.needs help

[Iconoclast]

Hey Darrell....maybe you should strap your self in :LAUGH:

here we go ewf-

So DC....you entered the original thread and offered 3 verses in post 8....
In post 10 Judith answers this way;

Nice speech but you did not deal with the question.

In post 12 you claim you did answer the question...

In post 13....Judith who started the thread asks for some clarification this way;

If only the elect, predestined, can be saved then He did not die for every person thus the question.

Notice her question is about the SAVINGLY LOVE of God...this is an exact quote...so much for your whining about changing the question....She asks her question clearly and simply....that is what was on her mind.

You deny that her question is valid here in post 14;

That is the false premise.

Read my post again.

Notice the part about Christ being the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world

She read your post the first time and it did not answer what she was asking. You think it did...but she did not.

How do I know that? Because she takes you to school as she see's you are starting trouble....her answer is crystal clear;

I am not interested in debating election verses free will. The only people who can respond to this question properly are those who hold to a limited atonement, election already set in stone. I am not saying they are wrong or they are right on the atonement issue and like I said this is not a thread to debate or discuss such. It is a thread dealing with one aspect of the belief when dealing with God's love. Thus the question I posed in the OP. So far Jon is the only one who has sought to answer the question. The rest have sought to debate their understanding of why we are saved

So several times tonight you complained about me and Rippon and mac79 saying we were changing the question...that is a lie.

Besides Judiths own words....let's follow where this goes


Now DC...I will need to break this into smaller posts so it does not branch out into ALL the world......{I am using this metaphorically}..all does not have to mean all.....they might not get internet in the rainforest yet:thumbs:

 

[Darrell C]

lol...I asked you a question...I did not say you said it...lol

Laugh it up.

It simply illustrates your sloth and sloppiness.

Stop being a drama queen....

No drama, more humor than anything. Unfortunate you do not understand...you are the source.

I am parked and online now....

A normal position for you, I would assume.

let's procede....not with this helter skelter that you are doing....let's go point for point...

Again...everything I have given you has been on point and in order.

I have shown how you piece meal posts, slice and dice, and all of this so you can throw up a smokescreen in an attempt to hide the woeful lack of familiarity with Scripture.

big boy.

Right.

You're off to a great start, I am waiting for an address of what has already been posted.

God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

Judith posted this to you...

I am not interested in debating election verses free will. The only people who can respond to this question properly are those who hold to a limited atonement, election already set in stone. I am not saying they are wrong or they are right on the atonement issue and like I said this is not a thread to debate or discuss such. It is a thread dealing with one aspect of the belief when dealing with God's love. Thus the question I posed in the OP. So far Jon is the only one who has sought to answer the question. The rest have sought to debate their understanding of why we are saved

 

[Rippon]

DC: Address these points:

Mark 1:37 says :"everyone is looking for you!"

Every single person on the earth at that time? Of course not. And it excludes the millions who had already died before that statement was made. And it excludes the billions who were not living when that was said.

Mark 5:20 : "all the people were amazed."

The same thing applies as I said above.

Mark 11:32 : "everyone held that John really was a prophet."

Ditto.

The KJV likes to use the expression "all men" --in those three passages and many more. But it really needs to be broughty to your attention that you are ignoring the context to support your man-made tradition.

Matthew 20:28 :"to give his life for many"
Mark 10:45 :"to give his life as a ransom for many"
Mark 14:24 :"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many"

You have constantly claimed that world is world.
You have claimed that everyone is everyone.
You have claimed that all men means all men.

You have consistently ignored the context where these expressions are used in various translations. So now, how do you handle the expression "for many"?

 

[Iconoclast]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we move to post 17...you say-


Darrell C

I see. Sorry, thought it was a question you sincerely wanted answered.

I am not sure why I thought that.

She did want it answered. She explained that to you three times and the last time told you that your responses DID NOT answer the question she wanted answered......you think you did, but you were wrong.

You then say;

On the contrary, those who hold to limited atonement cannot properly answer the question, except for those who do not want to acknowledge that God did in fact so love the world, not the Elect, but the world, that He sent His Son to die in their stead.

When I read this post I as one holding to limited atonement, Definite Atonement, Particular Redemption figured to answer it as it was clearly misguided.

Why was it misguided? You say those who hold to limited atonement cannot answer the question....you were wrong on that. In fact we can give the biblical answer ...you do not like it, you think it is wrong...but we can answer it quite thoroughly.

I understand now, lol.

I am pretty sure you do not understand yet...that's why this thread will help you.

If you say so. I thought it was a pretty answer though I might take issue with...

? I just kept it here so you do not complain that I removed your "words"

By the way DC...your words are not inspired and I agree with Rippon who suggested you were long winded and really just repeat yourself.

...as it is clear that God loved the world as a whole, sent the Comforter to the world as a whole, died for the world as a whole...and all this before men were saved.

Now you offer your ideas....completely ignoring the BIBLCIAL FACT that God is a Covenant keeping God and has an eternal plan and purpose that He has revealed to the church.Eph 3:9-11...
perhaps you could share your thoughts on this? you have posted 2000 + times , you can show your best post on God's covenant or Covenants of promise . Who are they made with?

In discussing the Covenant of Redemption...the idea of God's loyal love, His mercy is prominent.......do you have some thoughts on this as the topic of the OP is the saving love of God.....

Your last sentence speaks of before men were saved....could you take a minute to address what was in place before men were saved?

That love extends to prior to salvation in individuals and to suggest that God's love favors any particular person on a salvific level suggests respect of persons, which does not have a consistency with what Scripture tells us about God.

This is another false charge as no Cal believes that God is a respecter of persons

There is no debate.

There is a debate when you resist truth and suggest error.

We are saved because of God's love.

Not because we are Elect, but because we are loved.

It is not an either or...but both and.....Election is crucial as Salvation is all of God.

1 John 4:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

This is a great verse...but it does not support your position at all. John writes this to believers.

But I can understand not wanting to be interrupted by an opposing view, so I will bow out.

She wanted her question answered...you did not do it...

next case-

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire View Post
Hey Darrell....maybe you should strap your self in :LAUGH:

here we go ewf-

I see your inability forces you to appeal for support.

Not one of your buddies has yet to address the Scriptures posted.

Of course, because you have run and hidden in another thread where you can distract from what was said there, that goes without saying.

So DC....you entered the original thread and offered 3 verses in post 8....
In post 10 Judith answers this way;

Quote:
Nice speech but you did not deal with the question.

We can see your dishonesty here, as I remember clearly her spelling on this.

Here is the post:

Originally Posted by Judith View Post
Recently I saw a poster that said the bible is the only book in the world where the Author is in love with every person who reads it.

Just a side note if I was writing that I would change it to "loves every person who reads it" instead of "is in love with every person who reads it." None the less

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

That God so loved the world is simply a Bible Basic.

John the Baptist reinforced the simplicity of God's love in saying...


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


He does not prophesy that the sins of those who read the Bible will be taken away, but that the Gift has come to the world as a whole, and that opportunity is presented to every man and woman.

Salvation has always been about obedience to the Word of God, which is the Gospel in every Age. IN this Age we have the specific Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the unveiling of what the Word of God has progressively revealed over the course of History, as attested by the Writer of Hebrews, and in fact important enough that he begins His Epistle making this point:


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


We have to be careful in not imposing into Election any semblance of effort or accomplishment in those who believe to the saving of the soul. The Lord did not look into world history in advance and select those He knew would respond in faith, but quite the contrary, He looked into the History of Man and saw that no man would, of himself, have the ability to do the first thing by which He could justify that person and grant Eternal Life.

That is the heart of the very Gospel of Christ, that man is sinful, separated from God, and not only bereft of the means of saving himself...but in opposition to being saved.

Only through the combination of the revelation of the Gospel of Christ and the Ministry of the Comforter do we see man eternally redeemed, which redemption was unveiled by God in Christ, Who was God.

God provided Himself a Lamb, because among mankind there was not one, not a single solitary individual, who could accomplish that which only God could, and that is...saving us.


God bless.

And here is the response:

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
That God so loved the world is simply a Bible Basic.

John the Baptist reinforced the simplicity of God's love in saying...


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


He does not prophesy that the sins of those who read the Bible will be taken away, but that the Gift has come to the world as a whole, and that opportunity is presented to every man and woman.

Salvation has always been about obedience to the Word of God, which is the Gospel in every Age. IN this Age we have the specific Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the unveiling of what the Word of God has progressively revealed over the course of History, as attested by the Writer of Hebrews, and in fact important enough that he begins His Epistle making this point:


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


We have to be careful in not imposing into Election any semblance of effort or accomplishment in those who believe to the saving of the soul. The Lord did not look into world history in advance and select those He knew would respond in faith, but quite the contrary, He looked into the History of Man and saw that no man would, of himself, have the ability to do the first thing by which He could justify that person and grant Eternal Life.

That is the heart of the very Gospel of Christ, that man is sinful, separated from God, and not only bereft of the means of saving himself...but in opposition to being saved.

Only through the combination of the revelation of the Gospel of Christ and the Ministry of the Comforter do we see man eternally redeemed, which redemption was unveiled by God in Christ, Who was God.

God provided Himself a Lamb, because among mankind there was not one, not a single solitary individual, who could accomplish that which only God could, and that is...saving us.


God bless.

Nice speach but you did not deal with the quesation.

Here we see your dishonesty in quoting.

See those little arrows, those are the links that one can click on to see who is actually doing a word for word response.

I don't mind giving someone a chance to try to save face, but the fact that you are dishonest and it is so evident makes me think there is little sense in continuing this with you.

Not sure I want to deal with "queezation" you inspire.


Continued...

 

[Iconoclast]

The saving Love of God is only found In Christ. Romans 5 Rom 8

It is a covenant love. Jer 31

The love of God is only for those who believe.

The wrath of God abides upon the unbeliever.
God is good to all men

God only savingly loves the elect IN Christ. Jesus died for them and turns away the wrath from them alone. He is the propitiation,

Gods love finds the elect all over the world.

I enter in in post 19...I answer Judith's question quite simply.

 

[Iconoclast]

Darrell C

I see your inability forces you to appeal for support.

Not at all. It was the shortest post to quote to get started.

Not one of your buddies has yet to address the Scriptures posted

.

They have but you cannot grasp it you are to busy mocking....b

Of course, because you have run and hidden in another thread where you can distract from what was said there, that goes without saying.

:laugh: This lame , pathetic excuse is being evaporated right now.....
everything is being brought over in sequence....no gaps...nothing missed so stop with your shoddy excuse.

Everyone can put up both threads and compare. It is becoming obvious you will be the one who cannot respond meaningfully to the scripture....
as your frustration increases your personal attacks increase to no avail.

We can see your dishonesty here, as I remember clearly her spelling on this.

There is a thing called spell check and auto correct...stop looking for excuses and loop holes

Here we see your dishonesty in quoting.

Why lie? I am quoting everything....

See those little arrows, those are the links that one can click on to see who is actually doing a word for word response.

they can and those interested will.....you are evading the issue but I will not let you sneak away so easy.....you wanted this....so take each post and give your sad tale:laugh:

I don't mind giving someone a chance to try to save face, but the fact that you are dishonest and it is so evident makes me think there is little sense in continuing this with you.

Liar.....you are now constructing an alibi and excuse because it is you who cannot back up your claims and as we proceed your woeful ignorance will be on display.....you wanted it , you got it....all day you said I was "running away" as I was driving from Pa. to Tennesee.....by Monday I will be in east Texas...so stop your complaining....

The only reason you will not continue is that the truth prevails and it is becoming clear who is dishonest.....there is more coming:thumbs:

Not sure I want to deal with "queezation" you inspire.

It is you who are dishonest and it will become abundantly clear as we continue.

 

[Iconoclast]

I give a brief answer in post 20...to you- I will post them again in case you cannot find them


I offer Amos 3 :
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
and romans 8:
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



God set His love on Israel[not on every individual...but the elect within the nation}

God has placed His love in the new hearts of His elect.[where ever they are in the world...but not everyone in the world}

answer this;

The scripture explains God's love as In Christ and for the elect,,,it says NOTHING can separate US from the love of God...and yet your teaching says that multitudes do get separated from it33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

 

[Iconoclast]

You answer here; in post 24

QUOTE=Darrell C;2221799]I have answered the question: God manifested and manifests His love for the world as a whole through taking upon Himself the form of man and dying to present the opportunity for salvation to every man, which He is currently doing through the Ministry of the Comforter.

Not one person will stand before God and say "But...you didn't tell me!"

God manifests this same love through the internal witness given to every man and woman, as well as through the testimony of Creation.[/QUOTE]

The witness of conscience and creation let men know there is a God and leaves them without excuse.....It does not speak about the saving love of God as you claim.
I know of no missionary who goes into the jungle and finds Christians already trusting the Lord. they know there is a God, yes...so they create idols that are dead;
Psalm 115 King James Version (KJV)

115 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

 

[Iconoclast]

In the same post...you say;

Because He is actually...not willing that any should perish, even as we are told in His Word.

But looking at the actual text...it does not say that at all as we have seen...It said God is longsuffering to usward,not willing that {any of them] perish , but that all come to repentance. Iadded the emphasis because it is clearly shown in the passage that is the teaching....I spoke on this as we will see , but you tried to shrug it off.....be patient we will see this soon.

That is not what is in view. Nobody is saying everyone gets saved, we are looking at God's love and whether it is bestowed only on the Elect, or if it is bestowed upon all men.

The savingly love of God does not go to all men. That is what is in dispute.

Now try to look at men before they are saved. All men are born separated from God, lost, and natural.

I agree as eph 2 declares this...even as others.

To think that God loved those who are of the Elect because He saw in advance that they would choose to respond to the Gospel, or the contemporary will of God in their day before the Gospel of Christ was revealed to men, then you have just taught that men are saved by a work they effect, namely...believing.

I rejected this statement and explained that God never does this and no cal teaches this.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

From the 1689 confession of faith;

You have effectively nullified Ephesians 2:8-10.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, and that not of ourselves.

Well obviously this has not taken place.

They are not saved before they are saved.

of course not.

They stand on equal ground with all men until their understanding is enlightened by God and they yield in obedience to the Gospel

.
okay

Are you going to say that only the Elect are brought under conviction?

Many men are convicted by the Spirit but many are not savingly convicted as are the elect.

By the way...one of several verses you rejected shows this ...but you did not understand the verse at all and rejected it at least 2 or 3 times.....10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

There is a sorrow for sin caused by the Spirits conviction that leads to a "Godly sorrow" that works repentance to salvation.....that is what we are speaking about...so it is relevant despite your claim that it is not...I will point it out to you when it appears...

But some are convicted in a worldly way....that leads to death.... they might be sorry they got caught commiting a sin or crime but they are not saved from sin by the SAVING LOVE of God.






John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

good verses, but they say nothing about God's love in particular as I said to you originally. Why do I need to comment here as they are truly not on topic.

Does this nullify the fact that Christ was the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world? It's a very simple verse. Does this nullify Paul's teaching that even the Gentiles kept the Law of God because of the internal witness God has placed in every man?

Paul does not say the gentiles Kept the law...you have it wrong....he did say they do by nature the things contained in the law...the image of God while broken in the fall has remnants that are in their conscience in broken pieces.


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Good verses men are responsible before God and without excuse...but they are truth suppressors which I said to you and you denied it...I will show it when we get to that post. Do you deny you posted that? Would you like to change your statement now?


[

B]Romans 2:14-15[/B]

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

I commented on this, and yet this does not save anyone...heathen gentiles do not KEEP the law and you falsely stated.

There is only one reason why we love God...because He first loved us.

God initiates salvation, not man.

This is one of the few things you posted correctly.

Sorry, I do not see Elect in this verse...

Do you hate the teaching of election?


[

SIZE="3"]John 3:16


If one wants to rewrite Scripture and remove the love of God for the world, have at it.

no...we just understand the verse

 

[convicted1]

DC: Address these points:

Mark 1:37 says :"everyone is looking for you!"

Every single person on the earth at that time? Of course not. And it excludes the millions who had already died before that statement was made. And it excludes the billions who were not living when that was said.

Mark 5:20 : "all the people were amazed."

The same thing applies as I said above.

Mark 11:32 : "everyone held that John really was a prophet."

Ditto.

The KJV likes to use the expression "all men" --in those three passages and many more. But it really needs to be broughty to your attention that you are ignoring the context to support your man-made tradition.

Matthew 20:28 :"to give his life for many"
Mark 10:45 :"to give his life as a ransom for many"
Mark 14:24 :"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many"

You have constantly claimed that world is world.
You have claimed that everyone is everyone.
You have claimed that all men means all men.

You have consistently ignored the context where these expressions are used in various translations. So now, how do you handle the expression "for many"?

Now there you go and properly exegeted a lot of verses!! Shame on you!! That's foreign in these here parts...


:thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

 

[Darrell C]

In post 12 you claim you did answer the question...

I answered the "Quesation," all right."

Is there some reason you mention this and don't actually quote the response?

Here it is:

Originally Posted by Judith View Post
Nice speach but you did not deal with the quesation.

Quote:
If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

Not sure how you miss the fact that Christ dying for all men, and all men being made aware of that fact...doesn't answer the question.

Maybe you could explain that to me.

On second thought, never mind.

I would just point out that within the answer there is, in case you didn't notice, also mention of the false premise that the question hinges on.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled posting.


God bless.

And this after quoting her own quesation.

I mean, I thought it was a nice speech myself...

In post 13....Judith who started the thread asks for some clarification this way;

If only the elect, predestined, can be saved then He did not die for every person thus the question.

This is not asking for clarification, it is a dogmatic statement:

If only the elect, predestined, can be saved then He did not die for every person thus the question.

Notice her question is about the SAVINGLY LOVE of God...

In your wildest dreams.

It is a dogmatic statement rooted in the same fluffy theology you embrace.

Here is the OP:

Recently I saw a poster that said the bible is the only book in the world where the Author is in love with every person who reads it.

Just a side note if I was writing that I would change it to "loves every person who reads it" instead of "is in love with every person who reads it." None the less

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

You do understand the difference between a statement and a quesation, right?

this is an exact quote...

Very good Iconoclast, now if you will just learn to get the tags in there.

so much for your whining about changing the question....

Wait, I'm not done with you yet.

You and she both change the question.

Let's see in that in slo-mo...

The question of the OP:

Recently I saw a poster that said the bible is the only book in the world where the Author is in love with every person who reads it.

Just a side note if I was writing that I would change it to "loves every person who reads it" instead of "is in love with every person who reads it." None the less

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

The question you want the OP to ask:

If only the elect, predestined, can be saved then He did not die for every person thus the question.

And the obvious fact to everyone except for you two is...the second is not even a question.

In fact...it does not even qualify as a quesation.

If you'll just stop long enough to actually read what it is you think you are responding to, you might just see that she is giving the reason for the question. And not even that makes sense.

Why would the fact that only the saved will be saved have anything to do with the actual question of the OP...


We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

The answer to the question was given and that was included above, in case your interested in what an answer to a question looks like.

She asks her question clearly and simply....that is what was on her mind.

This...

If only the elect, predestined, can be saved then He did not die for every person thus the question.

...is not a question.

You deny that her question is valid here in post 14;

Quote:
That is the false premise.

Read my post again.

Notice the part about Christ being the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world

And I stand by that.

Would you care to, at this time...respond to the Scripture in this post?

It's a simple concept: John the Baptist prophesies and states it very clearly...


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

How about the other one:


Salvation has always been about obedience to the Word of God, which is the Gospel in every Age. IN this Age we have the specific Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the unveiling of what the Word of God has progressively revealed over the course of History, as attested by the Writer of Hebrews, and in fact important enough that he begins His Epistle making this point:


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

...?

I won't hold my breath.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

She read your post the first time and it did not answer what she was asking. You think it did...but she did not.

And she was wrong. Just like you are wrong.

Not sure how many times it has to be posted:

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

Understanding the question yet?

Let me try to say it another way: How is the love of God manifested for those not predestined/chosen?

The question backfires on her, though, and she gets an answer to the questions of the OP she didn't want.

How do I know that?

Because you have trained yourself carefully at the art of self delusion?

The historicist view will do that I understand. And if you can look at Scripture and not see what is written, why would I expect anything different when you slice and dice your way through a post.

I guess maybe I would suggest you stay away from more complicated concepts.

Because she takes you to school as she see's you are starting trouble....her answer is crystal clear;

Clearly wrong, that is crystal, lol.

I am not interested in debating election verses free will. The only people who can respond to this question properly are those who hold to a limited atonement, election already set in stone. I am not saying they are wrong or they are right on the atonement issue and like I said this is not a thread to debate or discuss such. It is a thread dealing with one aspect of the belief when dealing with God's love. Thus the question I posed in the OP. So far Jon is the only one who has sought to answer the question. The rest have sought to debate their understanding of why we are saved

Clearly not interested in debating election versus free will, but clearly not interested in testing her own doctrine with Scripture.

But here is the response I gave:

Originally Posted by Judith View Post

I am not interested in debating election verses free will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judith View Post
If only the elect can be saved then He did not die for every person.

I see. Sorry, thought it was a question you sincerely wanted answered.

I am not sure why I thought that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judith View Post
The only people who can respond to this question properly are those who hold to a limited atonement, election already set in stone.

On the contrary, those who hold to limited atonement cannot properly answer the question, except for those who do not want to acknowledge that God did in fact so love the world, not the Elect, but the world, that He sent His Son to die in their stead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judith View Post
I am not saying they are wrong or they are right on the atonement issue and like I said this is not a thread to debate or discuss such.

I understand now, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judith View Post
It is a thread dealing with one aspect of the belief when dealing with God's love. Thus the question I posed in the OP. So far Jon is the only one who has sought to answer the question.

If you say so. I thought it was a pretty answer though I might take issue with...

Quote:
So while I believe that God does love every person, it would be wrong to assert that His love for one who rejects Him is identical to those called His own.

...as it is clear that God loved the world as a whole, sent the Comforter to the world as a whole, died for the world as a whole...and all this before men were saved. That love extends to prior to salvation in individuals and to suggest that God's love favors any particular person on a salvific level suggests respect of persons, which does not have a consistency with what Scripture tells us about God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judith View Post
The rest have sought to debate their understanding of why we are saved.

There is no debate.

We are saved because of God's love.

Not because we are Elect, but because we are loved.


1 John 4:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.


But I can understand not wanting to be interrupted by an opposing view, so I will bow out.


God bless.

So several times tonight you complained about me and Rippon and mac79 saying we were changing the question...that is a lie.

And here is your real problem, you are more interested in defending yourself, not Scripture, not Sound Doctrine.

I have shown clearly in this post that you have changed the question, you have lied about direct quotes, and that your buddies, as well as the OP...simply could not grasp the question because of the blindness you suffer in your loyalty to self and Systematic Theology.

Besides Judiths own words....let's follow where this goes

I am guessing there is supposed to be something here?

Now DC...I will need to break this into smaller posts so it does not branch out into ALL the world......{I am using this metaphorically}..all does not have to mean all.....they might not get internet in the rainforest yet

All does mean all when it is spoken in Scripture:

Here are some verses you have consistently run from:


Ephesians 3:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,



1 Timothy 2:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;




1 Timothy 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.

And if you would like to continue, you are going to have to start shedding some of that sloth.

For the last time, all you need to do is copy and paste the code...

([QUOTE=Iconoclast;2223799)

...(which is the first thing you will see when hit "QUOTE") before each statement you want to quote, and after each statement copy and paste...

(/QUOTE)

...after each statement.

I see no reason to bother extending my stay for someone that hasn't bothered to learn to do this after posting so much on this forum.


God bless.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Iconoclast....

Kudos!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[Darrell C]

Judith posted this to you...

I am not interested in debating election verses free will. The only people who can respond to this question properly are those who hold to a limited atonement, election already set in stone. I am not saying they are wrong or they are right on the atonement issue and like I said this is not a thread to debate or discuss such. It is a thread dealing with one aspect of the belief when dealing with God's love. Thus the question I posed in the OP. So far Jon is the only one who has sought to answer the question. The rest have sought to debate their understanding of why we are saved

And it is clear that it is not only those who hold to limited atonement can answer. There are two threads showing that now.

It is a thread dealing with one aspect of the belief when dealing with God's love

Agreed:

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

Seeing the question yet?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Now there you go and properly exegeted a lot of verses!! Shame on you!! That's foreign in these here parts...

Could you actually point out this exegesis you speak of?

And while your at it, care to respond to any of the points made?

Or is your only contribution on this forum...

Brother Iconoclast....

Kudos!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:

...videos?

And if you have answered any of the questions in the other threads let me know.

Cheerleaders. What a nuisance...


God bless.

 

[convicted1]

Could you actually point out this exegesis you speak of?

And while your at it, care to respond to any of the points made?

Or is your only contribution on this forum...



...videos?

And if you have answered any of the questions in the other threads let me know.

Cheerleaders. What a nuisance...


God bless.

I am just watching Brother Iconoclast beating you like you're the 'threshing floor'....

 

[Darrell C]

DC: Address these points:

Mark 1:37 says :"everyone is looking for you!"

Every single person on the earth at that time? Of course not. And it excludes the millions who had already died before that statement was made. And it excludes the billions who were not living when that was said.

Mark 5:20 : "all the people were amazed."

The same thing applies as I said above.

Mark 11:32 : "everyone held that John really was a prophet."

Ditto.

The KJV likes to use the expression "all men" --in those three passages and many more. But it really needs to be broughty to your attention that you are ignoring the context to support your man-made tradition.

Matthew 20:28 :"to give his life for many"
Mark 10:45 :"to give his life as a ransom for many"
Mark 14:24 :"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many"

You have constantly claimed that world is world.
You have claimed that everyone is everyone.
You have claimed that all men means all men.

You have consistently ignored the context where these expressions are used in various translations. So now, how do you handle the expression "for many"?

Rippon, let's see you address these first:

Attention please. You did not cite Romans 5:5 :
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Now that is very specific. God's love has not been poured out into the hearts of everyone --only the elect have been the recepients of the Holy Spirit which has been given to us alone.

In verse 9 Paul discusses the fact that we have been justified by his blood and not only that but that we will be saved from God's wrath through him!

And the following verse just emphazise the theme. His love is special, specific and only certain ones are the beneficiaries of His love.

That is not relevant to the OP.

Of course the love of God has been poured out into our hearts when we are saved, the question is does God extend His love only to those who are saved?

The problem with that is this: you also have to say God did not love us before He saved us, if you are saying His love is only manifested towards men after they are saved.


Was this man...


Mark 10:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.


...Elect?


God bless.

Here's the response I got:

DC, your posts are much too long-winded. And you have the tendency to repeat yourself too often.

There is value in making more concise posts.

What's so long winded about this response? Seems fairly short, and only one passage to answer.

Our next exchange, which is a portion of your response to Van:

Originally Posted by Rippon View Post
You are again in opposition to God's Holy Word.

You need to read with more understanding.

The word "world" is not in the text. So your vanology comes up short once again.

Is it in this...


John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


...?

And does this...


Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


...not say that the free gift came upon all men?


God bless.

When reviewing, I saw your response:

Originally Posted by Rippon View Post

DC, your posts are much too long-winded. And you have the tendency to repeat yourself too often.

There is value in making more concise posts.

That's funny, the following does not seem to be longwinded and repetitive:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rippon View Post
Attention please. You did not cite Romans 5:5 :
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Now that is very specific. God's love has not been poured out into the hearts of everyone --only the elect have been the recepients of the Holy Spirit which has been given to us alone.

In verse 9 Paul discusses the fact that we have been justified by his blood and not only that but that we will be saved from God's wrath through him!

And the following verse just emphazise the theme. His love is special, specific and only certain ones are the beneficiaries of His love.

That is not relevant to the OP.

Of course the love of God has been poured out into our hearts when we are saved, the question is does God extend His love only to those who are saved?

The problem with that is this: you also have to say God did not love us before He saved us, if you are saying His love is only manifested towards men after they are saved.


Was this man...

Mark 10:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

...Elect?


God bless.

Would you care to answer the question or just skip right to "I can't answer so I will make derisive comments and maybe nobody will notice I ignored the point and question I was scared to answer"?

Answer the Question, and then perhaps your opinion of me might mean something.

And again, we are not discussing God's love manifested to the regenerate, but God's love manifested towards the lost:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

God bless.

The next exchange was...

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
As a matter of fact there is currently, to our knowledge...no-one in Hell right now.

The residents of Hell most vociferously dispute your incredibly false statement.

Do you think those who have not gone to Heaven are in Purgatory, Limbo --or are you an annihilationalist?

My response:

Originally Posted by Rippon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
As a matter of fact there is currently, to our knowledge...no-one in Hell right now.

The residents of Hell most vociferously dispute your incredibly false statement.

Do you think those who have not gone to Heaven are in Purgatory, Limbo --or are you an annihilationalist?

Great vocabulary.

Scripture?


God bless.

So that everything between us.

Who answered who, who addressed the Scripture, and who supplied a Biblical Response when asked?

Not you.

And you want to do the same thing Iconoclast is doing?

Run from those questions and points and ask more questions?

I don't think so.

So show me how those vociferously disagreeing people in Hell disagree with me.

Show me the Scripture.

I have seen enough proof-texting to last a life time, not to mention cheerleading, lol.

The ball is in your court. Time to practice a different kind of dribbling.


God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

I see your inability forces you to appeal for support.

Not one of your buddies has yet to address the Scriptures posted.

Of course, because you have run and hidden in another thread where you can distract from what was said there, that goes without saying.




We can see your dishonesty here, as I remember clearly her spelling on this.

Here is the post:






And here is the response:




Here we see your dishonesty in quoting.

See those little arrows, those are the links that one can click on to see who is actually doing a word for word response.

I don't mind giving someone a chance to try to save face, but the fact that you are dishonest and it is so evident makes me think there is little sense in continuing this with you.

Not sure I want to deal with "queezation" you inspire.


Continued...

So anytime people fix spelling mistakes in post they quote it is being dishonest? Wow I missed that one, must be in Hezekiah somewhere.
If this was a formal setting sure it would be expected that you would leave it as is and put sic in, but this is an internet forum not a college paper. Did he change what she said? Seems like a petty issue to get so worked up over.