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No One Can Know if He or She is Elect! Period!

I am Considered Calvinist/Reformed/DoG and...

  • I know Jesus saved me and therefore I am elect!

    Votes: 16 94.1%

  • I don't know if Jesus saved me or that I am elect!

    Votes: 1 5.9%

  • Other Answer

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    17
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Q

quantumfaith

Active Member
HeirofSalvation said:
He doesn't "mis-represent" Calvinism........he UNDERSTANDS Calvinism Mex........he understands it at a "brass-tacks" level greater than YOU DO actually.

Any inteligent and honest person can see that thus far, (on this thread at least) that Winman and Dr. James and others actually have "thought-through" the Calvinist schema FAAAAARRR better than you or any other actual proclaimed "Calvinist" on this thread has.

There are some "Big-guns" of Calvinism on this board.............they just aren't on THIS thread yet.

Here are the people who understand "Calvinism" better than you:

On our side:

Winman
Van
Skandelon
Q.F. (even though he hasn't the inclination to debate it)
Dr. James

However....on the Calvinist side....there are ALSO some who actually have thought through the system as well and they are (a short-list)
Archangel (no-doubt he knows the system)
Luke (he does too)
Aresman (like Archangel......seems to merely dis-like confrontation even though they are BOTH smarter than anyone who has YET posted on this thread including myself)
JBH

Quite frankly..........unless someone of their Caliber speaks up.................we've seen little or nothing but some incredibly "Gibroni" defenses of Calvinism so far.....

These arguments are getting weak.......and they bore me.

Why don't you guys summon your big-guns? There are some brilliant Calvies on B.B............just none on this thread so far.

Winman knows Calvinism.......in fact.......he understands it better than YOU do.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the mention, I rarely chime in primarily because the position is settled for me. I am not a good "debater" as I can easily allow my emotions to overtake grace. I am indeed grateful for those such as yourself who can "hold their own". As per election, I rather like the words of Christopher JH Wright:

“The election of Israel is instrumental, not an end in itself. Israel was chosen as the means by which salvation could be extended throughout the earth. Israel as a nation was chosen to be the vehicle in which God’s mission would be extended to the whole world.” Not every person in Israel was saved; like Abraham before them, they had to place their faith in God to be saved.

“The election of Israel is fundamentally missional, not simply soteriological.” According to Wright, “If we allow the doctrine of election to become merely a secret calculus that determines who gets saved and who does not, we have lost touch with its original biblical intention.”
 
H

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
convicted1 said:
Well, to quote Weird Al Yankovic from the song "Amish Paradise", "Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart? Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art."

And furthermore, "A local boy kicked me in the butt last week, I just smiled at him and turned the other cheek."
Click to expand...

Sorry I couldn't respond to your post....I was "CHURNIN' lots of butter"................and was "on my knees day and night scoring points for the other life". I don't have time for your twaddle it appears. :tongue3:

<----yes, I did that from memory as well :laugh:
 
H

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aaron said:
No he doesn't. Neither do you. Luther knew it. So did Spurgeon and John Gill, and each embraced it. It is, after all the Gospel.
Click to expand...

Gonna pile on now that you decided to get my dander up...

I'll REPEAT the list of regular posters on B.B. who ACTUALLY understand Calvinism:


On our side:
Winman
Van
Skandelon
Q.F. (even though he hasn't the inclination to debate it)
Dr. James

However....on the Calvinist side....there are ALSO some who actually have thought through the system as well and they are (a short-list)
Archangel (no-doubt he knows the system)
Luke (he does too)
Aresman (like Archangel......seems to merely dis-like confrontation even though they are BOTH smarter than anyone who has YET posted on this thread including myself)
JBH

You will note that for no known reason............. you are inexplicably not included in that (admittedly short) list.
 
W

Winman

Active Member
Here is another article about a Calvinist doubting their salvation because they have no idea if they are elect.

Woman terrified that she is not one of God’s elect.
Can I Be Sure I am God's Elect
Don Fortner
FreeGraceRadio.com

This pastor said that a woman wrote Him saying that she was terrified that she might not be one of God’s Elect. She said that she knew that only the elect would be saved. She wanted to know how she could be sure. She said she has not been able to hardly sleep for six months. She said she has been tormented with blasphemous thoughts and had suffered continuously and wanted to know how she could be sure. She said she was about to go in the depression. He described it much worse than what I have written. It disturbed me just listening to Him and would make me want to repent of saying anything not found in the bible that would contribute to such mess as this.

The way this pastor describe her letter was horrible and He also said in his 40 years of preaching He has had several letters from people similar to this woman wanting to know how they could know they were one of God’s elect.

I must ask what kind of fruit is this. I listen to some of this pastor’s sermon and it seems like to me that some people worship their doctrine of election. It seems to be in all their preaching and all their conversation. This has answered what I had somewhat believed that the fruit of man’s doctrine of election does not help anybody to be saved. Something that causes people to be tormented because they don’t know if God loves them because they might not be God’s elect does not come from God but from people who can’t seem to break free from an idol, seemingly a doctrine of the devil and the devil loves to torment people.

Moses and Paul seem to have the heart to say to God that they didn’t want to be saved without others being saved. And here we have people who claim to be one of the elect believing that some can’t be saved, well brethren would you be tormented day and night if you believed you were going to hell for eternity because you were not one of the elect. Some accuse others of wanting to get credit, because they believe that anybody can believe, when that is not true. But my friend how can you be so proud as to believe you are one of God’s elect over those who are not.

Nobody can say it any better than Jesus when He said For God so loved the world that whosoever that believeth should not perish but have everlasting life.

Lord, thank you for the truths men have discovered but Lord please saved us from men’s doctrines that hinder your work of redemption. Lord since you suffered so much for us to be saved let us not worship a teaching that confuses people and causes some people to believe that you didn’t die for them when you said you did.

Blessings to all!
Click to expand...

Now, this letter is not from a Calvinist, but it is from a person who clearly sees that Calvinist theology causes serious doubt. People are tormented, even to the point of suicide, worried whether they are one of the fortunate elect. These persons realize that if they are not elect, then their faith MUST necessarily be a false faith. The ONLY way to know if your faith is REAL SAVING FAITH is to know for an absolute certainty that you are one of the elect.

Strangely, many Calvinists here do not understand their own theology.
 
C

convicted1

Guest
This song sums me up to the inth degree:



Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better loking each day.

To know me is to love me
I must be a heck of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.

I used to have a girlfriend
but she just couldn't compete
with all of these love starved women
who keep clamoring at my feet.

Well I prob'ly could find me another
but I guess they're all in awe of me.
Who cares, I never get lonesome
cause I treasure my own company.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day

To know me is to love me
I must be a heck of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.

I guess you could say I'm a loner,
a cowboy outlaw tough and proud.
I could have lots of friends if I want to
but then I wouldn't stand out from the crowd.

Some folks say that I'm egotistical.
Heck, I don't even know what that means.
I guess it has something to do with the way that I
fill out my skin tight blue jeans.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day

To know me is to love me
I must be a heck of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
 
W

Winman

Active Member
saturneptune said:
See, thats the difference. I was elected to be humble, you chose to be arrogant.
Click to expand...

You can't know if you were elected to be humble unless you persevere in humbleness till the day you die.

You might get real proud 20 years from now and realize you were not elected at all.
 
P

preacher4truth

Active Member
HeirofSalvation said:
He doesn't "mis-represent" Calvinism........he UNDERSTANDS Calvinism Mex........he understands it at a "brass-tacks" level greater than YOU DO actually.

Any inteligent and honest person can see that thus far, (on this thread at least) that Winman and Dr. James and others actually have "thought-through" the Calvinist schema FAAAAARRR better than you or any other actual proclaimed "Calvinist" on this thread has.

There are some "Big-guns" of Calvinism on this board.............they just aren't on THIS thread yet.

Here are the people who understand "Calvinism" better than you:

On our side:
Winman
Van
Skandelon
Q.F. (even though he hasn't the inclination to debate it)
Dr. James

However....on the Calvinist side....there are ALSO some who actually have thought through the system as well and they are (a short-list)
Archangel (no-doubt he knows the system)
Luke (he does too)
Aresman (like Archangel......seems to merely dis-like confrontation even though they are BOTH smarter than anyone who has YET posted on this thread including myself)
JBH

Quite frankly..........unless someone of their Caliber speaks up.................we've seen little or nothing but some incredibly "Gibroni" defenses of Calvinism so far.....

These arguments are getting weak.......and they bore me.

Why don't you guys summon your big-guns? There are some brilliant Calvies on B.B............just none on this thread so far.

Winman knows Calvinism.......in fact.......he understands it better than YOU do.
Click to expand...

Nothing but straw man accusations but nonetheless based on this, please do tell those who voted that they are assured of their salvation that according to you they are not assured. This is in essence what you are saying all the while calling out the 'troops' for support.

I wonder who else in the spirit world would drum up such accusations and support thereof as you are doing here by implication? Hmmm. (Bring in 'the Church Lady' here)

Your post shows a distinct misunderstanding of the Calvinist/Reformed/DoG position on assurance of salvation. Neither you nor Winman understand this theological position.

- Blessings
 
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A

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
HeirofSalvation said:
Gonna pile on now that you decided to get my dander up...

I'll REPEAT the list of regular posters on B.B. who ACTUALLY understand Calvinism:


On our side:
Winman
Van
Skandelon
Q.F. (even though he hasn't the inclination to debate it)
Dr. James

However....on the Calvinist side....there are ALSO some who actually have thought through the system as well and they are (a short-list)
Archangel (no-doubt he knows the system)
Luke (he does too)
Aresman (like Archangel......seems to merely dis-like confrontation even though they are BOTH smarter than anyone who has YET posted on this thread including myself)
JBH

You will note that for no known reason............. you are inexplicably not included in that (admittedly short) list.
Click to expand...
Your list excludes Ransom, who is not only the best expositor of the doctrines of grace on this board, but who also has the firmest grasp of the historical events in Geneva during the Reformation.

Looks like I'm in good company. You put the others in the company of one who saw Elvis in a U.F.O. :laugh:

But I mention Luther, Gil and Spurgeon who were prolific expositors of the doctrines of grace, and there were many more, whose scholarship is unquestioned. You would say they don't understand Calvinism either.
 
S

saturneptune

New Member
Winman said:
You can't know if you were elected to be humble unless you persevere in humbleness till the day you die.

You might get real proud 20 years from now and realize you were not elected at all.
Click to expand...
That was an inside joke for convicted1. I did not mean it to be a point counterpoint, sorry.
 
S

saturneptune

New Member
Aaron said:
Your list excludes Ransom, who is not only the best expositor of the doctrines of grace on this board, but who also has the firmest grasp of the historical events in Geneva during the Reformation.

Looks like I'm in good company. You put the others in the company of one who saw Elvis in a U.F.O. :laugh:

But I mention Luther, Gil and Spurgeon who were prolific expositors of the doctrines of grace, and there were many more, whose scholarship is unquestioned. You would say they don't understand Calvinism either.
Click to expand...
You left Calvin out of your list of theological giants. Maybe you and Rippon can get together and conjure up a glorification status for the saintly man. After all, the events in Geneva paralleled the events of the Revolutionary War that gave us freedom, liberty and the Bill of Rights. I know for a fact that Calvin got on his horse personally and rode throughout the streets of Geneva shouting "Servetus is coming, Servetus is coming." Maybe if you are really good for the remainder of your days, you will get the priviledge of shinning Calvin's crown in heaven.
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aaron said:
Amen. We know whom we have believed, and are persuaded that He is able . . .
Click to expand...

Another Amen from me folks:thumbsup:. Now my fathers people, Calvinistic Methodists always pointed to assurance ....
In William Williams hymn, "Guide me, O Thou Great Jehovah" (2nd Stanza)....

Tell me Thou art mine, Oh, Saviour,
Grant me an assurance clear...
 
S

saturneptune

New Member
Aaron said:
Amen. We know whom we have believed, and are persuaded that He is able . . .
Click to expand...
The idea of being able to lose your salvation or doubting your original salvation experience must be a great burden for anyone. I have read Hebrews 4:4-6, and just cannot see how those who believe in loss of salvation come to that conclusion.

The questions that cross my mind are, what does one have to do to lose their salvation, how does one regain it, and how does one hope that they do not die during a period of not being saved? God is not the author of confusion. It should be clear and settled in each Christian's mind. I suppose from time to time it is good to examine ones self, but a constant state of worry is not what the Lord intended. Really, I sort of feel sorry for these folks.
 
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