NIV Calls Lucifer, "Jesus" (Article)

[robycop3]

Michelle:Isn't one of the reasons for the mv's is for easier reading and better understanding of the word of God in language closer to our day? If this is so, how then can you say that this makes it easier for the reader, and better to understand? How can you say this wouldn't and doesn't cause confusion? Since when has God referred to a wicked person with a title that he has given to himself? Scripture references please?


Marginal note from the AV 1611 for Isaiah 14:12:

or O DAY STARRE

 

[robycop3]

Michelle:It's not my fault you ignore the answers given. That is your own fault, so please stop accusing me of not answering your questions.

Your "answers" have been spin & evasion.


You have yet to show me with scripture, where God would condone you to use a translation of his word that has "added" to his words. Where is your scriptural support? Where is your scriptural support that God would allow his people for generations to believe things that were "added" to his words?

I've posted the answer many times: the comparison between Luke 4: 16-21 and Isaiah 42:7, 61:1-3. Also, we've referred to a comparison between Isaiah 53 & Acts 8.

And you STILL won't touch this one:"You claim you're not KJVO. If that's so, what other version(s) would you recommend?"

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by skanwmatos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Now Charles says Isaiah is talking about a man. So which is it ? Is the King of Babylon now likened to the planet Venus in its brightness ?Is it the planet Venus that fell or is it the king of Babylon ?

Is the king of Babylon a type of Satan, the adversary of God's people, or is he not ? Is Babylon a type of the world, or is it not ?

What part of "figure of speech" don't you understand? Do you think Jesus, because He said "I am the door" that he is a literal door? Solid core? With deadbolt lock? And a little peek hole to look through? Is this the famous KJVO double standard at work? </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, folks. Bear with me. You are right, of course. Lucifer is a metaphor for Nebuchadnezzar or the king of Babylon. I was just having fun by playing the fool. It's just that we get so passionate about some things at times.

And again, Skan, I am, by Dr. Bob's definition, KJVO category 1.

 

[michelle]

Pinoybaptist,

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Okay, folks. Bear with me. You are right, of course. Lucifer is a metaphor for Nebuchadnezzar or the king of Babylon. I was just having fun by playing the fool. It's just that we get so passionate about some things at times.

And again, Skan, I am, by Dr. Bob's definition, KJVO category 1.
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You don't need to cater to the labels that someone has saw fit to place on you.
They are only labels that man has made up in order to vilify those who stand for God's word of truth, and try to warn others of the alterations that have been done to God's words that call themselves Bibles . This is just one way they try to take away, or divert others from seeing the truth, and as a result many false accusations, and misunderstandings result

. Take for example the above post from robycop to me. These people refuse to listen to reason because all they do is argue the label, rather than loving the truth.

So don't ever be ashamed or afraid to speak out about the truth

. Be joyful and praise the Lord always, that he has given us his perfectly preserved words in our language, that we may be confident that we can not only hold it in our very hands, but live it, believe it, preach it, and share it. Thank you for your love of God's words and trying to reach others with this truth

.

By the way, Lucifer is much more than a metaphor for the king of Bablyon. Lucifer is referring to Satan. It is Satan who falls from heaven, not venus, not the king of babylon, but Satan. The King of Babylon was a prototype of Satan and his antichrist to come. Don't be ashamed of the truth in this passage, and let other people bully you into bowing down from the truth.

May the Lord continue to bless you in all you do in service to him.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[HankD]

Very effective hit-and-run brothersmiller.

Nine pages and counting of divisive posts.

HankD

[ May 20, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[michelle]

The truth is divisive against those things that are not the truth. Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace, but rather division.

You know what has really caused the division on these boards? Those who refuse to see the plain truth, and the truth that has been long taught, believed and preached for hundreds of years. Just as God divided the lightness from the darkness in the beginning, it still has not changed. The truth will divide, but the truth will also set you free.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[HankD]

The truth is divisive against those things that are not the truth.

Amen.

"love one another".

HankD

 

[michelle]

Loving someone is telling them the truth, regardless of the divisiveness that may come from it.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[HankD]

Loving someone is telling them the truth, regardless of the divisiveness that may come from it.

Not always.

John 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

HankD

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by michelle:
The truth is divisive against those things that are not the truth. Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace, but rather division.

You know what has really caused the division on these boards? Those who refuse to see the plain truth, and the truth that has been long taught, believed and preached for hundreds of years. Just as God divided the lightness from the darkness in the beginning, it still has not changed. The truth will divide, but the truth will also set you free.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

You're right, Michelle. So, will you open your eyes and begin to see the Truth? It'll set you free!

 

[michelle]

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I SAY KJVO IS A FALSE, MAN-MADE DOCTRINE! I say the modern KJVO myth began in 1930 with the publication of Our Authorized Bible Vindicated by 7TH DAY ADVENTIST OFFICIAL Benjamin Wilkinson. I say KJVO is as wrong now as it was then. I say KJVO has NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT.
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You obviously have no knowledge of the history of the Bible version debate. It has been going on for alot longer than you think. Study to show thyself approved. Stop focusing on the label, and you might learn something and be blessed.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Charles Meadows]

I was meaning to post some more last night but my computer went down!

Considering the blasphemy thing. Jesus is called a LION in Revelation 5:5 (Lion of the tribe of Judah). Also in 1 Pet 5:8 satan is called a roaring LION. Is Peter or John guilty of blasphemy for using a "Jesus term" to describe satan? No!

And neither is the NIV blaspheming for using the same words. About the morning star - as it's been stated this was a title of majesty. The planet Venus could be seen brightly in the sky - and this was thought to represent a demigods of sorts. The name Ellitu (Ugaritic from Ras Shamra) means bright one and may be related to the heylel in Is 14:12 - which by the way we do NOT 100% know what heylel is - whether it's from yalal (howl - heylel looks alot like the hiphil form of yalal) or halal (shine).

The term morning star implies prominence and power. The DOES apply to Jesus. And isn't satan a pretender to this title? As such, if we see a type of satan in Is 14:12, then the term morning star here is mocking him!

 

[michelle]

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You're right, Michelle. So, will you open your eyes and begin to see the Truth? It'll set you free!
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My eyes have been open and I am in the truth, and it has set me free. You are the one that needs to open your eyes and see the truth, so that it will set you free. You blind yourself to the truth by focusing on a label, rather than the truth of this issue. Many here make excuses for those things they should be standing against, all because they have no love for God's pure words. Compromise is the order of the day. What flavour of the month do you choose? The one that weakens the blood of our Lord Jesus? The one that weakens the deity of our Lord Jesus? The one that blasphemies our Lord Jesus? Which one do you choose? Oh, I forgot, they are all God's perfectly preserved words, even though they don't even agree one with the other. You make God to be the author of confusion, by your condoning of those things that have caused it.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Considering the blasphemy thing. Jesus is called a LION in Revelation 5:5 (Lion of the tribe of Judah). Also in 1 Pet 5:8 satan is called a roaring LION. Is Peter or John guilty of blasphemy for using a "Jesus term" to describe satan? No!

And neither is the NIV blaspheming for using the same words. About the morning star - as it's been stated this was a title of majesty. The planet Venus could be seen brightly in the sky - and this was thought to represent a demigods of sorts. The name Ellitu (Ugaritic from Ras Shamra) means bright one and may be related to the heylel in Is 14:12 - which by the way we do NOT 100% know what heylel is - whether it's from yalal (howl - heylel looks alot like the hiphil form of yalal) or halal (shine).

The term morning star implies prominence and power. The DOES apply to Jesus. And isn't satan a pretender to this title? As such, if we see a type of satan in Is 14:12, then the term morning star here is mocking him!
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Again, the Lion from the tribe of Judah, is not the same thing as a lion that roars. Satan is not referred to as the Lion from the tribe of Judah. Nor is Jesus referred to as just a Lion or a roaring lion seeking to who he may devour. The terms are descriptive. There is not descriptive distinction given in the NIV's use of morning star in Isaiah 14 to that in Revelation. And also, more importantly, the Hebrew word "Helel" does not indicate the word "star". Morning star was rendered elsewhere in the Hebrew, as the Hebrew word indicated such, but this particular word in this passage is UNIQUE Hebrew word in all the Old Testament Hebrew.

Instead of focusing on what you yourself understand regarding this passage, think about all those people who do not have knowledge of the scriptures, and who only read this version. Please do not tell me this would not be cause for confusion. Think of others, and the dangers this might cause for others concerning this error.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ransom]

In order to claim that the NIV "confuses Jesus and Satan" because its rendering uses the words "morning star," the KJV-onlyists in this thread have presupposed something very important. That is, they have simply assumed that a symbol must stand for the very same object or person or idea every time it is used.

Why should I accept that?

If the KJV-onlyists can't show us why that is so, then there is no reason why we should accept their slander against the Word of God as presented in the NIV.

I'm calling you out. If you can't defend your assumption, then you have turned 9 pages of KJV-only rhetoric into a non-issue.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Askjo:
Lucifer is a name for an angel of light, who turned out to be Satan.

Except that, in the original Hebrew, that's not the context at all.

This debate is ridiculous. The NIV translation is the most accurate translation to the original Hebrew. The KJV takes the word lucifer from the latin vulgate. KJVO's have taken the capitalized form of the word to infer that the KJV is referring to a proper name. That is a blatant addition to scripture, and is plainly heretical.

It is a FACT and the TRUTH that Isaish is NOT referring to Satan. To believe that is believe a lie.

 

[skanwmatos]

Originally posted by Johnv:
KJVO's have taken the capitalized form of the word to infer that the KJV is referring to a proper name. That is a blatant addition to scripture, and is plainly heretical.

Actually it is a proper name in Hebrew (masculine, singular, absolute). But it is the proper name of a planet, Venus, and not a person, Satan. Even the proper names of planets require initial capitalization (although you couldn't tell that from reading many of the posts from the KJVOs - they seem remarkably ignorant of proper English grammar).

 

[michelle]

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Except that, in the original Hebrew, that's not the context at all.

This debate is ridiculous. The NIV translation is the most accurate translation to the original Hebrew. The KJV takes the word lucifer from the latin vulgate. KJVO's have taken the capitalized form of the word to infer that the KJV is referring to a proper name. That is a blatant addition to scripture, and is plainly heretical.

It is a FACT and the TRUTH that Isaish is NOT referring to Satan. To believe that is believe a lie.
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If anyone is guilty of speaking a lie on this, it is you, and those that say the same as you. The Hebrew word Helel means bright one. No mention of the word star anyhwere to be gained. Lucifer means Light bearer. No star involved in that word either. The NIV has not rendered the word accurately and has blasphemied our precious Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It is also a fact, and the truth, that this passage in Isaiah IS REFERRING TO SATAN.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ransom]

Lucifer means Light bearer. No star involved in that word either.

No mention of an angel, either, but don't let that stop you from making unwarranted assertions.

(Apparently they didn't teach about metaphor, simile, and symbolism when you went to English class, did they?)

Incidentally, language lessons from someone who can't spell "blasphemed" correctly are probably suspect from the start.

 

[michelle]

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Lucifer means Light bearer. No star involved in that word either.

No mention of an angel, either, but don't let that stop you from making unwarranted assertions.

(Apparently they didn't teach about metaphor, simile, and symbolism when you went to English class, did they?)

Incidentally, language lessons from someone who can't spell "blasphemed" correctly are probably suspect from the start.
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This is typical from the mv crowd when faced with the clear and obvious truth, to then diffuse this truth with bringing attention to unimportant and irrelevant matters such as spelling errors.

If you only revered God's holy words of truth in the same manner - to which God has the power and ability to provide us a perfect translation in our own language, and to which he has.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle