New Doctor Who

[ccrobinson]

But it would seem that the Gallifrey in "End of Time" is just a few moments before or the same moments as "Day."

Before.

I should explain better. They happen pretty much concurrently, with the pulling of Gallifrey out of the Time Lock happening a few minutes prior to shunting Gallifrey into the pocket universe does.

I suppose in TEoT Gallifrey could have been returned to the exact moment it left and the Daleks would not have noticed.

I'm all for wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey explanations.

Also, if Gallifrey was displaced to our solar system wouldn't the War Council have noticed that?

I'm sure they did and when Gallifrey came back to the exact moment in time that it left, they realized the High Council's plan had failed. Gallifrey was falling, the madman with a box had a plan, so what did they have to lose?

Apparently there are two timey-wimey gimmicks occurring here: A Time Lock and the Zygon Time Freeze. The Time Lock is a mechanism whereby Time Lords on Gallifrey are kept isolated in a fixed space/time. This is used in TEoT. The Zygon Time Freeze essentially freezes time. This is used by the 13 Doctors in DotD.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. The Zygons possess zero time manipulation technology. If they did, they would have no need to steal the Vortex Manipulator. All the Zygons did was figure out what the Stasis Cubes did and use it for their own plans.

As is his habit Steven Moffatt does not fully explain things. He didn't explain the end result of the Zygon sub plot - - What was the result of the negotiations?

This is such a minor thing.

For one, Tennant is in present day Earth battling the Master in TEoT and preventing Rassilon from initiating The Final Sanction

There's no contradiction here. TEoT battle takes place on December 25, 2010. The Day of the Doctor does not take place on the same day.

For another, in TEoT Gallifrey is in a Time Lock so presumably no time travel to/from Gallifrey would be possible, meaning all Doctors could not converge in their Tardises and create the Time Freeze.

This was explained. The Moment is the one who opened up The Time Lock so all the Doctors could converge on Gallifrey. BTW, I counted what looked like 17 separate TARDISes.

And wouldn't there have been Dalek ships carried along?

No. No Dalek ships carried along. They probably would have noticed and thought it was another Time Lord trick that failed.


Here's something you need to watch. It's hilarious.


In the Entertainment Weekly recap of The Day of the Doctor, I found this.

By radically altering the end of the Time War, Day of the Doctor seemed to affirm that — putting aside all other difference — Moffat is decidedly more optimistic as a Who showrunner than Davies was. There was nothing in the 50th Anniversary Special as bleak as the moment in Journey’s End when Davros, in his apparent death throes, called the Doctor the Destroyer of Worlds; if anything, Day of the Doctor seemed to deny that assertion by erasing that destruction from memory. Likewise, it’s interesting to compare Day of the Doctor to The End of Time, which reopens the door to the Time War just to make the Time War happen all over again.

For Moffat's so-called shortcomings as showrunner, you can't argue with this. He took an impossible situation and somehow made it hopeful rather than hopeless.

 

[InTheLight]

Don asked, "it would seem that the Gallifrey in "End of Time" is just a few moments before or the same moments as "Day."

You answered: "Before".

Then you say: "TEoT battle takes place on December 25, 2010. The Day of the Doctor does not take place on the same day." So how can you say that the events happened on the same day and then say they didn't?

Anyway, I agree that the non-resolution of the Zygon negotiations are a minor issue. However, it would have been nice to have closure. It could have taken three sentences of dialogue to wrap it up.

I went back and looked at my recording and yes, it is evident that The Moment device dropped the Time Lock barriers so the Tardises could access Gallifrey. (But there is no explanation in TEoT as to how the White Star Diamond escaped Gallifrey.)

The Zygon "Time Freeze" as I called it is their use of Stasis Cube technology.

After thinking about it for awhile, here is a possible scenario:

The events of TEoT and DotD take place on the same day. The High Council and the War Council are working on two different plans. The High Council uses the White Star Diamond on Earth to displace Gallifrey into our solar system. After getting the signal from the Woman in White, the Doctor uses the gun Wilfred gave him and shoots the White Star Diamond breaking the link and sending Gallifrey back to the Time Lock area of space and exactly the same instant it has left.

As you said, the War Council DID notice this and figured they would go with the Doctors plan. The Moment lowers the Time Lock barrier and all the Doctors converge on Gallifrey and using Stasis Cube technology send Gallifrey into a time freeze.

[The problem with this explanation is that in TEoT there were no battles going on. It appeared that any battles were long over.]

I do like the brilliance of Moffat to completely change the dynamic of the story arc from one of remorse over destroying Gallifrey to one of hope of restoring it, while seemingly keeping continuity in force (no small feat, that.)

Now some speculation. What if the Woman in White in TEoT is The Moment's interface using a different outward appearance? (widely speculated to be the Doctor's mom)

Supposing the Doctor eventually finds Gallifrey and unthaws it from the time stasis. Won't everything simply start up again, that is, there would be Daleks on the planet's surface exterminating Gallifreyans, battles raging everywhere, essentially the war would be back on. I presume that the Master kills Rassilon (Timothy Dalton's character) when the Doctor sent Gallifrey back in TEoT. So the Master is alive on Gallifrey.

Is the museum curator a future Doctor that has retired and assumed the appearance of an older TomDoc? Or is the curator a user interface for The Moment device?

 

[ccrobinson]

So how can you say that the events happened on the same day and then say they didn't?

Yeah, that's a terrible answer and a worse explanation.

It's stated very clearly in TEoT that it's the last day of the time war, so my "before" meant that the events in TEoT precede TDotD, but by minutes. Sorry for the poor explanation.

(But there is no explanation in TEoT as to how the White Star Diamond escaped Gallifrey.)

There is one and it's terrible. A signal was sent back through time, the 4 beats in the Master's head starting when he was a child. Don't have a big problem with that. After learning about the 4 beat signal, Rassilon then threw the diamond out of the Timelock, somehow, to follow the signal. Yes, he threw it. It's pretty ridiculous.


:tonofbricks:

[The problem with this explanation is that in TEoT there were no battles going on. It appeared that any battles were long over.]

Not sure about long over, because the Citadel was smoking and crumbling around them, so it appeared to me that the Time Lords were successfully repelling the Daleks at the Citadel while the Daleks were simultaneously blasting the rest of the planet to smithereens.

Supposing the Doctor eventually finds Gallifrey and unthaws it from the time stasis. Won't everything simply start up again, that is, there would be Daleks on the planet's surface exterminating Gallifreyans, battles raging everywhere, essentially the war would be back on. I presume that the Master kills Rassilon (Timothy Dalton's character) when the Doctor sent Gallifrey back in TEoT. So the Master is alive on Gallifrey.

There were no Daleks shunted into the pocket universe with Gallifrey. Thus, if the Doctor finds Gallifrey and brings it back, there will be no war going on. In theory, there would be a lot of time passing where the Time Lords would revert back to their peaceful ways rather than continuing as the warlike people they'd become.

So the Master is alive on Gallifrey.

Absolutely. Not only is he alive, the Master is coming back. I have no basis in fact to say that, but Moffat just wrote the perfect scenario for bringing him back. Just before the Doctor shunts (or pushes if you like) Gallifrey into the pocket universe, is there any doubt that the Master would find a way to escape?

Is the museum curator a future Doctor that has retired and assumed the appearance of an older TomDoc? Or is the curator a user interface for The Moment device?

He pretty much says he is a future Doctor who's taken on the appearance of a past self, but obviously older.

 

[HeDied4U]

Too bad Doctor #9 (or is it #10 nowadays??) couldn't have made a 10 second appearance at the end of John Hurt's regeneration scene. When Hurt's Doctor began regenerating, I was really hoping we'd all be surprised. Alas, it wasn't meant to be.

To me, the best part of the special was when I heard Tom Baker's voice. He was my "first Doctor" waaaay back in the late 70's when I first started watching DW on Channel 11 in Chicago, and he still remains my favorite to this day. Saw him at a Doctor Who convention back in 1981 (maybe 82) in Chicago. Stood in line for about two hours to shake his hand and get an autograph. Afterwards, got back in line and waited about another 90 minutes to do it again. I think I might still have one of the autograph cards in my mom's attic.

 

[ccrobinson]

Heaven only knows why Eccleston didn't want to do it. Probably the same reason that Tom Baker backed out of The 5 Doctors.

 

[InTheLight]

Too bad Doctor #9 (or is it #10 nowadays??) couldn't have made a 10 second appearance at the end of John Hurt's regeneration scene. When Hurt's Doctor began regenerating, I was really hoping we'd all be surprised. Alas, it wasn't meant to be.

I thought at minimum the BBC would find some footage from one of Eccleston's episodes, perhaps unaired footage, and use FX to make it appear he had just regenerated.

 

[ccrobinson]

Too bad Doctor #9 (or is it #10 nowadays??)

Eccleston is still the 9th Doctor. The numbering doesn't change because the War Doctor isn't the Doctor. Even though he was ultimately redeemed, he still did things during the war that were un-Doctor-like.

 

[ccrobinson]

Here's the trailer for "The Time of the Doctor".

BTW, if you haven't seen it, Moffat informed recently that the Doctor has used up all his regenerations. I had thought this was the case after 8 regenerated into the War Doctor, because of his regeneration at the end of The Stolen Earth.

 

[Don]

Then I can't wait to see the explanation for the regeneration into Capaldi's Doctor....

 

[ccrobinson]

That will be explained, as well as an explanation of why he looks like Caecilius from Pompeii.

 

[Don]

That will be explained, as well as an explanation of why he looks like Caecilius from Pompeii.

................:laugh:

 

[ccrobinson]

Matt Smith was fantastic in his first few moments and last few moments as the Doctor. Untying the bow tie and imagining the goodbye from Amy were tough scenes to watch and it was so jarring to see the imposter in 11's clothes. Capaldi's first few moments were terrific. "Do you know how to fly this thing" was hysterical.

Can't wait for InTheLight to ask a passel of questions, because there was a lot going on and I was having a hard time keeping up.

Also, while I don't expect BBC America to broadcast the show without commercials, tonight was ridiculous. Way too many commercial breaks that interrupted the flow of the story so much and they seemed to last forever.

 

[Gina B]

I'd personally like a color chart comparison of the kidney color of the last two doctors. :laugh:

 

[ccrobinson]

They must not have been ginger.

 

[InTheLight]

Matt Smith was fantastic in his first few moments and last few moments as the Doctor. Untying the bow tie and imagining the goodbye from Amy were tough scenes to watch and it was so jarring to see the imposter in 11's clothes. Capaldi's first few moments were terrific. "Do you know how to fly this thing" was hysterical.

Can't wait for InTheLight to ask a passel of questions, because there was a lot going on and I was having a hard time keeping up.

Also, while I don't expect BBC America to broadcast the show without commercials, tonight was ridiculous. Way too many commercial breaks that interrupted the flow of the story so much and they seemed to last forever.

I was on vacation since Christmas, just got home yesterday and watched it last night. Agree with you on the commercials. Luckily, I had DVRed it so I could skip them.

Actually, I followed the plot fairly well. There were things I liked and things I didn't like. I'll get to that in another post (don't have time right now) but I will say this--could we please simply have a rousing stand alone story that doesn't need to tie into the Time War, Trensalore, Gallifrey, the Doctor's angst, etc.?

Also, if I heard correctly, did the Doctor say that he used up a regeneration while staying on Christmas (and kept the same appearance)? If so, I thought it cheated viewers out of some deeply traditional story elements. I guess Moffat wanted to dismiss the problem with a 13th regeneration in this episode. This was one of the things I didn't like.

 

[ccrobinson]

could we please simply have a rousing stand alone story that doesn't need to tie into the Time War, Trensalore, Gallifrey, the Doctor's angst, etc.?

I'm not sure what angst you're referring to, because a large bit of that went away after The Day of the Doctor. I don't mind the tie-in to the Time Lords either. I actually like when things work like that.

BTW, somebody on io9 (and if there's any site that gripes more about Doctor Who than io9, I don't know what it is) was speculating about whether The Name of the Doctor actually happens since the Doctor obviously doesn't die on Trenzalore. And my answer to that is, he doesn't? He could still die on Trenzalore in the future.

Also, if I heard correctly, did the Doctor say that he used up a regeneration while staying on Christmas (and kept the same appearance)?

No, he did not say that. He was explaining to Clara that he's used up his 12 regenerations. She said that he's the 11th, so he shouldn't have used them up, but he reminds her of Captain Grumpy (the War Doctor) and that he didn't call himself the Doctor during the war, but it was still him. He also explained that his previous incarnation regenerated once (vanity issues) and didn't change (The Stolen Earth), but it was still a regeneration.

Maybe it would have been interesting to see the Doctor go through a season where the stakes are higher and we know that if he dies, he's really dead, but I don't think much would be different. A Time Lord has no guarantee of regenerating. In The Caves of Androzani (best regeneration story ever), when he's dying, the Doctor says, "Maybe I'll regenerate", suggesting that he's not sure whether he will or not.

Let's give a few props to Moffat for making the Daleks scarier during his time and his time isn't over yet. The Daleks will never return to their former stature after RTD neutered them, but Moffat has tried hard to make them big and bad again.

BTW, it's official. Day of the Doctor is the best 11 story. The rest of my Top 5 is (in order) The Doctor's Wife, The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, The Eleventh Hour and Vincent and the Doctor.

As far as the worst stories of Matt Smith's era, I think it's The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe, with The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood close behind. Dramatically, The Wedding of River Song, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, and The Angels take Manhattan are good, but the big plot holes in are hard to overlook.

 

[shodan]

I keep forgetting that this is also the Inter-Galactic Travel Forum!

 

[InTheLight]

BTW, somebody on io9 (and if there's any site that gripes more about Doctor Who than io9, I don't know what it is) was speculating about whether The Name of the Doctor actually happens since the Doctor obviously doesn't die on Trenzalore. And my answer to that is, he doesn't? He could still die on Trenzalore in the future.

What is io9?

Agree with you on Trenzalore.

No, he did not say that. He was explaining to Clara that he's used up his 12 regenerations. She said that he's the 11th, so he shouldn't have used them up, but he reminds her of Captain Grumpy (the War Doctor) and that he didn't call himself the Doctor during the war, but it was still him. He also explained that his previous incarnation regenerated once (vanity issues) and didn't change (The Stolen Earth), but it was still a regeneration.

OK, so he'd run out of regenerations. I noticed in Time that the Doctor said he was given a new regeneration cycle. Does that mean a one-off or a full load of 12 more regenerations?

Let's give a few props to Moffat for making the Daleks scarier during his time and his time isn't over yet. The Daleks will never return to their former stature after RTD neutered them, but Moffat has tried hard to make them big and bad again.

I guess so. RTD did devalue the Daleks but he also had the great story "Dalek". Frankly, I'm tired of the Daleks.

BTW, it's official. Day of the Doctor is the best 11 story. The rest of my Top 5 is (in order) The Doctor's Wife, The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, The Eleventh Hour and Vincent and the Doctor.

I'd go with:
Day of the Doctor
Doctor's Wife
The Eleventh Hour
The Lodger
The God Complex

Honorable mention to Cold War.

As far as the worst stories of Matt Smith's era, I think it's The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe, with The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood close behind. Dramatically, The Wedding of River Song, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, and The Angels take Manhattan are good, but the big plot holes in are hard to overlook.

Worst:
Curse of the Black Spot
Night Terrors

Some things about Time that I didn't like:
The Doctor deferring and submitting himself to Mother Superious, the endorsement of the Church of the Papal Mainframe, flirting with Mother Superious.

The Doctor appearing nude in front of Clara and the ongoing unnecessary allusion to nudity with holographic clothing.

The Doctor resigning himself to staying in Christmas instead of trying to solve the situation.

But the worst was the idea that after 300 years of the Time Lords chanting Doctor Who from the crack in the wall they finally decided to help him only after Clara begs them to help.

 

[ccrobinson]

What is io9?

A blog billing itself as "science and entertainment from the world of tomorrow". They follow all science fiction TV, movies and books. I get some good information from there sometimes.

Does that mean a one-off or a full load of 12 more regenerations?

I think it's a full cycle. It wouldn't make much sense for them to not give a full cycle. They gave a full cycle to the Master and certainly would for the Doctor.

Frankly, I'm tired of the Daleks.

Everybody's tired of the Daleks.

The Doctor resigning himself to staying in Christmas instead of trying to solve the situation.

That was the point. There was no resolution. If he would have answered the question, the Time Lords would have had a point in time and space to lock onto and come back. Incidentally, this is what happened at Amy's wedding. The Doctor needed Amy to remember him so he had a point in time and space to lock onto and come back.

Anyway, if he leaves things on their own, the Daleks and Cybermen and others would have destroyed the planet to eliminate the crack. They might have even tried to open it wider and send in some Daleks to exterminate everybody on the other side. The Doctor really had no other option but to do what he did.

The Doctor deferring and submitting himself to Mother Superious, the endorsement of the Church of the Papal Mainframe, flirting with Mother Superious.

There is some speculation that Tasha Yem is a future name of River Song. I doubt it, but the flirting would make sense if it were River. If not River, you could say he deferred to her, but it was pretty clear that he was still doing whatever he wanted.

The Doctor appearing nude in front of Clara and the ongoing unnecessary allusion to nudity with holographic clothing.

I really didn't care if he was naked in front of Clara. Cheap laughs, I guess.

But the worst was the idea that after 300 years of the Time Lords chanting Doctor Who from the crack in the wall they finally decided to help him only after Clara begs them to help.

He didn't respond to them, that is, answer the question, so they had no way to know he was there until Clara begged them for help. For whatever reason (have to watch it again), they understood that they couldn't come back, not yet at least, so they sent the Artron energy out and it went right to him as the only Time Lord there.

 

[Gina B]

I had simply assumed that River giving her regenerations to save him was how he was able to have more than 12 regenerations.
It seems perfect reasoning to me, but everyone who I said that to says it makes no sense.
It's how it works in my mind until they explain it different! :laugh: