...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord", except...

[skypair]

The passage clearly is referring to the work of Holy Spirit in bringing salvation to a person. You cannot be saved (call Jesus "Lord") without the power of Holy Spirit. Can you see that?

Well, the passage is Paul instructing the Corinthians how to identify the Holy Spirit when they hear someone speaking. It isn't talking specifically about the salvation experience at all.

Now, do I agree that someone can be saved without the power of the Holy Spirit? No. My point was whether one calls that power "filling" as I do or "indwelling" as you do.

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

CanadyJD: God never fails, man fails, God is righteous, man is unrighteous. I had to say that since your one post has God failing, that is not true. He is perfect, He is righteous, He is right and we are the opposites of that. He wants a perfect Love from us, that perfect Love has to be free, we have to have a choice for love to be perfect. We do have a choice, we can choose to have Him as our Father, or we can choose to have satan as our father, there are two choices here, and only two. He does not say, "eenie meenie miney moe, this one I'll save; but this one has to go"; He watches us to see what we will do, if we search after Him, He will make sure we find Him. He will take a man in the bush, if that man is searching for Him, and put a missionary in front of Him.
joyce

So...then God doesn't really work to save anyone?

RB

 

[joyce]

no one can say, "Jesus is Lord", except

The question "so God doesn't work to save us"? He already did, didn't He? I mean His only begotten Son, came down here and did all the work that was necessary to save me, all I gotta do is have faith in what He did right? When man hears the gospel, he chooses to believe or not to believe, Jesus stands at the door knocking, do we let Him in or not, that is a personal choice there, yes the HS does draw us and works on us; but, don't we have to believe also? This could get very complicated couldnt' it? LOL
YSIC
Joyce

 

[canadyjd]

CanadyJD: God never fails, man fails, God is righteous, man is unrighteous. I had to say that since your one post has God failing, that is not true.

I didn't say God could fail, but just the opposite. That is why, "on one can say 'Jesus is Lord" except by the Spirit".

He wants a perfect Love from us, that perfect Love has to be free, we have to have a choice for love to be perfect.

First, He doesn't just "want" perfect love from us, He commands perfect love from us. Freely given love isn't what makes human love "perfect". It has to be a God wrought love to make it perfect.

We do have a choice, we can choose to have Him as our Father, or we can choose to have satan as our father, there are two choices here, and only two.....He watches us to see what we will do, if we search after Him, He will make sure we find Him....

Every single person on the planet chose to follow Satan. That is why the Apostle Paul can quote scripture that says, "There is none righteous, not even one.....There is none that seeks for God, no, not even one."

Since scripture says, "There is none that seeks for God...", your theory that God watches to see who will search for Him has some trouble.

BTW, you didn't address the passage. What does it mean that "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Spirit"?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Well, the passage is Paul instructing the Corinthians how to identify the Holy Spirit when they hear someone speaking. It isn't talking specifically about the salvation experience at all.

I disagee. Paul is chastizing some Corinthians who, apparently, where claiming they were "better Christians" because they had the gift of the Holy Spirit so as to speak in "tongues" (estatic utterances).

Paul begins a rather long discourse concerning gifts of the Holy Spirit by saying, "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Spirit". Paul is saying that all Christians become Christians in the same way...it is a work of Holy Spirit.

Therefore, despite whatever gift they were claiming to have, they couldn't boast since they were saved in the same way as everyone else who is saved....'by the Spirit'. Every gift of the Spirit given should benefit the whole community...and so on.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

.... yes the HS does draw us and works on us; but, don't we have to believe also?

Yes, salvation is appropriated by faith in Jesus, who He is and what He has done. Some maintain, and I agree, that Holy Spirit initiates the contact with us; drawing, illuminating, convicting and convincing us of the truth of Jesus Christ. No one can be saved unless Holy Spirit so moves, and no one upon whom the Spirit so moves will fail to come to Christ in a salvific relationship. The response of someone upon whom the Spirit moves will be to come to Christ in faith and to love God and His children. The faith is genuine. The love is genuine.

What most people have a problem with is that they want to maintain that a person's "free-will" must remain intact (otherwise their love for God is manipulated and not freely given and therefore not really the kind of love God wants) and that they can (and many do) nullify the work of Holy Spirit and reject the offer of salvation.

What I said earlier, then, was that if that were true, then Holy Spirit is failing to accomplish the will of God on earth. I do not believe it is true. God never fails.

peace to youraying:

 

[Hawkins]

When we say 'Jesus is Lord', it should be a praize of our Lord.

Yet it is blasphemous to say that 'Jesus is Lord' only but without His deity, and thus not by the Holy Spirit to say so.

 

[skypair]

Yes, salvation is appropriated by faith in Jesus, who He is and what He has done. Some maintain, and I agree, that Holy Spirit initiates the contact with us; drawing, illuminating, convicting and convincing us of the truth of Jesus Christ. No one can be saved unless Holy Spirit so moves, and no one upon whom the Spirit so moves will fail to come to Christ in a salvific relationship.

So you don't believe there is such a thing as "believing in vain?" 1Cor 15:2?? What have I got if I believe but don't "come?" The Holy Spirit did His job, right? What's missing that belief was "in vain?"

Do you know when people will actually be "compelled" to come into one kingdom or another, jd? In the tribulation. You will either of necessity choose the mark of the beast or Jesus Christ. Until then, no one will be "irresistibly" dragged into either God's or Satan's kingdom.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

So you don't believe there is such a thing as "believing in vain?" 1Cor 15:2?? What have I got if I believe but don't "come?" The Holy Spirit did His job, right? What's missing that belief was "in vain?"

What is missing is a transformed life that can only be wrought by the power of God. Those who "believe in vain" have honored God with their mouths, but their hearts remained far from him. Even though they made a profession of faith, their lives showed no evidence of a new birth. They were never "born again" by Holy Spirit.

.....In the tribulation. You will either of necessity choose the mark of the beast or Jesus Christ. Until then, no one will be "irresistibly" dragged into either God's or Satan's kingdom.

What did Jesus mean when He said, "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin"? Since everyone has sinned, then everyone has already accepted Satan's kingdom, whether they acknoweldge it or not. We didn't have to be dragged into Satan's kingdom, we went willingly.

What we need is to be freed by a new Master. And if the Son sets us free, we will be free indeed.

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

Those who "believe in vain" have honored God with their mouths, but their hearts remained far from him.

If you had another guess, what would that be? :laugh: I used to get asked that on 2 choice questions when I chose the wrong one and you have followed in my footsteps there.

Rom 10:9-10, etal. say we believe with the heart, not with the tongue. Whatever Paul was talking about in 1Cor 15:2 was a belief in our heart (mind, emotions, will) that a) was correct but vain in that it was not acted upon or b) was wrong and so could never result in salvation. We would have to say, in this case, that it was the former since Paul describes exactly what belief is the correct one.

What did Jesus mean when He said, "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin"?

Not sure what this has to do with the discussion. Apparently, you are saying that the "slave" has to be released before he/she can believe? Perhaps you could look at it this way -- the "slave" owes a crushing debt to sin and sees no way to pay it until he sees Christ. Then, like Paul, when he is saved, he owes a crushing debt to Christ -- is a "bondservant" to Christ -- with his life.

Salvation is that moment when we realize that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life" and we turn to Him. Notice, with the right belief, we still must turn from son to Christ. We aren't released before we turn -- we are only "informed" at that point, believing.

Since everyone has sinned, then everyone has already accepted Satan's kingdom, whether they acknoweldge it or not. We didn't have to be dragged into Satan's kingdom, we went willingly.

I think every person's life is a search for the "way out" from under the curse, don't you? Job #1 is to keep the curse from affecting us. Instinct #1 is to do it ourselves. But just as we exercised instinct #1, we can, when shown another option, choose another Way.

And let's face it --- I'd trusted myself all the way and only met with failure. If shown that God orders all things for good in this life and the next and conceding that He knows everything about the future, the only thing that prevents me from "getting out" is not choosing Christ. I'm "out," free, after I choose, not before.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

"no one can say 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit"

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

If you had another guess, what would that be? :laugh: I used to get asked that on 2 choice questions when I chose the wrong one and you have followed in my footsteps there.

I wasn't guessing, I wasn't following in your footsteps, and I am not wrong since I have based my comments of the sure truth of scripture.

Rom 10:9-10, etal. say we believe with the heart, not with the tongue. Whatever Paul was talking about in 1Cor 15:2 was a belief in our heart (mind, emotions, will) that a) was correct but vain in that it was not acted upon or b) was wrong and so could never result in salvation. We would have to say, in this case, that it was the former since Paul describes exactly what belief is the correct one.

So, you acknoweldge that salvation is more than "mental assent", it must produce authenticating works, otherwise it is "vain" and therefore useless and not genuinely salvific?

Salvation is that moment when we realize that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life" and we turn to Him. Notice, with the right belief, we still must turn from son to Christ. We aren't released before we turn -- we are only "informed" at that point, believing.

Believing without turning isn't true believing, it is only giving mental assent. Salvation is always about a transformed life.

I think every person's life is a search for the "way out" from under the curse, don't you? Job #1 is to keep the curse from affecting us. Instinct #1 is to do it ourselves. But just as we exercised instinct #1, we can, when shown another option, choose another Way.

You cannot "choose another Way" without Holy Spirit...."no one can say 'Jesus is Lord', but by the Spirit"

And let's face it --- I'd trusted myself all the way and only met with failure. If shown that God orders all things for good in this life and the next and conceding that He knows everything about the future, the only thing that prevents me from "getting out" is not choosing Christ. I'm "out," free, after I choose, not before.

But, again, you cannot "choose" without Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

So, you acknoweldge that salvation is more than "mental assent", it must produce authenticating works, otherwise it is "vain" and therefore useless and not genuinely salvific?

I would call the "athenticating work" sincere repentance towards God, yes.

Believing without turning isn't true believing, it is only giving mental assent.

Agreed. But many in your camp say that the turning comes after the mental assent. That basically it is the mental assent that saves because we cannot "do" anything -- it is all of God.

Salvation is always about a transformed life.

When I was young in Campus Crusade for Christ, they used to tell us, "Beware the 'reformed' life that has not been truly 'transformed.'" That's what I'm talking about. The case that some think it is impossible to live a "transformed life" without being saved is something the Bible doesn't regognize.

Judas appeared to have a transformed life and is the "object lesson" of the point. To this day, there are people who think he was saved and just made one "eensy weensy mistake" in betraying Jesus. Then, of course, there were the Pharisees as well.

You cannot "choose another Way" without Holy Spirit...."no one can say 'Jesus is Lord', but by the Spirit"
But, again, you cannot "choose" without Holy Spirit.

What amount of the Spirit does one need, jd? "filling?" "indwelling?" How about just the "wisdom" of the Spirit -- as in Prov 8? The whole passage speaks of the Spirit as God's wisdom and the last 2 verses sound like a call to salvation:

"For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

IOW, all we need to do is "find" the "wisdom" and we will find "life." We don't need to be "indwelt"/"regenerated by the Spirit first. We don't really need to be "filled" according to this passage. And notice it also says that we are capable of "finding" Wisdom, too! Notice in 8:1 how Wisdom cries out to be heard even of 'ye simple' and of 'fools!' I would we had never had the 'wisdom' of Augustine and Calvin to convince us otherwise! Perhaps now you will see that theirs is a competing wisdom with the with God's wisdom, the Holy Spirit.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

But many in your camp say that the turning comes after the mental assent. That basically it is the mental assent that saves because we cannot "do" anything -- it is all of God.

I didn't know I owned a camp.

When I was young in Campus Crusade for Christ, they used to tell us, "Beware the 'reformed' life that has not been truly 'transformed.'" That's what I'm talking about. The case that some think it is impossible to live a "transformed life" without being saved is something the Bible doesn't regognize.

I have never said a person cannot make improvements in their lives, character, etc, without Holy Spirit. We are talking about a salvific transformation in a person's life that has been wrought by God. That work of Holy Spirit always produces a transformed life.

Judas appeared to have a transformed life and is the "object lesson" of the point. To this day, there are people who think he was saved and just made one "eensy weensy mistake" in betraying Jesus. Then, of course, there were the Pharisees as well.

Judas is a good "object lesson". He said all the right things, but his life remained unchanged.

What amount of the Spirit does one need, jd? "filling?" "indwelling?" How about just the "wisdom" of the Spirit -- as in Prov 8? The whole passage speaks of the Spirit as God's wisdom and the last 2 verses sound like a call to salvation:

I wouldn't pretend to be able to "measure" Holy Spirit. A person needs Holy Spirit to work in their lives in order to be saved. "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit."

I do not see the need to quantify what amount of (involvement? work?) Holy Spirit that one "needs" to accomplish salvation. I am satisfied with scripture that Holy Spirit is necessary and leave it at that.

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

I didn't know I owned a camp.

I didn't say that you LEAD it but that you FOLLOW it. :laugh:

I wouldn't pretend to be able to "measure" Holy Spirit.

Well, in this case it pays to know how much Spirit is needed -- since that is the case that Calvinism is making. What is it -- indwelling, filling, or knowledge and understanding? "Division of the brethren" is at stake here!

I do not see the need to quantify what amount of (involvement? work?) Holy Spirit that one "needs" to accomplish salvation. I am satisfied with scripture that Holy Spirit is necessary and leave it at that.

Again, this is a KEY issue in correct sotierology so "stretch" yourself. If the Spirit were speaking to you, which would you choose?

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

Well, in this case it pays to know how much Spirit is needed -- since that is the case that Calvinism is making. What is it -- indwelling, filling, or knowledge and understanding? "Division of the brethren" is at stake here!

Again, this is a KEY issue in correct sotierology so "stretch" yourself. If the Spirit were speaking to you, which would you choose?

Scripture does not speak of "how much" Holy Spirit is needed, only that He is needed. I am willing to accept what the bible says. "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit". I see no reason to "stretch" myself beyond the clear teaching of scripture.

You, however, cannot accept the clear teaching of scripture. Rather than form an understanding of sotierology around what the bible says, you are developing your understanding of soteriology from "speculative doctrines" and "philosophical theology."

That is why you cannot accept what scripture says; it doesn't fit your "speculative doctrines" and "philosophical theology."

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

Scripture does not speak of "how much" Holy Spirit is needed, only that He is needed.

But you, or at least your theology, do/does. It claims that "indwelling" is required because that is what regeneration is. If you want to be perfectly scriptural, you'll quit teaching that "speculative doctrine" that, as you say, cannot be found in scripture.

You, however, cannot accept the clear teaching of scripture. Rather than form an understanding of sotierology around what the bible says, you are developing your understanding of soteriology from "speculative doctrines" and "philosophical theology."

I guess you have read my thread on "Calvinism and the SBC," eh? Trying to turn the tables on me, right?

Let's go back to your citation then. "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit". "except by what of the Spirit? By the indwelling of the Spirit? by the filling of the Spirit? by the revelation of the Spirit? Which level is absolutely necessary in order to say "Jesus is Lord?"

We can go back to Rom 1:19-21 and find out. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;" IOW, an heathen could say that God exists by the revelation of the Spirit that is in "things that are made." In Rom 2, the Gentiles show "the law written on their hearts." Again, neither indwelling of the Spirit nor the filling of the Spirit is seen here. The law was revealed by the Holy Spirit to them.

And again I go back and say that the Holy Spirit is a spirit -- the spiritual aspect of God (along with being God). His revelation is like the wind (John 3). It comes and goes and you neither know from where nor where it is leading. But you can hear it, feel it, perceive and understand it. And when you make a statement of God's truth and wisdom, you do so by the revelation of the Spirit.

And the one place where this whole thing is resolved is in the OT. The OT saints were NEVER indwelt/regenerated. They couldn't be -- the Spirit couldn't be sent until Christ was resurrected, "And if I go, I will send you a Comforter..." So how would any OT saint say any truth at all about God if indwelling was required?? No, jd, it is more likely Paul meant that it is either by filling or by revelation by which one says "Jesus is Lord."

Go back to Prov 8. It is very clear that we can seek the Spirit, the Wisdom of God. It is also clear that we can find Him and God will grant grace to those who do. What your theology is setting up is an unbiblical "system" where man will not seek and cannot find until he is already indwelt and saved. The origins of that "system," accepted by Catholics and Reformers alike, was infant baptism wherein one was regenerated before believing anything. Now the "table is set" for that person to "do nothing" of themselves to be saved -- because they already are saved by baptism!

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

But you, or at least your theology, do/does. It claims that "indwelling" is required because that is what regeneration is. If you want to be perfectly scriptural, you'll quit teaching that "speculative doctrine" that, as you say, cannot be found in scripture.

I don't remember teaching that "indwelling" means "regeneration". I don't believe that. I believe "indwelling" and "regeneration" are two separate works of Holy Spirit.

Let's go back to your citation then. "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Spirit". "except by what of the Spirit? By the indwelling of the Spirit? by the filling of the Spirit? by the revelation of the Spirit? Which level is absolutely necessary in order to say "Jesus is Lord?"

It is simply inappropriate of you to speak of God, Holy Spirit, as if He were a "thing" to be measured. Scripture doesn't speak that way of God, Holy Spirit, and neither should you. "except by the Spirit" simply means that Holy Spirit is essential to anyone making a profession of faith. No one can make a genuine profession of faith apart from Holy Spirit.

We can go back to Rom 1:19-21 and find out. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;" IOW, an heathen could say that God exists by the revelation of the Spirit that is in "things that are made." In Rom 2, the Gentiles show "the law written on their hearts." Again, neither indwelling of the Spirit nor the filling of the Spirit is seen here.

And neither was anyone saved by that general revelation, since they all turned away and followed their own lusts and fell under the condemnation of God.

And again I go back and say that the Holy Spirit is a spirit -- the spiritual aspect of God (along with being God). His revelation is like the wind (John 3). It comes and goes and you neither know from where nor where it is leading. But you can hear it, feel it, perceive and understand it. And when you make a statement of God's truth and wisdom, you do so by the revelation of the Spirit.

I notice you have subtlely attempted to change scripture to fit what you want it to mean. You are doing that because your soteriology is based on "speculative doctrines" and "philosophical theology." Therefore, you have to change scripture to make it fit your pre-concieved ideas.

The "revelation" of Holy Spirit is not spoken of in John 3. It is the Spirit that is spoken of as moving where He wills, not His revelation as you have stated. So is everyone that is born of the Spirit, it is according to His will.

And the one place where this whole thing is resolved is in the OT. The OT saints were NEVER indwelt/regenerated.

You are simply incorrect. Many OT saints spoke of the Spirit of God being upon them. David prayed that God would not remove His Spirit from him. Samson didn't realize the Spirit of God had left him. Since your base premise is easily shown to be flawed, everything else you wrote can be dismissed.

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

I don't remember teaching that "indwelling" means "regeneration". I don't believe that.

Then you already don't believe Calvinist sotierology. Good!

It is simply inappropriate of you to speak of God, Holy Spirit, as if He were a "thing" to be measured.

So we can't speak of someone being "filled" because that implies total and complete focus on the Truth? You're wandering into speculation again, bro.

I notice you have subtlely attempted to change scripture to fit what you want it to mean.

I assume you are speaking of Prov 8. Did you read it? Who or What would YOU say is being spoken of?

The "revelation" of Holy Spirit is not spoken of in John 3. It is the Spirit that is spoken of as moving where He wills, not His revelation as you have stated. So is everyone that is born of the Spirit, it is according to His will.

It the Holy Spirit didn't reveal Christ and God, you would never know He was come and gone. And so is everyone who is born again. They reveal/glorify God and Christ cause that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

You are simply incorrect. Many OT saints spoke of the Spirit of God being upon them. David prayed that God would not remove His Spirit from him. Samson didn't realize the Spirit of God had left him. Since your base premise is easily shown to be flawed, everything else you wrote can be dismissed.

Well, that brings up a good proof then --- can the indwelling Holy Spirit leave us??? NO! Which is specifically why you are wrong about the OT saints being indwelt.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

So we can't speak of someone being "filled" because that implies total and complete focus on the Truth? You're wandering into speculation again, bro.!

You can speak of somone being "filled" with Holy Spirit, because that terminology is consistant with scripture. You spoke of measuring "how much" Holy Spirit is needed to be saved, as if God, Holy Spirit were a thing to be measured. Again, that is inappropriate.

It the Holy Spirit didn't reveal Christ and God, you would never know He was come and gone. And so is everyone who is born again. They reveal/glorify God and Christ cause that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

You stated that John 3 was speaking of the revelation of Holy Spirit. I pointed out that John 3 is speaking of the person of Holy Spirit, as moving where He wills. You are again trying to change the clear meaning of scripture. Stop that!!

Well, that brings up a good proof then --- can the indwelling Holy Spirit leave us??? NO! Which is specifically why you are wrong about the OT saints being indwelt.

It is clear from OT passages that Holy Spirit came upon some OT saints and also, at times, left them. When He came upon them, it was to empower them to accomplish the purposes of God. He was a temporary presence upon them and in their lives.

We know from NT passages that Holy Spirit will not leave a truly born again believer. He is given as the pledge/promise of God that the promise of the resurrection and our future as children of God and heirs to the promises are true. He is a permanant presence indwelling.

We must decide if their is a major distinction (other than temporary/permenant) between the Hebrew "upon" and the Greek "indwelling" before we could determine if OT saints were "indwelt" as NT believers are.

peace to youraying: