paul is using called to refer to those called out, i.e. actually transferred into Christ and thus redeemed.
4) Once a person is transferred into Christ, they are justified, made perfect and holy and blameless. They undergo the washing of regeneration and arise in Christ a new creation, created for good works.
5) And as a new spiritual creation, we are glorified. And in the future our bodies will be glorified, just as we have been spiritually.
As you can see, a remarkably different view of the passage, but one consistent with all scripture and worthy of study.
God bless
The Foreknowledge of God is not passive in that He is the direct cause of what is happening to those who will be getting saved, as God elects them to predestined and have all of that passage applied in and towards therm! he chooses to elect and predestinate them period, based upon His will and not their decision!
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