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New Evidence for the Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
Deadworm,

You aren't the only one who has been here in the last 18 years who has tried to tell us that the Gospels lie and are unreliable.

You won't be the last.

The Gospel accounts of the resurrection have been discussed in depth here at least for the past 16 years [that's how long I have been here]. You aren't bringing any new information. Only, and sadly, slanderous information.

Bring up any details you wish from the Gospels. I guess we can hash it out again.
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The gospels describe beating "again and again" about the head. I see no swollen features from that kind of beating and no hematomas.

Good point. Our Lord was beaten to within an inch of His life during the scourging and the imprint would have reflected the great damage done to His body.
 

Jordan Kurecki

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 KJV
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is why I think God did not tell ppl where He personally buried Moses, because ppl would flock there and worship, just as is the case of where no one truly knows where exactly Jesus' tomb is.

Ppl seem to be worshipping a shroud that is just an old rag.

#SMH
 

Deadworm

Member
Is belief in the Shroud of Turin a requirement for effective evangelism?

Yes, if the seeker expresses special interest in the topic. Effective evangelism begins with the seeker's burning questions because effective evangelism is relational evangelism. In other words, the effectiveness of evangelism often depends on loving pre-evangelism. For example, I have recently encountered a burning interest in ADCs and NDEs expressed by a grieving unchurched woman whose family lost a young loved one in a snowmobile accident. When I shared some of the research and testimonies I have and will post in my thread on this subject, this woman couldn't get enough and was eager to learn more and eager for me to share this information with her family. ADCs and NDEs do not necessarily lead directly to the Gospel, but they dramatically open the door to Gospel witness for those of us who remain alert to the right time and place for such transitional testimony. Modern secularism and its accompanying anti-supernaturalism often create apathy towards Scripture and towards the big questions of our life purpose and ultimate destiny. So topics that reengage the unchurched with these issues can easily transition to a focus on the Gospel.
 
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Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is why I think God did not tell ppl where He personally buried Moses, because ppl would flock there and worship, just as is the case of where no one truly knows where exactly Jesus' tomb is.

Ppl seem to be worshipping a shroud that is just an old rag.

#SMH
Despite overwhelming evidence that it is not. 'just an old rag' you also claim to know who and what people worship. You obviously know nothing about the shroud and suspect your anti-Catholicism is what is really going on in your post.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Despite overwhelming evidence that it is not. 'just an old rag' you also claim to know who and what people worship. You obviously know nothing about the shroud and suspect your anti-Catholicism is what is really going on in your post.

I never once brought up Catholicism. The reason why I reject that old rag is because the imprint looks just like the image of the guy Da Vinci painted as Jesus. That shroud was not the burial cloth around Him.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If Da Vinci had never used a guy to portray the Christ, that image on that shroud would be meaningless. It would be just a guy...
 

Deadworm

Member
If Da Vinci had never used a guy to portray the Christ, that image on that shroud would be meaningless. It would be just a guy...

This reply just exposes your refusal to watch the videos. In fact, one of the authenticating features of the Shroud is how Semitic its various features have proven to be.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This reply just exposes your refusal to watch the videos. In fact, one of the authenticating features of the Shroud is how Semitic its various features have proven to be.

I am not going to watch 73 minutes worth of bias-based drivel...
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This reply just exposes your refusal to watch the videos. In fact, one of the authenticating features of the Shroud is how Semitic its various features have proven to be.

What about injuries? The corpse displayed on the shroud looks pretty good to me, with not much damage that I can see. Surely Jesus would have also been beaten around the head a bit during the scourging, perhaps suffering a broken nose in the process? The nose imprinted on the shroud looks pretty straight to me. Please address this issue of not seeing any bodily injuries.
 

Deadworm

Member
I am not going to watch 73 minutes worth of bias-based drivel...

Then it would serve you right if you wanted an unchurched seeker to accept Christ and he responded: "I'm not going to waste my reading time for "78 minutes worth of drivel." But thanks for expessing the very essence of a closed-minded denizen of a myopic Baptist Ghetto. O

Adonia: "What about injuries? The corpse displayed on the shroud looks pretty good to me, with not much damage that I can see. Surely Jesus would have also been beaten around the head a bit during the scourging, perhaps suffering a broken nose in the process? The nose imprinted on the shroud looks pretty straight to me. Please address this issue of not seeing any bodily injuries. "

You too have pulled a Baptist and refused to watch the video, If you had, you would know:
(1) that much of what is of probative value is only visible through high-powered NASA equipment;
(2) that examination by secular forensic experts has demonstrated that the Shroud was wrapped around a crucified man whose blood spatter and other bodily fluid patterns fit that diagnosis perfectly.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
agedman: "There are no "seekers," that is a myth and lie of the father of lies. The Scriptures state that non seek, that all have gone their own way. "

Spoken like a badly misinformed Calvinist. In fact, most sinners who come to Christ come as a result of a spiritual journey and hence are seekers. My family and I have had the privilege of bringing some such seekers to Christ. How many sinners have you brought to Christ?

agedman: "See that is what I ask of you to do, make an accounting, but how cunning you avoid the issue."
Your malignant spirit forces you to prejudge someone new to this site whom you barely know. My future threads and posts will offer personal testimonies and insights that you can't imagine.

agedman: "...if you find some who claim to be fundamentalists that hold to what you have stated, they are liars, and no not the truth."

On the contrary, every serious Bible student eventually encounters problems requiring resolution such as the apparent inconsistencies of the Resurrection narrative. Only your biblical ignorance has protected you from such questions and the doubts they often create. But to be a true believer is to have the courage to doubt in an effort to better discern the truth and the evidence for it. Your sad closed-mindedness and insulation against the big bad world of modern scholarship has protected you from this, thus making you a ineffective witness to those who need guidance to overcome their barriers to faith.

Now, quit avoiding the 1 Peter 3:15 and give an accounting of the hope that is in you.

agedman: "Your own statements indicate that such hope of yours is based on myths and signs, and not on the personal work of the Holy Spirit in conversion and preservation."

You are pathetically judgmental towards someone to whom you have had limited exposure. You will have to give an account for your negative spirit. Have you even bothered to read my testimony in my "Babbling against Speaking in Tongues" thread? I have actively practiced street evangelism and have helped others perform this difficult form of evangelism. Have you? I was so hungry to learn all I could about biblical truth that I was enrolled in theological grad school programs for 13 years to help make me a more effect witness and apologist for the faith. Have you made a sacrifice even remotely close to such dedication.

I consider Joseph Smith and The Book of Mormon to be totally fraudulent. But I have more confidence in the salvation of some Mormons I have met than I have in yours or Yeshua's. These Mormons are humble and are truly grateful to their salvation by grace through faith in Christ's finished atoning work on the cross and they testify to God's miraculous power as demonstrated by His answers to their prayers and guidance in daily living. Upon hearing those testimonies, I used my influence to change the minds of our evangelical ministerial association into allowing Mormons full membership. Praise God!

Your posts show you grasp at sand, and have nothing to offer but smoke and mirrors, trickery, and fable of no truth.
[/QUOTE]
How many have I saved? ZERO, for is the work of the Holy Spirit of God!
 

Deadworm

Member
Adonia: "What about injuries? The corpse displayed on the shroud looks pretty good to me, with not much damage that I can see. Surely Jesus would have also been beaten around the head a bit during the scourging, perhaps suffering a broken nose in the process? The nose imprinted on the shroud looks pretty straight to me. Please address this issue of not seeing any bodily injuries. "

You too have pulled a Baptist and refused to watch the video, If you had, you would know:
(1) that much of what is of probative value is only visible through high-powered NASA equipment;
(2) that examination by secular forensic experts has demonstrated that the Shroud was wrapped around a crucified man whose blood spatter and other bodily fluid patterns fit that diagnosis perfectly. And how would a Medieval forger gain access to an authentic ancient Roman flagrum used to beat Jesus and leave an accurate pattern to be expected from such abuse?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Soooo, the scriptures are not enough for ppl to believe in a resurrection? This reeks of Judaism which always sought for a sign.
'Even if someone came back from the dead, they would still not believe Him"
Problem is sin nature, not lack of evidence!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The potential apologetic value of the Shroud of Turin can be likened to the Nazareth house that early Byzantine tradition identified as the house where Joseph and Mary lived.:

https://www.livescience.com/49997-jesus-house-possibly-found-nazareth.html

This tradition was not taken seriously until Prof. Dark's demonstration that the house was occupied precisely in the first century AD. Fragments of ancient household wares were found inside. If the early Byzantine tradition were mistaken, I doubt that the house's origin could be traced to the time Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth. This is an exciting and potentially confirmatory coincidence.

I encouraged a retired architect in my church Bible study to volunteer for a dig at Bethsaida (where some of Jesus' disciples lived) and his amateur archaeological career has proven so successful that he was featured on the science program "Nova" last year. He was invited by an Israeli archaeologist to help work on the problem of opening up a large empty space behind a wall of this first-century Nazareth house to see if anything of archaeological interest is there. Their problem is how to do this with a minimum level of damage to the house. So far, my friend has declined the offer.

A new Carbon-14 test is needed on a patch of the Shroud that has not been subjected to a Medieval reweaving with cotton. Other scientific tests date the Shroud within the range of Jesus' lifetime, but Carbon-14 dating is more accurate. If new C-14 dating can confirm a first-century origin for the Shroud, then it is likely genuine, a revered relic of the early Jerusalem church. As with the alleged Jesus house in Nazareth, a first-century date for the Shroud would in my view be too coincidental to be insignificant. A Medieval provenance would be expected for a French forgery.

No, I have not summarized all the video evidence for the Shroud's authenticity. It amuses me that rsr does not deem the quest for sacred truth worth watching a pretty long video. On his reckoning, a skeptic would be right to dismiss the claims of Christ on the grounds that it takes too long to read the New Testament or even the Gospels. As for me, I would watch or read just about anything if I thought this would open the door for effective personal evangelism. And as I have said, the Shroud, ADCs, and NDEs have proven effective evangelistic tools for me. What I actually believe is that Baptists here don't really care about what is required for effective evangelism as much as they think they do--and that is what I'll tell others about lessons I've learned from this site.

Meanwhile, here is a list of evidential aspects of Shroud research demonstrating that it should be taken seriously:
(a) a rare blood type AB that is also found of the Oviedo soudarium, Jesus' alleged burial face cloth known to have been brought from Jerusalem in the 600s.
(b) a shared blood spatter pattern consistent with crucifixion on both the Shroud and the soudarium, suggesting that both once wrapped the same crucified body
(c) abundant forensic evidence that the Shroud image was made with an actually crucified corpse
(d) proof that the style of the Shroud complies with actual strict Jewish fabric regulations and measurements that fit Jesus' era, but not the Medieval period
(e) an inability of the best scientists to explain how a Shroud forgery might have been made, except that the image was produced by some type of radiation (but not from heat). The problematic inconsistencies in Gospel resurrection narratives provide value for the tantalizing suggestion that this radiation was produced by the actual resurrection event. The very fact that skeptics are intrigued by this possibility makes it relevant to Christian witness and apologetics.
pollen on the Shroud unique to the Jerusalem area and Turkey, but not to the Europe
Are the scriptures by themselves a sound and trustworthy testimony to jesus and the resurrection? If not, NOTHING else has been given to us by God to teach others concerning jesus Christ!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why would God have the false church of rome be the guardian of such a treasure, if it were true?
 

Deadworm

Member
'Even if someone came back from the dead, they would still not believe Him"
Problem is sin nature, not lack of evidence!

But people come to faith through the evidence of ADCs and NDEs which seem to have been very rare in Jesus' day. That is why I started a thread on ADCs and NDEs because these experiences provide evidence that is more compelling to the unchurched than the biblical witness to Jesus' resurrection.
 

Deadworm

Member
Are the scriptures by themselves a sound and trustworthy testimony to jesus and the resurrection? If not, NOTHING else has been given to us by God to teach others concerning jesus Christ!

Apparently neither you nor Baptists site members think so. You all have frozen like Bambi in the headlights at the apparent inconsistencies listed my new thread on the Gospel resurrection narrative; and all I asked for was a Baptist report of a detailed sequence of events during the period of Christ's appearances. Sigh! Well not to worry! I'll wait a few days and offer my view of this sequence.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But people come to faith through the evidence of ADCs and NDEs which seem to have been very rare in Jesus' day. That is why I started a thread on ADCs and NDEs because these experiences provide evidence that is more compelling to the unchurched than the biblical witness to Jesus' resurrection.
Do you think the Holy Spirit needs anyhting other than the scriptures to use to save lost sinners?
 
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