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New survey: Only one-third of Catholics believe in Real Presence

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M

MarysSon

Active Member
davidtaylorjr said:
No, only people reading into things rationalize it is anything other than symbolism. Only false teachers from a false church do such things.
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Uhhhhhhh, that's why the Early Church was UNANIMOUS in its belief in the Real Presence and the Eucharist - and willingly went to a martyr's death for it . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).

Aphraahat
With His own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

Ambrose of Milan
Perhaps you may be saying, "I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?" It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).

Augustine
What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).(ibid. 272).
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
Uhhhhhhh, that's why the Early Church was UNANIMOUS in its belief in the Real Presence and the Eucharist - and willingly went to a martyr's death for it . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).

Aphraahat
With His own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

Ambrose of Milan
Perhaps you may be saying, "I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?" It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).

Augustine
What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).(ibid. 272).
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Muslims die for their false teaching too.
 
utilyan

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
davidtaylorjr said:
John 6 is symbolism. Manna saved the Hebrew in the wilderness. So does the flesh of the savior being crucified and raised again save humanity. He is not literally saying "eat my flesh" we are not cannibals.
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No one hearing it was symbolic would have left. Even in previous chapters he layed out symbolic stuff no one leaves.

The opposition sounds just like you did:
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”


This is where most disciples leave Jesus. And you think its over mere symbolic issue that broke the camel's back?

Even in your own churches when have you ever heard anyone say......symbolic....whoa thats where I draw the line!.

No one has any problem with Jesus being symbolic he has done it before.

Just a chapter before: 31Meanwhile the disciples were urging Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33So the disciples were saying to one another, “No one brought Him anything to eat, did he?” 34Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.

No disciple threw a fit. Jesus explains his symbolism.


But in John 6, oh no......

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

For my flesh is TRUE FOOD and MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK.


"He is not literally saying "eat my flesh" we are not cannibals."

Literally saying, in fact the charge of christian being cannibals was common.


ST JUSTIN MARTYR

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."

"Dialogue with Trypho", Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.' It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]




Justin points out the God given prophesy:

11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.

Where is your incense, grain offering and altar? We got you covered, we do this all day long everyday. There is Eucharist being celebrated somewhere all the time.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
utilyan said:
No one hearing it was symbolic would have left. Even in previous chapters he layed out symbolic stuff no one leaves.

The opposition sounds just like you did:
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”


This is where most disciples leave Jesus. And you think its over mere symbolic issue that broke the camel's back?

Even in your own churches when have you ever heard anyone say......symbolic....whoa thats where I draw the line!.

No one has any problem with Jesus being symbolic he has done it before.

Just a chapter before: 31Meanwhile the disciples were urging Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33So the disciples were saying to one another, “No one brought Him anything to eat, did he?” 34Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.

No disciple threw a fit. Jesus explains his symbolism.


But in John 6, oh no......

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

For my flesh is TRUE FOOD and MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK.


"He is not literally saying "eat my flesh" we are not cannibals."

Literally saying, in fact the charge of christian being cannibals was common.


ST JUSTIN MARTYR

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."

"Dialogue with Trypho", Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.' It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]




Justin points out the God given prophesy:

11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.

Where is your incense, grain offering and altar? We got you covered, we do this all day long everyday. There is Eucharist being celebrated somewhere all the time.
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You can quit quoting the Fathers. I couldn't care less what they say on the issue. Verse 35 in John 6 already explains this is not a literal eating of flesh or drinking of blood. People were not leaving him because he was saying they had to eat flesh and blood. They were leaving because the supposed Christ was going to die and that did not align with their view of the Messiah. He makes very clear he is not talking about eating his literal flesh and blood.
 
utilyan

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
davidtaylorjr said:
You can quit quoting the Fathers. I couldn't care less what they say on the issue. Verse 35 in John 6 already explains this is not a literal eating of flesh or drinking of blood. People were not leaving him because he was saying they had to eat flesh and blood. They were leaving because the supposed Christ was going to die and that did not align with their view of the Messiah. He makes very clear he is not talking about eating his literal flesh and blood.
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"They were leaving because the supposed Christ was going to die and that did not align with their view of the Messiah."

What verse even comes close to hinting at that? Where are the disciples given any clue that he was going to die?

No one grumbled about any messiah dying. Quote the bible verse. Not gnostic trash.
 
A

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath [Acts 15:19-21].

If the communion/eucharist wine actually becomes blood, then we are forbidden from drinking it.
 
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