No One on this Board Supports Abortion

[OldRegular]

I can see that the abortion mills will be back and running by the new President. McCain and Palin just wasn't able to win this election because of the news channels. Someone wanted Obana in office and how he always had all the money is kinda strange to me. I cannot remember any candidate always having the ready funds and spent so much money. I don't know what all these changes he says he is gonna do, but you can bet it won't be good for the common people or christains. The Rowe Vs Wade will not be of any importance to them to try to change it. There is two places mention in the BIble about Raechel weeping for her children and was not conforted because they are not. For several years now it ihas seems that Raechel is still again weeping for her children and will not be conforted for they are not.

You raise a very important question which I have also raised and should be answered: Where did Obama get all the money he raised, reported in excess of 600 million, and some coming from foreign sources. Why does Obama get a pass on this?:BangHead:

I often think of the Scripture about Rachel weeping for her children when I think about abortion; almost daily. My wife used to work at a Crisis Pregnancy Center. She has received calls at 2-3:00 AM from young girls weeping for the child they aborted.:tear: :tear:

 

[OldRegular]

Face reality, mate. The woman had no choice for her self-imposed dilemma. We are not all following the same moral values, and we have to realize that. We are in the real world.

Cheers,

Jim

You face reality, mate!:BangHead: The woman had at least two choices: Before she got pregnant and before she killed her own child. The child she killed had none!:tear: And there certainly isn't anything to cheer about!

 

[Baptist Believer]

You face reality, mate!:BangHead: The woman had at least two choices: Before she got pregnant and before she killed her own child. The child she killed had none!:tear: And there certainly isn't anything to cheer about!

I'm against abortion except to save the life of the mother, but at the same time I think we need to concede that there are some women who have had little or no say about getting pregnant.

I know one woman who was raped and became pregnant. She decided to have the child and has raised him. He is now in his senior year in high school, trying to figure out which college scholarship to accept. :thumbs: However, not all women are as fortunate to have a strong support system like she did. Even though she was raped (she didn't advertise that very much because it was too painful to have on the table as a topic for discussion), she faced a lot of criticism and false rumors from church people because she became pregnant before she was married. If she had simply aborted the child, she would not have faced alienation from "God's" people.

In college, I also knew a frightening number of other young women who were raped when they were in high school, often on dates with "Christian" males. Most of those rapes were unreported because of "he said"-"she said" scenarios. Any of those situations could have ended up in pregnancies.

Then there are those young men and women who allow themselves to be overcome by their passions, as most of us know, is an easy trap to fall into. Often, they have no real means or maturity to bring a child into the world and face a stigma from self-righteous church people and other moralists (who seem more interested in condemning than curing sin). Instead of knowing they can go to the people of God for help, they take what purports to be an easier way and end their pregnancy.

Until Christians can truly become pro-life (not just anti-abortion), we are a major driving impetus for abortion. :BangHead:

 

[Benjamin]

What is being said in this thread is:

1. Abortion is wrong. (true)
2. Back alley abortions which are also wrong will happen if abortion is not allowed. (true)
3. Therefore, abortions should be allowed because that then makes it a rightful choice. (Can not be true, as two wrongs don’t makes a right) The reasoning above is clearly a fallacy of logic, simple and basic introductory informal logic.

Then there is the argument:

• We are not all following the same moral values.
• I fought for freedoms and that includes choice.
• Therefore, people should have the choice to follow there own values.

This is another fallacy of reasoning; a simple “groupthink fallacy”. “Substituting pride of membership in a group for reason and deliberation in arriving to a position on an issue.” Listed as one of the top ten fallacies of all time by the authors of Critical Thinking a college text for PHI 103, Intro to Logic. It goes on to say, “One obvious form of this fallacy includes national pride, or nationalism- a powerful and fierce emotion that can lead to blind endorsement of a country’s policies or practices. Example: “My country right or wrong.” This explicitly discourages critical thinking and encourages blind patriotism.

A man in my class said, “You Christians (rhetoric downplayer) want to impose your values and morals on other people in a free society.” My answer: Values and morals exist in any civil society. Are you opposed to a ban of polygamy? Are you opposed to sexual relations between a consenting child and an adult? How about adult brother and sister, father/daughter, mother/son? Where do these values and morality come from; they must come from a conscience, no? I suppose you don’t think it alright to vote your conscience? What IF the majority of people start to decide these things are OK, then does that make them OK values? Another question; If these things were ever allowed do you think we, as a society, ever could/should go back and impose them as immoral values on others in this country? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED WITH ABORTION IN THIS COUNTRY!!! What is next! When will you put YOUR foot down?

Another person said, “I believe abortion is wrong, but I don’t think I should be able to tell other people that they can’t do it if they don’t want that child.” My reply: Do you think it is a life then? Yes, she does. Do you thing it is killing that life and it is murder? Yes, she does and would never do it. So you clearly believe it is wrong? Yes. Why do you believe that a mother should NOT be able to chop up her three year old with an ax if she doesn’t want it? What is the difference? Well… the unborn baby is part of her body. It doesn’t have the same DNA as she does; does it? No, but it is dependent on the mother to live. The three year old isn’t? How about a six month old? So the only difference is that it is IN her body and that makes killing/murder OK??? Don’t you think that is denying your conscience and giving into the mother who selfishly figures it isn’t convenient to let this life come into the world and therefore is OK to commit murder and your only support you’ve given for this argument is that you shouldn’t be able to impose your values or morals on others? Your conclusion is: Murder of an innocent child is OK for other people under certain conditions regardless of what you believe. You refuse to vote your conscience on this because of WHY??? When will you draw the line??? Honey, I believe you’ve been taught that to go against your conscience is the right thing to do politically. Who is the god over your conscience that you will listen to about how to vote?


(Jas 1:8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

(Jas 4:4) Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

(Jas 4:7) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

(Jas 4:8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

 

[Revmitchell]

We should then make all murder legal so long as it is done in a sterile setting and supervised by a doctor. In fact we should be able to hire a doctor to commit the murder for us.

 

[Jim1999]

Baptist Believer, that is the most logical presentation I have seen on the topic in a long time. Crngatulations.

Quote: I'm against abortion except to save the life of the mother...

One question. Does this include D&C's and other prebirth and post insemination invasive surgical actions? No hidden agenda,,just asking the question.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Benjamin]

I'm against abortion except to save the life of the mother, but at the same time I think we need to concede that there are some women who have had little or no say about getting pregnant.

I know one woman who was raped and became pregnant. She decided to have the child and has raised him. He is now in his senior year in high school, trying to figure out which college scholarship to accept. :thumbs: However, not all women are as fortunate to have a strong support system like she did. Even though she was raped (she didn't advertise that very much because it was too painful to have on the table as a topic for discussion), she faced a lot of criticism and false rumors from church people because she became pregnant before she was married. If she had simply aborted the child, she would not have faced alienation from "God's" people.

In college, I also knew a frightening number of other young women who were raped when they were in high school, often on dates with "Christian" males. Most of those rapes were unreported because of "he said"-"she said" scenarios. Any of those situations could have ended up in pregnancies.

Then there are those young men and women who allow themselves to be overcome by their passions, as most of us know, is an easy trap to fall into. Often, they have no real means or maturity to bring a child into the world and face a stigma from self-righteous church people and other moralists (who seem more interested in condemning than curing sin). Instead of knowing they can go to the people of God for help, they take what purports to be an easier way and end their pregnancy.

Until Christians can truly become pro-life (not just anti-abortion), we are a major driving impetus for abortion. :BangHead:

Buddy, you make a statement, then give three paragraphs of a lame scapegoat arguement giving reason for pro choice. Talk about double-minded! :BangHead:

 

[JustChristian]

I am not afraid to stand before my God and give account for my stand regarding abortion. Then, if I supported an outright ban on abortion in this plural society and equal rights, and it returns to butchering young ladies in the back allies and illegitimate doctors performing abortions, I won't have to stand before God for supporting murder.

The solution lies in proper counselling beginning with a 5 year old girl called a daughter. It continues with support and counsel for the young girl who falls into sin and gets pregnant. Will you stand before God and give account for why you did not provide adequate counsel?

I fear this question is not a yes or no thing. It isn't that simple.

On voting; I fought a war and risked my life to protect a certain thing called freedom. We have to vote responsibly and sometimes a proper candidate doesn't always embrace all the moral values we do. They are still the best choice for the country at large. I will vote regardless. I fought for that right and I will not waste it as long as I live and others are still fighting and dying for my rights.

Cheers,

Jim

I agree with you. If Roe vs. Wade were reversed tomorrow we'd go back, I assume, to the conditions that prevailed before that decision. The states would determine the legality of abortion. Women would still have unplanned pregnancies. I'm just stating the facts. I'm not making any moral judgment.

As they did before R vs. Wade and if they lived in a state where abortion was illegal they would either:

1) Have the child and deal with the impact on their life,

2) Travel to a state or country where abortion is legal and have an abortion there,

3) Self-abort with a coat hanger, etc.

4) Go to an unlicensed abortionist.

Option 2 would only be available to the wealthier women. Poor woman would choose options 3 or 4 if they didn't want to have a child.

The number of abortions went up sharply after Roe vs. Wade. However, I believe the numbers were tremendously understated before. I think we only know about the botched abortions that ended up with the woman in the hospital or under medical care. Who would report something that's illegal? That's like driving by a police car, stopping, and telling him you ran a stop light a mile back. That would be the moral thing to do but how many here would do that?

Of course with abortions legal; everywhere we can safely assume that there are more of them now after R vs. W.

Personally, I think abortion is a lot like suicide. Suicide is illegal but does that stop people from attempting it? I don't think so. If a woman thinks she has a strong enough reason to self-abort or go to an illegal abortionist she will do it. Self-abortion could only be punished if the woman seeks medical help if it goes wrong and you'd have to put the woman in jail for murder (?) Illegal abortionists could be raided and I would argue that both the abortionist go to jail. These outcomes don't seem to be what we'd want to happen from my perspective.

Does anyone remember the movie "Dirty Dancing?" It was about a wealthy Jewish girl played by Jennifer Grey falling in love with Patrick Swayze, a kid from the Bronx or Brooklyn who worked at a Catskill Jewish retreat as a dance instructor. A female dance instructor got pregnant by a rich Jewish boy headed for an Ivy League collage. The rich kid backed off. Patrick paid for an unlicensed abortionist who botched the job and the girl probably would have died if Jennifer hadn't gotten her father (a doctor) to intervene. What did R vs W have to do with this? Nothing.

My view is we have to change the underlying circumstances that lead women to choose abortion. These are social (unmarried pregnancies) as well as economic. As the economy worsens married women with 3 kids start to chose abortion because they can't afford to have another one. Reaching out with the gospel can reduce abortions by instilling in women an understanding of the moral implications of what they're doing. This terrible plague that has come upon America must be attacked at its roots. It can't be dealt with by merely voting Republican and screaming 50 million murders.

 

[JustChristian]

BB
You have peddle this nonsense before and been called on it. The Republicans could do little to nothing about abortion until they took control of the House in 1994 since the democrat speaker controls all legislation that is brought up for vote. When the Republicans took control of Congress they twice passed a bill outlawing Partial Birth Abortion and Clinton vetoed it each time. After Bush took office the bill was passed and signed into law. Also signed into law was a bill , which thwarted BO's efforts in the Illinois Legislature, that required Medical treatment be provided for aborted children born alive. I believe Senator Graham of my state was author of that bill. The Republican Party is still pro-life.

It is true that some Republican appointees to the Supreme Court, Souter and Kennedy, pulled a Carter.

Partial birth abortion law was one thing that was done by Bush. I agree. But the abortion mill ground on. What percentage of total abortions does partial birth represent? My guess would be less than 1%. What was done about the other 99%+?

 

[Palatka51]

To all those that have posted in this thread;

I agree with all those that did not support the pro-choice candidate. Those of you that have given support to the culture of death, by your vote, have for the past several months (if not for the last year) or more, continue to defend what is the result of sin. All of those that are on the side for life have begged and warned you not to support a candidate that was this involved in this hideous practice. You have not changed your mind nor turned your hearts from this ungodliness. Now the guilt of your support prompts you to start threads like this to make a last ditch effort to get the rest of us to compromise our stance for life. You can bring all the excuses you wish to assuage your conscience by even blaming Bush and the Republicans for not having not done enough.

Well is is not enough that you have set the gains of the pro-life movement back another generation or more by your vote?

Frankly I am weary for you. You are never going to repent of this until you realize it is too late. My hope is that I never grow weary in praying for this side of the Christian Community that yolk together with those that have an agenda for death and power. raying:

 

[JustChristian]

To all those that have posted in this thread;

I agree with all those that did not support the pro-choice candidate. Those of you that have given support to the culture of death, by your vote, have for the past several months (if not for the last year) or more, continue to defend what is the result of sin. All of those that are on the side for life have begged and warned you not to support a candidate that was this involved in this hideous practice. You have not changed your mind nor turned your hearts from this ungodliness. Now the guilt of your support prompts you to start threads like this to make a last ditch effort to get the rest of us to compromise our stance for life. You can bring all the excuses you wish to assuage your conscience by even blaming Bush and the Republicans for not having not done enough.

Well is is not enough that you have set the gains of the pro-life movement back another generation or more by your vote?

Frankly I am weary for you. You are never going to repent of this until you realize it is too late. My hope is that I never grow weary in praying for this side of the Christian Community that yolk together with those that have an agenda for death and power. raying:

''

As I discussed in my post, it's simply not that black and white. Respond to what I said.

 

[ray Marshall]

You raise a very important question which I have also raised and should be answered: Where did Obama get all the money he raised, reported in excess of 600 million, and some coming from foreign sources. Why does Obama get a pass on this?:BangHead:

I often think of the Scripture about Rachel weeping for her children when I think about abortion; almost daily. My wife used to work at a Crisis Pregnancy Center. She has received calls at 2-3:00 AM from young girls weeping for the child they aborted.:tear: :tear:

It is indeed sad from the experience your wife has had of women calling her and crying. What a evil world it has turned into. Television can be a good thing but again it has turned into so much trdegy. Our young is blasted with evil every day.

 

[Jim1999]

Do all those who outright fight against abortion also fight against stemcell research which had saved many a life, including those good people who so vehemently opposed all abortions?

Do you also fight against all D&C's which includes the abortion of a fetus in the beginning stages? This is almost a routine surgical procedure for women.

How many of you has provided a home and financial assistance for a young girl in peril? In the old days, if a girl got pregnant, she was hid in the back bedroom as a disgrace to the family.

How many young girls have you counselled, and by this I mean non-judgemental counselling?

How many of you also bellyached about welfare benefits for the girl who has her child and trys to raise it?

Cheers, I am done,

Jim

 

[Don]

Do all those who outright fight against abortion also fight against stemcell research which had saved many a life, including those good people who so vehemently opposed all abortions?

YES. Embryonic stem cells have not been shown to have the same effect as adult stem cells; in fact, the latest news story on this subject regards a woman who had her trachea replaced using her own adult stem cells.

You're darn tootin' I'll fight against embryonic stem cell research, when we have proven that there is no need for embryonic stem cells!

 

[JustChristian]

YES. Embryonic stem cells have not been shown to have the same effect as adult stem cells; in fact, the latest news story on this subject regards a woman who had her trachea replaced using her own adult stem cells.

You're darn tootin' I'll fight against embryonic stem cell research, when we have proven that there is no need for embryonic stem cells!

Do you speak out against "test tube babies." This procedure allows many couples who cannot have children to have a child. However, it leaves behind a large number of frozen embryos most of which will be discarded (murdered).

 

[Don]

Do you speak out against "test tube babies." This procedure allows many couples who cannot have children to have a child. However, it leaves behind a large number of frozen embryos most of which will be discarded (murdered).

Yes, I do. Best I can find in my research, there have been about 300,000 births from in vitro fertilization since around 1981. That comes out to about 11,111 per year.

Compare that with approximately 100,000 children a year waiting to be adopted. That number could have been 89,000 if people would consider adoption, rather than a procedure that, at best, has a 59% chance of success.

 

[JustChristian]

Yes, I do. Best I can find in my research, there have been about 300,000 births from in vitro fertilization since around 1981. That comes out to about 11,111 per year.

Compare that with approximately 100,000 children a year waiting to be adopted. That number could have been 89,000 if people would consider adoption, rather than a procedure that, at best, has a 59% chance of success.

Why shouldn't this procedure be made illegal just like abortion?

 

[Don]

Why shouldn't this procedure be made illegal just like abortion?

That's funny; the Catholics were arguing to make it illegal, simply because of the number of embryos that were being discarded due to the success rate percentages.

 

[OldRegular]

I'm against abortion except to save the life of the mother, but at the same time I think we need to concede that there are some women who have had little or no say about getting pregnant.

I know one woman who was raped and became pregnant. She decided to have the child and has raised him. He is now in his senior year in high school, trying to figure out which college scholarship to accept. :thumbs: However, not all women are as fortunate to have a strong support system like she did. Even though she was raped (she didn't advertise that very much because it was too painful to have on the table as a topic for discussion), she faced a lot of criticism and false rumors from church people because she became pregnant before she was married. If she had simply aborted the child, she would not have faced alienation from "God's" people.

In college, I also knew a frightening number of other young women who were raped when they were in high school, often on dates with "Christian" males. Most of those rapes were unreported because of "he said"-"she said" scenarios. Any of those situations could have ended up in pregnancies.

Then there are those young men and women who allow themselves to be overcome by their passions, as most of us know, is an easy trap to fall into. Often, they have no real means or maturity to bring a child into the world and face a stigma from self-righteous church people and other moralists (who seem more interested in condemning than curing sin). Instead of knowing they can go to the people of God for help, they take what purports to be an easier way and end their pregnancy.

Until Christians can truly become pro-life (not just anti-abortion), we are a major driving impetus for abortion. :BangHead:

So what is your point? I am pro life. Those who support the democrat party, the party of death, are pro abortion whether they admit it or not.

 

[OldRegular]

Do all those who outright fight against abortion also fight against stemcell research which had saved many a life, including those good people who so vehemently opposed all abortions?

I oppose fetal stem cell research!

Do you also fight against all D&C's which includes the abortion of a fetus in the beginning stages? This is almost a routine surgical procedure for women.

You are incorrect. All D&C's are not for abortion!

How many of you has provided a home and financial assistance for a young girl in peril? In the old days, if a girl got pregnant, she was hid in the back bedroom as a disgrace to the family.

I have!

How many young girls have you counselled, and by this I mean non-judgemental counselling?

My wife has!

How many of you also bellyached about welfare benefits for the girl who has her child and trys to raise it?

I have complained about people who are too lazy to work! I know young women who have children and with the support of their family are able to raise the child without welfare.

Cheers, I am done,

Jim[/QUOTE]

:thumbs: