My thoughts and questions on "Ten Reasons Primitive Baptists Are Not Calvinists."

[Brightfame52]

Personally I think election comes first because that is way back, like in the very beginning. The call comes at some point in an individuals life.

I agree it's not conditional as in some thing found in us or some virtue that merits God's electing grace. But faith or belief is conditional for salvation in the sense that it is always found where salvation is found. No belief - no salvation. Even if you believe faith is completely a gift bestowed by God, still you have it where salvation occurs.

Do you know of any scriptures where election is contemplated except in the case of believers who need encouragement. I mean, wouldn't we all agree that you can tell a believer that he is elect. While it may be that someone is elect who doesn't yet believe still, isn't the thing for us and especially them to contemplate is that they don't believe? Once again, all the great Calvinist confessions state that your belief is what gives you reason to think you are elect. They cannot be separated.

If you make anything a condition you must do in order of salvation, its a works base salvation

 

[Brightfame52]

A calling not to be by one's works being required is not a condition? Do you really think one can be elect for no reason at all?

So where does it say election is conditional in those scriptures ?

 

[37818]

Whose reason , human reasoning or Gods reasioning?

No reason excludes any reason. A reason sets a condition. If God's reason, then God Himself sets the condition.

 

[DaveXR650]

If you make anything a condition you must do in order of salvation, its a works base salvation

The obvious answer to that is that receiving a gift is not a work. In scripture faith, which is the way such a gift is received is often contrasted directly with and put opposite to works. So that is an invalid argument which might work in the case of a Neonomian who was claiming that God had set up a new law where faith was the requirement but even that is a stretch. The fact is Calvinists who use covenantal theology even say that God condescends to us and announces that we can come to Christ and that faith is the condition. Even if you believe that our salvation is all from God from beginning to end there has to be a way for rational creatures like us to connect to the reality of it. Faith is what God has chosen and in that sense it is indeed a condition.

 

[ParticularWife]

A calling not to be by one's works being required is not a condition? Do you really think one can be elect for no reason at all?

God does nothing without a purpose. But election does not occur because of anything we do, or would do, or could do, or might do, but for the sovereign pleasure of God, for the greater Glory of God.

 

[37818]

God does nothing without a purpose. But election does not occur because of anything we do, or would do, or could do, or might do, but for the sovereign pleasure of God, for the greater Glory of God.

No one is elect before one is called. No one is called before hearing the gospel. No one is converted without believing the call. The truly covered are elected.
Ephesians 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . .

 

[Jesus Saves!]

Yes indeed. We were talking about assurance and that in the context of belief that you are one of the elect. There is a tendency of some on here to go so far in the concept of election that they act like belief that you are elect is what Christianity is all about. It's belief on Christ as your verses point out. But even then, the question is how do we know in our deceptive human hearts that we really believe? Well, the whole 1 John talks about that and so does what @37818 mentioned above, 2 Peter.

Thought of these scriptures after reading your post. When I was lost without God, I didn’t have His Spirit living within me. I would just feel the Lord speaking to me through the Spirit when the Gospel was preached. I would feel convicted of my sin with no joy inside. But, when I answered His Call, and turned to Him by faith, that same Spirit that spoke from without moves inside and begin to guide, strengthen, bring me comfort, and teach me the ways of God that I couldn’t carnally understand. There is times the enemy has had us down and we’ve had doubts from time to time, but it was our own fault. After a while His Spirit would move within me and remind me I belong to Him. God Bless my friend

Romans 8:16 KJVS
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJVS
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 Corinthians 2:9-10 KJVS
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

[ParticularWife]

No one is elect before one is called. No one is called before hearing the gospel. No one is converted without believing the call. The truly covered are elected.
Ephesians 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . .

Election is the eternal decree of God, independent of any human action or response. Ephesians 1:4 “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.” The Somerset Baptist Confession affirms this, stating, “Election is God’s eternal purpose according to which He graciously regenerates, calls, justifies, and glorifies sinners.”

Though election is eternal, calling occurs in time. Romans 8:30 outlines the order of salvation: "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified..” This calling takes place through the proclamation of the gospel, which is the appointed means by which God gathers His elect. Benjamin Keach emphasized this connection: “The word preached is the instrument of the Spirit to awaken, convince, and draw sinners to Christ.”

Faith arises from hearing the Word (Romans 10:17, “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ”), yet not all who hear are called effectually. The elect are quickened by the Holy Spirit, enabling them to respond in faith. This regenerating work precedes belief, for as Geerhardus Vos observed, “Regeneration is the fountainhead from which faith flows.”

Conversion—turning to God in repentance and faith—is the fruit of election, not its cause. Those who repent and believe evidence their election, but their response does not determine God’s choice. As the Somerset Baptist Confession succinctly states, “Faith is the gift of God, not wrought by human effort but by His sovereign grace.”

Thus: no one is elect because of their calling or faith. Rather, they are called and believe because they are elect. Salvation originates in God’s eternal purpose and is executed through His gracious work in time.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you make anything a condition you must do in order of salvation, its a works base salvation

Correct

 

[ParticularWife]

Correct

Or, at best, arbitrary. Like 'everyone who happens to walk by this animal at random times receives faith', it simply doesn't make Biblical sense to impute election and salvation to anything in the created world. God saves, and he is sovereign even over sin. As in Bondage of the Will,

"For God not only foresaw that Adam would sin, but willed it. And this is a terrible and an astonishing saying, yet nevertheless certain and true. For if God did not will it, it would not have happened; and if He had not foreseen it, He would not have permitted it."

God's glory and sovereignty demand His eternal forordaining of all that comes to pass, and God chose His people before Creation.
And various Luther quotes about the goats:

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."

– Luther's Preface to the Epistle to the Romans.

"It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God's, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God's will is not fulfilled except it be God's will."

"God does whatsoever he wills in the hearts of even wicked men."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Or, at best, arbitrary. Like 'everyone who happens to walk by this animal at random times receives faith', it simply doesn't make Biblical sense to impute election and salvation to anything in the created world. God saves, and he is sovereign even over sin. As in Bondage of the Will,

God's glory and sovereignty demand His eternal forordaining of all that comes to pass, and God chose His people before Creation.
And various Luther quotes about the goats:

– Luther's Preface to the Epistle to the Romans.

Keep your commentary coming Particular…I’m in complete agreement with your assessments. Note, that for some time these arminians, worse theseCalminians, have been flooding this place I order to push their gospel concept of duty salvation, and in doing so blatantly dismissed any scriptural appreciation for the Doctrines of Grace! One guy on here even has gone so far as to say it’s a pagan Roman Catholic concept authored by Augustine and Calvin, in his deranged world this doctrine is bluntly evil.

 

[Brightfame52]

@DaveXR650

The obvious answer to that is that receiving a gift is not a work.

Yes it is a work when you deem it a condition you meet to get saved, no away around it !

 

[Brightfame52]

Or, at best, arbitrary. Like 'everyone who happens to walk by this animal at random times receives faith', it simply doesn't make Biblical sense to impute election and salvation to anything in the created world. God saves, and he is sovereign even over sin. As in Bondage of the Will,

God's glory and sovereignty demand His eternal forordaining of all that comes to pass, and God chose His people before Creation.
And various Luther quotes about the goats:

– Luther's Preface to the Epistle to the Romans.

Those some good quotes. I read that book over 20 yrs ago, but of course I cant remember a lot of it, and Im sure my understanding has grown a lot in the doctrines of grace during that time, so it would be like a fresh read.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Loraine Boettner once commented on the human condition and sin , something I’ve found profound. “How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates him?”

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Before regeneration I loved my sins, they enabled me to make a good living, those sins enriched me to a point that it’s how I patterned myself….for what is sin but the worlds reality… so I concluded that everything else was false and anyone not following it were fools, ripe for the picking.

And God had tried to set me up, keep me down so that the world was just a dismal place of poverty, sickness and death. I had told myself that that would not be my destiny & so living needed to be full of sin in order to survive and be successful. Mysteriously someone had provided me the key to getting ahead in my temporal life and I should grab hold of that key and accept it. I was through with watching my family struggle with life in general so I began to play sin for all it was worth. How dare my brother come to me with a Bible in hand and explore me to believe…believe in what, my belief was to milk life for all its worth and to enjoy the rewards of sinning to the maximum. And I owed that to myself and my family. So when a psalm singing Christian comes to me with a Bible in hand I would provide a sardonic laugh at such stupidity.

 

[37818]

Election is the eternal decree of God, independent of any human action or response.

No such teaching in the written word of God.

Ephesians 1:4 “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.”

This choosing is what it says it to be. That choosing is not the elect's election.

 

[Brightfame52]

Loraine Boettner once commented on the human condition and sin , something I’ve found profound. “How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates him?”

Correct, God is Light, and we men by nature hate the light and love the darkness Jn 3:19

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

We naturally love what we are by nature Eph 5:8


For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

 

[ParticularWife]

No such teaching in the written word of God.

This choosing is what it says it to be. That choosing is not the elect's election.

Given that it specifically refers to becoming blameless, ie being washed by the blood of the lamb, it's hard to see how it could refer to anything else.
I don't think this is even a useful discussion to have at this point, I've been over this a thousand times and I'm not interested in repetitive, dead end arguments.

 

[37818]

Given that it specifically refers to becoming blameless, ie being washed by the blood of the lamb, it's hard to see how it could refer to anything else.
I don't think this is even a useful discussion to have at this point, I've been over this a thousand times and I'm not interested in repetitive, dead end arguments.

Chosen and elect are two distinct Greek terms. Both are used distinctly together in one verse as a case in point. Mark 13:20, And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Understand it is my persuasion the election is preceded by it's call in time.