NIV 2011 Revision…Thoughts?

[Martin Marprelate]

And the idea we should not strive to correctly understand scripture because that means we are mucking about with God's word is ludicrous.

And "Amen!" said a million Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Van]

And "Amen!" said a million Jehovah's Witnesses.

Yes, the JW's agree with you Martin, no need to let the light of truth shine on ones favorite translation.

 

[Van]

Even so, CSB, CEB and NASB agree with the NIV here.

Yes, about a dozen translations add to scripture and indicate women helped choose the deacons in their rendering of Acts 6:3. The rest, about 50, left those who chose ambiguous, using friends, brothers or brethren.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

I am continuing to respond to Van Spam. I will not be going in sequential order because I covered a lot of his repetitions earlier.

41) Ephesians 2:3. VPT is "children of wrath." Most translations have that wording. But not so fast. The ISV has "destined for wrath." The NLT has "subject to God's anger." The NET note relates that "Children of wrath" is a Semitic idiom which may mean either 'people characterized by wrath' or 'people destined for wrath.' I opt for the latter.
So I rate this as a tie.
42) Col. 1:28. VPT wants a word form three times in this verse.
CSB has 'everyone' twice.
CEB has 'every person' and 'each one.'
ISV has 'everyone' twice.
NET has 'all people' and 'every person'
NLT has 'everyone' twice.
I rate this as a tie.
44) 2 Thess. 2:13. VPT is "for salvation." The ESV opts for 'to be saved.' Most have VPT. So Van gets this one.
45)2 Thess. 3:6. VPT has "who leads an undisciplined life."
CSB "who is idle."
ESV "walking in idleness"
ISV and NRSV "living in idleness"
NLT "who live idle lives"
The NET note says in part "the particular violation Paul has in mind is idleness (as described in vv. 8-11)
Van gets no credit here.
46) 1 Tim. 3:16. VPT "revealed in the flesh. The CEB has "revealed as a human." The NLT has "revealed in a human body." The NIV and Weymouth (I know, not on the approved list of translations) have "appeared in the flesh."
So even though the words 'revealed' and 'appeared' have similar meanings, I will give this one to Van because most translations have his particular word.

Van gets 40% in this round.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

# 47 Titus 2:11. VPT "who provides salvation." The NIV has "offers salvation." It stands alone with that wording. But VPT also stands alone. No other translation of the 12 has that rendering. Most translations have "who brings salvation.
So no points for either side for this one.
48) Titus 3:4. VPT "love for mankind." The CSB, ISV, LEB, NASB, NET and WEB have VPT.
But the NRSV, Mounce ,NLT CEB don't have his wording.
Tie.
49) Philemon 6. VPT is a knockoff of the NIV rendering. There are just three differences between VPT and the NIV rendering. The NIV has 'partnership' --so does the CEB and ISV. The NIV has 'good thing.' So does LEB, ESV, CSB, MOUNCE, WEB, NASB (NLT has 'good things.')
VPT has 'Christ Jesus' at the end of the first. However, the NIV and almost all versions (not just the 12) have 'Christ.'
Van gets no credit here.
51) Hebrews 10:14. VPT has 'offering.' Most translations have the word 'offering.' However, the NIV (and Goodspeed) have 'sacrifice.' I defy anyone to explain the word 'offering' in this verse without using the word 'sacrifice.' It is impossible.
But Van gets this one by virtue of sheer numbers.
52) Heb. 10:28. VPT has 'without compassion.' Only one translation agrees with VPT and that is WEB. Nine translations have the NIV wording of "without mercy."
Van gets no credit here.
53) Hebrews 12:17. VPT is "he could not find the occasion for repentance." Even though the wording is somewhat different six translations are in Van's ballpark.
Van gets credit for this one.
54) James 2:5. VPT is "yet rich in faith." No translation has that wording.
Van doesn't get any credit here.
57) 1 Peter 2:3. VPT is 'kindness of the Lord.' The NASB and the NET (sort of) agree with VPT. But the overwhelming number of translations have the NIV wording "tasted that the Lord is good."
Van doesn't get any credit here.
58) 1 Peter 4:6. VPT is "those who are dead." The NIV has "those who are now dead."
This one is a tie.
60) 1 Jn. 2:2. VPT is 'propitiation.' The LEB, Mounce and NASB agree with VPT. The NIV has 'atoning sacrifice." The CSB, NET, NRSV, WEB, ISV and NET agree with the NIV. The NLT has 'the sacrifice that atones for our sins.'
The nod goes the NIV.
61) 1 Jn. 4:10. The VPT is 'propitiation.' The ESV, LEB and Mounce agree.
But the CSB, ISV, NET, NRSV and WEB agree with the NIV.
Tie.
62) Jude 1:1, The VPT is in none of the translations.
Van doesn't get any credit for this one.

To sum up, Van got two out of eleven correct, which is 18.18%. The ties neutralized both sides.

 

[Van]

LOL, if one translation reflects the inspired text, and another mistranslates it, then it is not a tie. The inability to engage in a rational discussion of flawed translation choices is our problem. All these phony comparisons are ludicrous. Either you translate word and phrase meanings consistent with the historical/grammatical template or you veer into a rewrite of the text.

 

[Van]

Consolidated Potential Improvements in the NIV's Translation of the New Testament [Part 1 or 2]

1) Matthew 3:11 should read, ""As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize some of you with the Holy Spirit and others with fire.

2) Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28 "hell" should be translated as "Gehenna."

3) Matthew 11:12 should read, ""Since the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of the heavens has been forcefully sought, and forceful people are laying hold of it."

4) Matthew 11:30 should read "My yoke is beneficial."

5) Matthew 18:19, 23:15, 23:33 "hell" should be translated as "Gehenna."

6) Matthew 25:34 “since the creation” should read "since humanity's downcast."

7) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read, "moved with anger."

8) Mark 9:43, 9:45, 9:47 "hell" should be translated as "Gehenna."

9) Luke 6:4 should read "lawful for Priests alone."

10) Luke 6:36 be merciful, just as your Father is merciful should read be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate

11) Luke 9:18 "praying in private" should read "praying alone"

12) Luke 10:40 "doing the work by myself" should read "doing the work alone."

13) Luke 11:50 should read "since humanity's downcast."

14) Luke 12:5, hell should read Gehenna

15) Luke 15:7 reads do not need to repent (turning the noun into a verb) rather than who needs no repentance.

16) Luke 18:13, "be merciful" should read "be propitious"

17) John 1:16 should read, "...grace after grace."

18) John 6:29 should read "the work God requires of you."

19) John 21:5 friends should read, "children."

20) Acts of the Apostles 2:4, tongues should read foreign languages.

21) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord and as many as accepted direction to eternal life believed.

22) Acts of the Apostles 13:50 "leaders" should be italicized to indicate an addition to the text.

23) Acts of the Apostles 28:2, unusual kindness should be "love for humankind."

24) Romans 1:6 - rather than "called to belong to" should read "positionally sanctified in."

25) Romans 1:7 called to be his holy people should read "positionally sanctified as saints."

26) Romans 3:22 “through faith in Jesus” should read “through the faithfulness of Jesus”

27) Romans 3:25 sacrifice of atonement should read, "propitiatory shelter."

28) Romans 8:15, "brought your adoption to sonship should read "brought God's pledge to your promised benefits as children of God.

29) Romans 8:28 called according to his purpose should read "positionally sanctified according to His purpose."

30) Romans 12:1, "...in view of God's mercies should read "in view of God's compassions..

31) Romans 12:10, "love" should be translated "sibling love"

32) 1 Corinthians 1:2 "to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people," should read "to those positionally sanctified in Christ Jesus and set apart as His holy people.

33) 1 Corinthians 1:24 "to those who are the called" should read "to those positionally sanctified"

34) 1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say all things that come from the Spirit, therefore the verse should read: The person without the Spirit does not accept some of the things of the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit,

35) 1 Corinthians 3:1: Siblings I could not speak to you as people with the Spirit, but as to people without the Spirit, as babes in Christ who have yet to learn from the Spirit.

36) 1 Corinthians 6:19 "your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you" should read "your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in all of you.

37) 1 Corinthians 14:29 should read "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others evaluate." The NIV added "carefully" and "what is said."

38) 1 Corinthians 15:33 should read "beneficial character."

39) 1 Corinthians 16:13 "be courageous" should read, "act like men."

 

[Van]

Improvements fro Consideration continued: [Part 2 or 2]

40) Galatians 2:16 should read, ""knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the Law, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, we have put our faith in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by the works of the Law, because by the works of the Law no one will be justified."

41) Ephesians 2:3 “deserving of wrath” should read, "children of wrath."

42) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.

43) 1 Thessalonians 4:9, love for one another should read "sibling love."

44) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 to be saved should read, "for salvation."

45) 2 Thessalonians 3:6 who is idle should read, "who leads an undisciplined life"

46) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read, "revealed in the flesh."

47) Titus 2:11 "Offer" has been added which alters the message, the verse should read: For the grace of God, who provides salvation, has appeared to all people.

48) Titus 3:4 ”love” should read, "love for mankind."

49) Philemon 1:6 the verse should read as follows: "I pray that your participation in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every blessing that belongs to all of you in Christ Jesus."

50) Hebrews 4:3 “since the creation should read “since humanity's downcast."

51) Hebrews 10:14 “sacrifice” should read, "offering."

52) Hebrews 10:28, "without mercy should read "without compassion"

53) Hebrews 12:17 "he could not change what he had done" should read "he could not find the occasion for repentance."

54) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read, "yet rich in faith."

55) James 3:6, "hell" should be translated as "Gehenna."

56) James 5:11, "... The Lord is full of compassion and mercy" should read "The Lord is tenderhearted and full of compassion"

57) 1 Peter 2:3 should read "kindness of the Lord."

58) 1 Peter 4:6 those who are now dead should read, "those who are dead."

59) 2 Peter 2:4, "hell" should be translated "Tartarus."

60) 1 John 2:2 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation."

61) 1 John 4:10 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation."

62) Jude 1:1 "To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ" should read "To those who have been "positionally sanctified," who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ.

63) Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 "from the creation" should read, "since humanity's downcast."

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Van, first,, you shouldn't use words you don't know the meaning of. 'Downcast' means sad and discouraged. Secondly, 'since humanity's downcast' is quite ungrammatical. Thirdly, no translation of Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 has your abysmal wording.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

if one translation reflects the inspired text, and another mistranslates it, then it is not a tie. The inability to engage in a rational discussion of flawed translation choices is our problem.

Van, may I repeat a fact that has been said many times by many posters. You are not a translator. And neither am I. I simply took twelve translations from Bible Gateway and compared them with VPT and the NIV which has affinities with some of the twelve a lot of the time. Some of your 'translations' are way off-balance. Meaning that no translation comes anywhere close in proximity to your creative mind.

You mentioned the ones I consider ties.
# 42 had five versions that agreed with the NIV. The rest went with your wording.
# 48 six versions went your way and four went mine.
# 58 three went your way and three went the NIV way.
# 61 three went your way and five went my way.

I tried to be fair.

Aside from the tie issue, many times your inventive wording certainly did not reflect any ancient text. Your renderings were fabricated out of thin air.

 

[Van]

Van, may I repeat a fact that has been said many times by many posters. You are not a translator. And neither am I. I simply took twelve translations from Bible Gateway and compared them with VPT and the NIV which has affinities with some of the twelve a lot of the time. Some of your 'translations' are way off-balance. Meaning that no translation comes anywhere close in proximity to your creative mind.

You mentioned the ones I consider ties.
# 42 had five versions that agreed with the NIV. The rest went with your wording.
# 48 six versions went your way and four went mine.
# 58 three went your way and three went the NIV way.
# 61 three went your way and five went my way.

I tried to be fair.

Aside from the tie issue, many times your inventive wording certainly did not reflect any ancient text. Your renderings were fabricated out of thin air.

You cannot even do a word study, you simply copy and post absurd comparisons. Most of my NIV problem verses are translated differently by several well established translations.

And you still cannot grasp that #42, 48, 58, and 61 represent mistranslations which need correction. "Tie" Good Golly Miss Molly"

Take #48, where for doctrinal reasons, the NIV edited the inspired text and did not translate part of a word which showed the scope of God's love, beyond that claimed by Calvinism. This is a major translation flaw, not a tie.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Most of my NIV problem verses are translated differently by several well established translations.

And you still cannot grasp that #42, 48, 58, and 61 represent mistranslations which need correction. "Tie" Good Golly Miss Molly"

Little Richard, your attempts at rationalization are in vain. On the occasions in which about half of the translations side with you and the other half side with the NIV, it rightly should be deemed as a tie.

But you are right on one score. Most of your disagreements with the NIV translation are translated differently from your 'unique' renderings.

 

[Van]

Van, first,, you shouldn't use words you don't know the meaning of. 'Downcast' means sad and discouraged. Secondly, 'since humanity's downcast' is quite ungrammatical. Thirdly, no translation of Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 has your abysmal wording.

There is an old saying that even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Yes, the modern meaning of "downcast" is not what our Greek word means. My bad. "Since humanity's cast down" removes the ambiguity.

63) Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 "from the creation" should read, "since humanity's cast down (Fall)."

 

[Van]

Consider the premise of selecting a subset of translations that lean your way, and then using them to claim you are presenting an objective (fair) analysis. Sheer twaddle. Let me pick a group of translations, quite similar to those "objectively chosen" by RR.
Here they are: CEB,, ISV, LEB, Mounce, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, WEB and YLT.
For item 42, seven agree with Greek text, (and my view) and two omit at least one "every person" corrupting the text.
For item 48, six agree with the Greek text (and my view) and three omit part of the meaning to hide God's love of humanity.
For item 58, seven agree with the Greek text (and my view) and two add a word to alter the message.
For item 61, five agree with the Greek text (and my view) and four mistranslate the Greek.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

There is an old saying that even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Yes, the modern meaning of "downcast" is not what our Greek word means. My bad. "Since humanity's cast down" removes the ambiguity.

63) Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 "from the creation" should read, "since humanity's cast down (Fall)."

Your reworked wording still makes no grammatical sense. More importantly it makes no scriptural sense. Why don't you fill in more context, because it bears no relation to anything in the verse. Please supply an extended 'translation' of both verses in full. I know 17:8 may be a chore for you, but at least provide a sentence. Rev. 13:8 is shorter. Supply a VPT for that entire verse, because as it is you're not making any sense.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Consider the premise of selecting a subset of translations that lean your way, and then using them to claim you are presenting an objective (fair) analysis. Sheer twaddle. Let me pick a group of translations, quite similar to those "objectively chosen" by RR.
Here they are: CEB,, ISV, LEB, Mounce, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, WEB and YLT.
For item 42, seven agree with Greek text, (and my view) and two omit at least one "every person" corrupting the text.
For item 48, six agree with the Greek text (and my view) and three omit part of the meaning to hide God's love of humanity.
For item 58, seven agree with the Greek text (and my view) and two add a word to alter the message.
For item 61, five agree with the Greek text (and my view) and four mistranslate the Greek.

I had chosen twelve translations, a number of which you had spoken highly of in past posts. There was quite a lot of diversity in my selection. In your new lineup, all but the CEB are fairly similar. My selections were reasonable and diverse, yours are not.
So I will go with a new lineup myself : CSB, EHV, ESV, NET and NLT.

42) 4 in my favor and 1 in yours.
48) 3 in your favor and 2 in mine.
58) 3 in my favor and 2 in yours
61) 4 in my favor and in yours.

When your use words like "corrupting the text" "altering the message" and "mistranslate the Greek" you expose yourself as a fraud.

 

[Van]

I had chosen twelve translations, a number of which you had spoken highly of in past posts. There was quite a lot of diversity in my selection. In your new lineup, all but the CEB are fairly similar. My selections were reasonable and diverse, yours are not.
So I will go with a new lineup myself : CSB, EHV, ESV, NET and NLT.

42) 4 in my favor and 1 in yours.
48) 3 in your favor and 2 in mine.
58) 3 in my favor and 2 in yours
61) 4 in my favor and in yours.

When your use words like "corrupting the text" "altering the message" and "mistranslate the Greek" you expose yourself as a fraud.

He does not even realize he has just proven my point, all his posts are self serving twaddle...

 

[Van]

Your reworked wording still makes no grammatical sense. More importantly it makes no scriptural sense. Why don't you fill in more context, because it bears no relation to anything in the verse. Please supply an extended 'translation' of both verses in full. I know 17:8 may be a chore for you, but at least provide a sentence. Rev. 13:8 is shorter. Supply a VPT for that entire verse, because as it is you're not making any sense.

RR likes to claim something is wrong with the grammar of other peoples posts. Mindless twaddle.
He says Humanity's cast down makes no sense. Fine, use a footnote to explain the Fall.

"humanity's fall [fn]"
footnote = Greek humanity's cast down

 

[Van]

The question we should ask ourselves is why so many translations mistranslate so many verses. The answer is probably a lack of an effective feedback mechanism where problem issues are corrected rather than suppressed.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

RR likes to claim something is wrong with the grammar of other peoples posts. Mindless twaddle.
He says Humanity's cast down makes no sense. Fine, use a footnote to explain the Fall.

"humanity's fall [fn]"
footnote = Greek humanity's cast down

Correct grammar would be "other people's posts." But even that is awkward. Try : "The posts of others."

Is it such a chore for you to supply your translations of Rev. 13:8 and 17:8? "Humanity's cast down" is so odd. Are you speaking of The Fall? If so, there is no mention of The Fall in those two verses. Flesh the passages out. You are not just being vague, but entirely absurd.