No condemnation in Christ Jesus !

[savedbymercy]

Rom 8:1

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is absolutely no way one can be condemned by God, who is in Christ Jesus, and who walks not after the flesh [unregenerated] but after the Spirit [regenerated].

The first part of this verse needs some clarification, before we can rightly understand the second part " who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

When exactly is the believer ever in Christ Jesus ? How did they get into Christ Jesus in the first place ?

To answer the first question, the believer, before they believed or before they were physically born into this world, were in Christ Jesus before the World began. 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

So the believer, before the world began was in Christ Jesus representatively in the Covenant of Grace, before the world began. Thats why it is stated that Grace was given them in Christ Jesus at that early date, how else can we understand " Grace which was given us" It was given to their Head and Representative of the Seed, His Seed Chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Chosen seed ! Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The Chosen generation which means seed or the Chosen seed 1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Now secondly, How did they get into Christ Jesus in the first place ? By God the Fathers good pleasure 1 Cor 1:29-30

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

That no flesh can boast of themselves being the cause of their being in Christ, Paul says it's of God [Father] that ye are in Christ Jesus, and He was made all those things unto them as He was made their Covenant Head and Surety, He is made unto them wisdom, and righteousness,and sanctification and redemption [of the body in the future].

So to these, even before they believed were in Christ, and therefore they were never under Condemnation, even as being born sinners and dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[savedbymercy]

Who walk according to the Spirit !

Now after the statement:There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus:

Its followed by this:

who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Now what does this mean ? It means simply, the ones who are no longer in darkness, but now walk in God's Marvelous light 1 Pet 2:9. It means those who have had the Gospel revealed to them and in them by the Spirit 1 Cor 2:10

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Now they walk by Faith and not by sight. And so the word NOW does not mean that they were once condemned and now they are not, but that now, one knows it to be True. When and before the elect sinner is brought to Faith in Christ, they know nothing of their eternal union with Christ, they knew nothing of their legal Justification before God because of Christ Righteousness having been laid to their Charge. Sure they have been passed from darkness to light, and from death unto life, both of which are subjective experiences of the New Birth of the Holy Spirit, but their legal standing upon the merits of Christ has never changed. So upon this never changing legal standing, that there was no Condemnation in Christ, and so thats how it is Now ! God could never lay them under condemnation simply because He decided before the world began to lay their legal condemnation on Christ their Legal Head and Surety, and that decision freed them personally from that legal condemnation of their sins. This good news is revealed to each of them in the Gospel in God's time. Rom 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And this begins their life of Faith, their walk according to the Spirit !

 

[Doubting Thomas]

For those who are IN CHRIST, you are correct--there is no condemnation. Those not in Christ, however, stand condemned as they are still in their sins. In Him we have redemption and the forgiveness (Eph 1:7) of sins and the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21); apart from Him and outside of Him we have none of these. Before one is in Christ, he is by nature a 'child of wrath' (Eph 2:3).

 

[Matt Black]

Ah, and what does being 'in Christ' entail?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Ah, and what does being 'in Christ' entail?

Ah...that's good question, Matt--was your question hypothetical? (I bet you know the answer. :smilewinkgrin: )

For instance, do you suppose it means one's status by mere virtue of already being a member of the (allegedly unconditional) elect from eternity? Or does it involve actually being united to Christ by grace through faith?

 

[Matt Black]

The latter.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

The latter.

Yep, I would concur.

 

[savedbymercy]

dt

Those not in Christ, however, stand condemned as they are still in their sins.

Of course, thats everyone not Chosen in Christ before the foundation !

Before one is in Christ, he is by nature a 'child of wrath' (Eph 2:3).

Thats True of them by Nature, but they were Chosen in Christ before they became Children of wrath by Nature. And even then, those Chosen in Christ are not condemned for being a Child of wrath. The Elect never had their sins imputed to their Charge. 2 Cor 5:19 and Rom 4:7-8

So legal condemnation was never their lot, because Christ was made their Surety before the world began and their condemnation was charged to Him instead of to them.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

dt

Thats True of them by Nature, but they were Chosen in Christ before they became Children of wrath by Nature. And even then, those Chosen in Christ are not condemned for being a Child of wrath. The Elect never had their sins imputed to their Charge. 2 Cor 5:19 and Rom 4:7-8

So legal condemnation was never their lot, because Christ was made their Surety before the world began and their condemnation was charged to Him instead of to them.

That's false--only those in Christ are not under His wrath, and that is only through faith. Those who believe not are condemned already--there is no exception for the allegedly unconditionally elect yet non-believer (John 3:18). God's wrath abides on the non-believer (John 3:36).

 

[savedbymercy]

dt

That's false--only those in Christ are not under His wrath,

Well, the elect are always in Christ in the religious beliefs I hold, i don't know about your religion.

and that is only through faith.

Thats not according to my beliefs, the elect are in Christ before they are born into this world by Election.

Those who believe not are condemned already-

Only if they are not God's elect, those Christ died for according to my views, they were reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they were enemies by Nature. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You see, the elect, even while they were enemies, that is unbelievers by nature, they still had been reconciled to God ! How ? Not by their Faith, but by the Death of God's Son, His Blood..

So, you see, my views are different from yours, and mine are supported by scripture.

God's wrath abides on the non-believer (John 3:36).

Not the Ones Christ died for, Gods wrath hath been propitiated in their behalf by His Blood

 

[Doubting Thomas]

dt


Quote:
That's false--only those in Christ are not under His wrath,
Well, the elect are always in Christ in the religious beliefs I hold, i don't know about your religion.


Quote:
and that is only through faith.
Thats not according to my beliefs, the elect are in Christ before they are born into this world by Election.

And there's the crux of the matter--your beliefs. I believe in orthodox historic Christianity, not heterodox hyper-calvinism.

I had written:
Quote:
Those who believe not are condemned already-
To which you replied...

Only if they are not God's elect,

Notice Christ doesn't list any exceptions in this passage based upon some alleged unconditional election. This distinction is between believers and non-believers. Period.

those Christ died for according to my views, they were reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they were enemies by Nature. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You see, the elect, even while they were enemies, that is unbelievers by nature, they still had been reconciled to God ! How ? Not by their Faith, but by the Death of God's Son, His Blood..

"Your views" cause you to fail to distinguish between the objective ground of reconcilation (Christ's atonement) and the subjective appropriation of the same (compare 2 Corithians 5:19 with 5:20). This is further demonstrated when we consider the next point. I had also written...


Quote:
God's wrath abides on the non-believer (John 3:36).
To which you replied...

Not the Ones Christ died for, Gods wrath hath been propitiated in their behalf by His Blood

First, again in John 3:36, Christ makes no distinction between and alleged unconditionally elect non-believers and all other non-believers--He distinguishes only between believers and non-believers in that passage. Second, look at Romans 3:25:
"whom God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness..." and Paul of course continues in verse 26 to state God "is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus". In other words, it's only through faith that the objectively meritorious propitiation by His blood is subjectively applied to the individual believer.

So, you see, my views are different from yours, and mine are supported by scripture.

Umm..no. Your views are supported by your presuppositions whereby you remove certains verses from context and totally ignore the clear meaning of others. No thanks--I'll take the clear Word of God as understood historically by the consensus of the Church to the man-made traditions of hyper-calvinism.

 

[savedbymercy]

dt

And there's the crux of the matter--your beliefs.

Yes, and supported by scripture if you did not notice.

 

[DHK]

dt



Yes, and supported by scripture if you did not notice.

To be fair Doubting Thomas providing as much Scripture as you, and went one step further. Instead of just copying and pasting Scripture (as any four year old can do), he went to the trouble of explaining each one and telling how they are relevant to his position, and how they contradict yours. Therein is the nature of debate; something you avoid.

 

[savedbymercy]

In Him Representatively !

We have Looked at the Fact that those who are in Christ are first in Him by Election, that is they were before the foundation of the World Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4 and even then, Grace was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Now How was Grace given them in Him before the world began ? Because He was their Head and Representative, and they were His Seed.

It's the same Principle as when its written that Levi Paid tithes to Melchizedek when he was yet in his Father's loins. Heb 7:9-10

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Now the same principle applies, The Chosen in Christ received or was given Grace while in the Spiritual Loins of their Spiritual Father Christ Jesus.

That's why Christ is seen as The Everlasting Father, because His seed was setup in Him from everlasting Isa 9:6

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

He could only be a Father if He has a progeny or offspring. Isa 53:10 confirms He does vs 10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Now, if all this be True, which I know it is, then Christ Chosen seed in Him before the world began, then there was no condemnation to them, not ever !

 

[DHK]

Now, if all this be True, which I know it is, then Christ Chosen seed in Him before the world began, then there was no condemnation to them, not ever !

How do you reconcile John 3:36 with what you have posted?

 

[savedbymercy]

How do you reconcile John 3:36 with what you have posted?

You mean how do you show that it contradicts the Truth of what I have already set forth ? That verse says nothing against there being no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

 

[DHK]

You mean how do you show that it contradicts the Truth of what I have already set forth ? That verse says nothing against there being no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you what the verse didn't say?
I didn't ask you about your mother either.
I didn't ask you about many things.

What I did ask you is:
How do you reconcile John 3:36 with the Scripture that you did post?

 

[Matt Black]

Fair question, SBM...

 

[savedbymercy]

Fair question, SBM...

I don't see anything to be reconciled of what I have posted and Jn 3:36. I believe Jn 3:36. If it is anything that contradicts what I have stated found in Jn 3:36, then show me how ! Thats the essence of debate. Give your view and explain it as I did mine, and show me by your view how mine is not supported by scripture. Just to go get verses and ask me to explain them is not debate at all. Show and explain why the verse you retrieve is contradicting what I have posted. Then I will respond. Thanks !

 

[savedbymercy]

How do you reconcile John 3:36 with what you have posted?

Please explain to us why it needs to be reconciled ! You have given no explanation as to why. Show us how Jn 3:36 contradicts what I have explained already, for I do not see it. Therefore, I see nothing to reconcile.