New Birth before and Unto Faith !

[Yeshua1]

>how can faith be a work that we do, as the lord Himself says ONLY thru and by faith in jesus we are saved, and that is the command of God to believe on the One that he has sent?

Following orders is not (a) work???

not since the Lord Himself said that only by faith in him can we get saved!

 

[savedbymercy]

how does God apply the grace from the Cross towards our account, if not by faith?

Grace is applied by the Holy Spirit by giving New Birth. Everyone Christ died for is given a New Birth by His resurrected Life 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Faith is born out that Lively Hope, a Fruit of the Spirit !


But, as far as Justification before God is concerned, Christ's Death, His blood alone is the bases for Justification ! The resurrection of Christ is evidence that all for whom Christ died are Justified before God Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

You reject this however, a teach a false gospel whereby man is Justified by his act, his work !

 

[savedbymercy]

billwald

>how can faith be a work that we do, as the lord Himself says ONLY thru and by faith in jesus we are saved, and that is the command of God to believe on the One that he has sent?

So you believe one is saved by keeping an command of God !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BW: Following orders is not (a) work???

HP: Faith is indeed a work in the sense it involves an act of the will just as all works originate by. Those who try to separate faith from a work are supporting the notion that dead faith can save.

Just as repentance is a condition of salvation, so is faith in Christ's atoning work. They are both works in the sense they involve acts of the will, without which no one will be saved. They are NOT meritorious by any means, but they are required of us by God to do in order to receive the hope of eternal life. We are not saved by our faith or repentance, but neither will any be saved apart from fulfilling those conditions.

Faith and repentance are not the grounds of salvation. Faith and repentance are means, the conditions by which God has chosen to save us. The grounds of salvation is the grace and mercy of God alone. Conditions of salvation are always thought of in the sense of 'not without which', and NOT as 'that for the sake of' as the grounds of salvation (God's grace) is thought properly of.

We are saved for the sake of God's mercy and grace, but we will never be saved until we fulfill the conditions of salvation God has set forth, i.e., repentance and faith.

Just as a prisoner cannot work for a pardon, we cannot work for salvation. Just as a prisoner will never receive a pardon from a just governor without fulfilling certain conditions, one being having a change of heart and attitude towards ones crimes, neither will any man receive of God's grace apart from sincere repentance and faith in the atonement.

Following God's conditions are indeed works that one must do in order to be saved, yet no one is saved by ones works. The mercy of God via the shed blood of Christ alone saves.

 

[DHK]

You reject this however, a teach a false gospel whereby man is Justified by his act, his work !

Whose gospel is false? Don't you read the Scriptures.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

Whose gospel is false?

Anyone who makes their faith a condition to get saved !

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

Yes, I believe that scripture, but I do not believe you ! That verse says nothing about Faith not being a work that man does

 

[savedbymercy]

hp

HP: Faith is indeed a work in the sense it involves an act of the will just as all works originate by.

Now we agree !

Just as repentance is a condition of salvation, so is faith in Christ's atoning work. They are both works in the sense they involve acts of the will, without which no one will be saved.

Now this statement is False and is promoting salvation by works !

 

[DHK]

dhk
Yes, I believe that scripture, but I do not believe you ! That verse says nothing about Faith not being a work that man does

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

It plainly and clearly states that we are justified by faith.
Faith is not a work. But we are justified by faith. You don't believe this verse, for you claim that faith is a work, and therefore we are not justified by faith. Why do you deny the plain teaching of the Word of God?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, if faith is not a work, man is not involved. If faith is not a work, man is not involved and such faith is dead whatever it is, being alone, and will not and cannot save anyone.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Saving faith is not a mere mental assent, but rather faith must be integrated as an act of the will to become saving faith.

 

[DHK]

DHK, if faith is not a work, man is not involved. If faith is not a work, man is not involved and such faith is dead whatever it is, being alone, and will not and cannot save anyone.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Saving faith is not a mere mental assent, but rather faith must be integrated as an act of the will to become saving faith.

It is pitiful that you have to bring this verse from James into this discussion. Who said anything about dead faith? Why the red herring? If you don't understand what is being discussed better not post at all.

 

[Yeshua1]

hp



Now we agree !



Now this statement is False and is promoting salvation by works !

again, jesus Himself said that UNLESS YOU BELIEVE that I am he, you will die in your sins!

paul stated believe in your hearts and confess with your mouth jesus is Lord, and you shall be saved!

Were they both teaching a "false Gospel?"

 

[DHK]

DHK, if faith is not a work, man is not involved. If faith is not a work, man is not involved and such faith is dead whatever it is, being alone, and will not and cannot save anyone.

If faith is a work, then your faith (Christianity) is no different from any other cult or major religion like Hinduism, and you have no salvation.
Salvation is not of works. It is by faith alone.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, you are like a blind man holding to the tail of an elephant and describing the elephant as being long and thin.

Your argument is with Scripture, not me. You kick against the pricks.

"Faith without works is dead being alone."

 

[DHK]

DHK, you are like a blind man holding to the tail of an elephant and describing the elephant as being long and thin.

Your argument is with Scripture, not me. You kick against the pricks.

"Faith without works is dead being alone."

As I said, James is a complete red herring. If you are unable to keep to the topic then don't post.

Your statement only shows that you don't have the ability to answer a post with any intelligence.

 

[savedbymercy]

again, jesus Himself said that UNLESS YOU BELIEVE that I am he, you will die in your sins!

paul stated believe in your hearts and confess with your mouth jesus is Lord, and you shall be saved!

Were they both teaching a "false Gospel?"

I have no problem with what Jesus said, but it is the false teaching of work mongers, who teach that salvation is a result of their acts of righteousness, like repentance, faith, confessing sin. That is entirely against scripture. Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You rebel against that !

 

[savedbymercy]

If faith is a work, then your faith (Christianity) is no different from any other cult or major religion like Hinduism, and you have no salvation.
Salvation is not of works. It is by faith alone.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

You hit the nail on the head, those who teach that they are saved by their act of Faith or believing, they are no different than any other work religion.

For salvation is not of works, which is described by the word ergon :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work

Believing is a work, an activity of the Mind or Heart, for they are the same thing. The greek word for heart in Rom 10:9-10 is defined here:

the heart

a) that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life

b) denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life

1) the vigour and sense of physical life

2) the centre and seat of spiritual life

a) the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

b) of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

c) of the will and character

d) of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions

c) of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate


There is no significant if any difference in the heart of man or the mind of man !

Gen 6:5

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Now who wants to argue and debate that the imagination and thoughts of man are not directly related to his mind !

Now the word believe in both Rom 10:9-10 are performance verbs, action verbs ! Believing is performed with the hearth or mind, and falls into what the scripture defines as a work !

So you can deny it from here to dooms day, if you believe in salvation because of your faith, believing, you believe in salvation by works !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

(addressing DHK's post)
sbm: You hit the nail on the head, those who teach that they are saved by their act of Faith or believing, they are no different than any other work religion.

HP: Sbm, what you have done is to prove yourself every bit of incapable of reading comprehension as DHK has shown of himself.

Being the nice guy I am, I will give you as many tries as it takes to get it right. No one believes anyone is saved by their act of anything period. Comprende? Let me state it again. NOTHING that anyone can do has the least merit to save period.

Now lets see if you or DHK have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge the real facts as believed by those opposing the deterministic necessity most commonly known the world over as the system of Calvinism.

Once more for good measure. NOTHING has any merit to save but by the grace and mercy of God and the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Nothing we can or could ever do, has the least merit to save; not repentance, not faith, not continued obedience.

The false accusation by sbm and DHK of preaching salvation by works in the same manner as numerous false religions, is an affront to God, the Scriptures, reason, and the truth. It shows an utter lack of common decency or fairness in articulating the beliefs of others.

 

[savedbymercy]

hp

No one believes anyone is saved by their act of anything period.

I do not know where you been, plenty of people think that way !

 

[savedbymercy]

Who shall declare His Generation ?



Isa 53:8

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The generation in question is Christ's generation, His Spiritual offspring, and being it a spiritual offspring, the speaker must be the Holy Spirit, for only God's Spirit can communicate to that which is spiritual [1 Cor 2]; even though the Spirit may and does use the voice of flesh and blood or human Gospel Ministers; This principle is brought out by Paul here 2 Cor 3:6-8

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

A Spiritual ministry directed to a spiritual people or generation in a spiritual kingdom formed by the Resurrected Life of Jesus Christ !

Also that the Gospel ministration is spiritual is seen here 1 Cor 9:11

11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

The spiritual things being the Gospel

Rom 15:27

27It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

The spiritual things once again being the Gospel !

Now the spiritual things being the gospel, and the natural man cannot receive of those things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2:13-14

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Gospel is preached to that spiritual seed or generation which is said shall serve Him, and it shall be accounted to the the Lord for a generation Ps 22:30-31

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born [Regeneration or New Birth], that he hath done this.

Its that Chosen Generation that shall offer up spiritual sacrifices 1 Pet 2:5,9

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The Prophet states, that after His soul shall be made a offering for sin Isa 53:10, that He shall see His Seed or His generation !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sbm: I do not know where you been, plenty of people think that way !

HP: Show me one quote by anyone on this list that has ever stated that we are saved by anything we do.

The problem is, that you are so blinded by your own ideas that you have not, thus far anyway, been able to comprehend what is being said by others. All you know is that it is not the so-called 'Calvinist' terminology, and that it is not the way other Calvinists explain it. Since other Calvinists have refused to do the hard work of honestly trying to comprehend what others believe, you just regurgitate old clichés falsely leveled at all others from days gone by.

Why not set yourself apart from the run of the mill blinded Calvinists, and try to see if for once you can ACURATELY depict and articulate fairly the views of others? If you could accomplish this feat, you would show yourself to be light years ahead of those you are now simply blindly following.:thumbsup: